How does the Chicago dial compare to radio in Europe?

[audioguy]

This week, I am on assignment in Nuremberg, Germany. Whenever I travel, I always take along my trusty multi-band Sony. It tunes LW, MW, SW, and FM. Not a great performer, but not the worst I've used by a long shot.

So what is on the air here in Germany? Lots of interesting things.

LW: about 6-7 stations, day or night. A mix of music and news from various European countries. Mostly Germany, but also France and some others that I couldn't readily identify.

MW: heaps of stations! And you know what the great thing is? Almost NO co-channel interference! You can tune in a listenable signal on almost every channel, day or night. I only found about two that had co-channel interference, and even those weren't bad. What do you hear? Lots of talk in a multitude of languages, of course, but also lots of music-- all kinds. Several classical stations, Armed Forces radio, hip-hop, easy listening, pops, oldies, and even (believe it or not), country. Germans are crazy about the American west. Some countries heard on MW at night (clearly): Germany, France, Italy, Spain, England, and Russia. But the best thing is: no IBOC and no interference-laden channels with hundreds of carriers fighting it out. What a pleasure to listen to!

FM: about 20 easily-tuned signals with excellent audio quality inside my hotel room. A very wide mix of music and talk. Many stations offer different programs and types of music at different times of the day. I heard up to 3 stations playing classical, but sometimes they program jazz or other eclectic types. You also hear just about any kind of popular music in English or German, hip-hop, country, German folk music, band music, etc. Quite a lot to choose from.

I would say that Europe has a lot more to offer the radio listener than the Chicago dial does. You hear none of the grungy, distorted signals we have to suffer with. Stations can be tuned in clearly without co-channel interference. A good quality tuner would be a great source of enjoyment here.

Last time when I reported from France, someone questioned whether I was really there. Well, you can check my IP address... they're always posted below the comments.

 

[avtosalon]

My observation of radio when I went to Ukraine (in Eastern Europe) was alot different than yours.

I brought an AM Stereo/FM Stereo Sony Walkman with a rotary tuning dial. I heard that digital tuners made for the U.S. do not work because some European stations broadcast on frequencies that we do not use (example: FM stations with an even number after the decimal point).

I received no reception at all on AM, but the FM dial was totally filled with Pop/CHR and not much else. There must have been about 25 stations all with same format! Unlike Chicago, where there seems to be a law that every station needs to have a unique format (1-country, 1-classical, 1-classic rock, 1-rhythmic CHR, 1-oldies, 1-AAA, etc.), I noticed just the opposite over there. Virtually every station was doing the same thing. If you like Pop/CHR/Dance, than Eastern Europe is the place for you.

Also, they don't have a 'non-commercial' part of the FM dial, so 88-92 FM were commercial stations. There was a CD/radio boombox in my hotel room, and I noticed that the radio was only one band: FM. Apparently some Europeans are no longer using AM because most people live in dense/urban areas where AM reception can be difficult.

I noticed that many of the stations were not local. Instead they were full-power repeaters of programming originating from another large city. The stations did not seem to have call letters, instead using names like Prosto FM, Europa Plus, Hit Radio, Russkoye Radio, and Gala Radio.

The audio quality seemed to be much richer and fuller than our downtown stations. I suspect the reason for that is the low wattage that is required when a station transmits from a tall skyscraper.

I saw lots of outdoor advertising promoting various stations, probably more than we have here. I was in a taxi (which costs alot less than a Chicago taxi), and the driver was playing heavy metal on his CD player. I asked him "where can I hear some hard rock 'n roll on the radio here?" He said that the only show is on 1 station during the weekend.

 

[cyberdad]

My experience with Europe is fairly similar to audioguy's. The most obvious difference from Chicago...or most any other North American City....is the continuing (if dwindling) use of the longwave band. The other notable difference is the fact that there's still a fair amount of music on AM (or Mediumwave, as it's commonly called across the pond). I find what's available on FM fairly comparable with North America in terms quantity and quality. Although that said, there's a bit more variety and culture in Europe....something that's true on all bands.

I can't say I've really noticed anything particularly different about co-channel stuff....but I do think the overall level of stations interfering with each other....day and night....is somewhat less over there.

I'm leaving in about 48 hours for a week in the UK and Germany, so I'll post if anything else jumps out at me.

 

[audioguy]

I am now back home, and wanted to post a few comments about the radio I use.

My Sony multi-band radio has analog (rotary dial) tuning so it works anywhere, regardless of the tuning system. European and Asian countries use 9 kHz tuning increments on Medium Wave rather than 10 kHz as we do. On FM, they typically use 100 kHz increments rather than 200 kHz, so the ability to tune e.g. even frequencies is advantageous. I prefer analog tuning for casual band scanning. It is much easier to tune up and down the band with an analog tuner to hear what is on.

European stations go by names rather than call letters... as do many U.S. stations, except for legal ID's. It is typical to see names like "Bayern 1" or "Sky FM" show up on the RDS display in the car. Of course my Sony portable radio, being analog, does not display these names.

The audio quality of the typical German radio station is way better than most of our Chicago stations. They are not "pushing" for the maximum loudness. I think they appreciate quality sound. I don't really think it has much to do with transmitter power. All of the stations I listened to on FM came in clearly in my hotel room with no fuss.

On AM, I did not observe much interference at all, unless I got the radio too close to my laptop. The hotel had the typical tile roof and conventional plaster walls that you often see in European cities. I don't think there is much metal in the walls, because reception at my bedside was about as good as at the window (which is often not the case in U.S. hotels).

I somewhat underestimated the number of longwave stations. Last night I counted at least 10 stations that had a listenable signal.

The most stunning difference is in the interference level at night on Medium Wave (AM). Here, our channels are just basically total noise at night because there are hundreds of co-channel stations occupying the same frequency and it does not work. In Europe, they apparently don't allow this and it shows. If you do find a channel with co-channel interference, it will be two or three stations at most, so it does not sound like a totally unintelligible misch-mash of noise (like here). At night time there is a listenable signal on almost every 9 kHz increment on the dial! It takes a long time to tune through that many stations and try to catalog in your mind what they are doing. I had the thought that it would really cool if I could just do spectrum capture of the entire dial at once and play it back later, at home.

I would say that although the variety of programming was somewhat less in Germany than what I heard in France in the Cote D'Azur, it is still far beyond what is available here in Chicago.

 

[kc1ih]

Most digital portables sold now-a-days have a means of changing them over to European spacing and back, be sure to save the instruction manual because it's usually a combination of keys that need to be pressed and not just a simple switch.

 

[cyberdad]

I'm now in Stuttgart, Germany. Again, I'm in general agreement with audioguy's observations. One station that's jumping out....in more ways than one...is 1134 from Croatia. No wonder it's being heard in North America, as posted in another thread. This thing is pure brute force. Strongest signal of all on the nighttime dial here, and that includes the locals. It's pretty much trashing the semi-local U.S. Armed Forces Station "next door" on 1143. Impressive to say the least!

Unlike past years, I'm in a hotel that's not blocking signals, so the a.m. DX here is pretty decent. More on that within the next couple of days...probably after I get home this weekend. 621 from Paris and 1548 from London are two others that stand out as quite reliable. 1341 and 576 are the locals. Neither signal is exactly overwhelming, and the latter has audible stuff underneath.

 

[CHRles]

Commercial radio has been around a lot longer in the U.S. It's had a lot longer of a time to mature. It only started developing in Germany in the mid 80s, and really started to take off in the 90s.
In France, commercial radio began to take off in the early 80s. Prior to that private radio stations were not allowed to air commercials.
In Italy the FM radio dial is still a big mess in some cities as the radio industry is not well regulated. Private radio began in 1977 over there.

There are also some cities, like Berlin or Paris, that have an excellent and varied radio dial. On the other hand, the most populated region of Germany, NRW (North Rhine Westphalia), which includes cities like Cologne, Essen, Dusseldorf, and Bonn, is an underserved radio market. There are five or six state-owned stations, one or two private stations in each city that all air the same Hot AC format (and I do mean the same - they all share the same playlist), and BFBS radio - the British Forces radio, the equivalent to AFN. In cities like Cologne you may also be able to pick up stations from other regions like SW3 out of Stuttgart, and Big FM (a CHR that can be picked up in cities like Stuttgart and Frankfurt). The state owned stations in Germany don't cover the entire country, but rather they're super regional stations that cover one of its 17 states (like Bavaria or Hessen).
In some cities in Europe there's no station devoted to Rock music, and in some countries like Croatia even CHR radio is a rarity.

There's no doubt that in some parts of Europe the radio dial is very exciting and fresh, and does make you say "man, why can't radio sound like this in America!". At the same time, there are definitely other parts where American radio is far more supreme then whats locally available.

For more on radio dials in Europe go to:
http://www.ukwtv.de/sender-tabelle/index.html

Click on UKW/MW/LW from the menu on the left. UKW = FM.

Or you can go to:
http://radiomap.eu/

 

[radioray]

I love this Amsterdam Classic Rocker

http://www.cityfm.nl/

 

[stormy01]

I'm now in Stuttgart, Germany. Again, I'm in general agreement with audioguy's observations. One station that's jumping out....in more ways than one...is 1134 from Croatia. No wonder it's being heard in North America, as posted in another thread. This thing is pure brute force. Strongest signal of all on the nighttime dial here, and that includes the locals. It's pretty much trashing the semi-local U.S. Armed Forces Station "next door" on 1143. Impressive to say the least!

Unlike past years, I'm in a hotel that's not blocking signals, so the a.m. DX here is pretty decent. More on that within the next couple of days...probably after I get home this weekend. 621 from Paris and 1548 from London are two others that stand out as quite reliable. 1341 and 576 are the locals. Neither signal is exactly overwhelming, and the latter has audible stuff underneath.

1134 from Zadar, Croatia, is 600kW, using a 4-tower array. Without knowing the height of the towers, there is no way for anyone to know for sure what the ERP of 1134 is. If the towers are at least a quarter wave, the ERP is at minimum 1MW. The signal is a NW/SE pattern, so much of the energy is headed towards Stuttgart, which is roughly 400 miles (650km) from Zadar.

621 is from Wavre, Belgium. At 300kW, that would sound like a local in Paris. 1341 might be Hungary, unless there is a new station on that frequency operating out of Germany.

Sources: World Radio TV Handbook, 2009 ed.; http://www.mediumwave.de/; http://www.fmscan.org/.

 

[cyberdad]

Stormy....

Thanks for the info. I thought 621 was Paris, and indeed it does sound like a local there. Paris to Brussels is only an hour and 20 minutes on the Thalys high speed train. The terrain between the two cities is very much like Midwest farm country, so the ground conductivity is probably excellent. Combine that with the high power and low dial position, and you've got all the ingredients for Brussels to be sounding like a local in Paris. There's another Brussels station (927 or 936 IIRC) that also puts a decent signal into Paris, but doesn't quite sound like a local.

As for 1341 in Stuttgart....its good day and night, so either its a Stuttgart area local or a monster coming from Hungary.

Last night/this morning, the British stations were lighting up the dial. In addition to 1548 Gold sounding like a local, we had the BBC on 648 (finally as strong as one would expect), and BBC on 693 (not as strong, but still good). 1098 Sports talk was strong (1053 Sports Talk not as strong, but still respectable), The London ethnic station on 1458 also had a robust signal. Missing were Spectrum radio 558, BBC on 720 and LBC on 1152. The first two are low power, but I thought 1152 had more juice. They certainly have a fine signal in Central London.

 

[stormy01]

Re: LBC 1152

...but I thought 1152 had more juice. They certainly have a fine signal in Central London.

According to the fmscan.org website, their map program draws a directional pattern with most of the energy going south from their transmitter site.

Confirmed by this:
"...Not to mention the Saffron Green transmitter is a highly directional (4 tower directional array design) which sends most of its power into London."

http://forums.thinkbroadband.com/beunlimited/3605933-dmt-graph-after-re-sync.html

Also see http://frequencyfinder.org.uk/

 

[Icangelp]

Four years ago, we had an exchange student from Italy with the family. She couldn't get over how much better the contemporary music is here compared to Italy and Europe, much more diverse and certainly much less of a "pop" sound. Just goes to show you.

Cyberdad, I checked a WRTH from the 60's, and I believe I counted as many Euro longwave stations today as there were then. I hadn't expected to see that. What has changed, is the major increase of super power longwave and MW stations in Northern Africa and the Arab countries.

I have a couple of photos of coverage area maps WLW had created when they were proposing 1,000,000 watts, and when they were operating with 500,000 watts directional. Very impressive, but the explanation of the shading of the coverage contours are not readable. The photos themselves are low resolution and rather small.

 

[billscessna]

I agree with your comments about radio in Europe. When in the UK I heard an interesting talk program that had UK phone in's and also US, how they got the US calls I don't know but the interchange was interesting.

 

[cyberdad]

Cyberdad, I checked a WRTH from the 60's, and I believe I counted as many Euro longwave stations today as there were then. I hadn't expected to see that. What has changed, is the major increase of super power longwave and MW stations in Northern Africa and the Arab countries.

Interesting. I agree that I wouldn't have expected the number of Euro longwaves to stay the same. Butthe newer blowtorches cropping up in Northern Africa and Arab countries doesn't surprise me.

 

[Goldilocks94941]

Nice to hear some interest in DXing. Seems to be a lost cause in the US now with most of the AM dial. I miss hearing much on the west coast, where I live now, with a lot of dull local religious stations cramming up the dial from what little long distance listening I could otherwise get in Seattle.

I think one reason the dial seems easier to listen to in Europe is that they regulate the signals better than the FCC has done for some decades now. The use of high powered directionalized transmitters aimed at particular regions makes sense, and many government regulators in European countries protect signals and optimize the tehnology, versus the random "whatever the industry wants" approach that has decimated the AM dial here> (I dare day the same FCC lack of technical prowess is now doing similar damage to FM signals beyond some 30 miles from the transmitter sites.)

I think it's interesting to compare the dial in places like London, Paris, and Athens. In my travels (probably a little changed in the past couple of years since I was there), I found FM in Athens to be hard to listen to. AM was sparse, but FM was an overstuffed dial with high and low powered stations virtually on top of each other, making listening to a lot of the frequencies a mess.

Paris, on the other hand, seemed to have a very orderly, evenly spaced FM dial, but 2 or 3 times as many stations as in the typical US major market. Seemed like most stations have similar power output, maybe a few low power, and they were able to cram them all in without creating audio chaos, which allows for a lot of minority formats and services, in addition to lots of commercial and state-run services.

The UK and Ireland, on the other hand, and perhaps Germany and the Netherlands, seemed the most conservative in having fewer stations and a fair amount of open space on the dial, even in major population centers. I like how in Britain they have been able to assign frequencies within a certain range to a particular station across a region or the nation, ie various local transmitters for one station adveretised as being on "88 to 91 FM," or between 99 to 101 FM, etc. Very deliberate, those Brits. In Amsterdam, however, I think they still require different operators to share time on certain frequencies, so the programming choices tend to be less at any one given hour. (And despite the common use of English, the only English language broadcasting I heard in Holland was the odd "community" radio volunteer station with a few ex-pat Americans a la Pacifica Radio style of diatribes. They also matter of factly played lots of American music with extreme profanity, which I found a bit off putting in the middle of the day.)

In my experience, the highest quality of program content, regardless of format, was in Britain, the most interesting variety was in France (including some lovely eclectic-mix formats and one fine arts stations playing all-French classical composers at night), and the most banal top 40 stuff (think of those head bopping characters from ten years ago on Saturday Night Live) was in Eastern Europe and Turkey (except for Istanbul, which had a lot of specialty formatted and variety stations).

I'm eager to be able to listen to all of this via internet car radio before long. And while I think I'm a bit too far from Croatia even for a zillion watt AM signal, it's fun to think of it as a new incarnation of the old CKLW in the 1970s and 80s.

Anyone here have a longwave radio in the US? Ever find anything on those frequencies in North America? Wouldn't it be nice for the FCC to open up that band here for a select group of stations intended for DX listening, including offering space to noncommercial services, to give them access to larger potential audiences for specialized programming? How about hearing an all-Louisiana-music or a blues station every night from Dixie playing on longwave across the USA and Canada? Or something from Alaska or the Canadian Arctic aiming a signal across the tundra and spilling over at night into the prairies and the Rockies?

 

[Nsubuga]

I have longwave on my little Sony portable. When I lived in Ukraine during the early part of this decade, I was able to receive several stations on that band -- but, of course, nothing at all here in North America. It would indeed be nice if that band could somehow be put into service.

 

[KeithE4]

Anyone here have a longwave radio in the US? Ever find anything on those frequencies in North America? Wouldn't it be nice for the FCC to open up that band here for a select group of stations intended for DX listening, including offering space to noncommercial services, to give them access to larger potential audiences for specialized programming? How about hearing an all-Louisiana-music or a blues station every night from Dixie playing on longwave across the USA and Canada? Or something from Alaska or the Canadian Arctic aiming a signal across the tundra and spilling over at night into the prairies and the Rockies?

Who's gonna listen? There has never been longwave broadcasting in the US, let alone anywhere else in Region 2 AFAIK. Receivers for longwave do not exist on this side of the world, except for some ham equipment and European imports.

It would require a transmitter facility that would be very expensive to set up, towers that probably wouldn't be allowed anywhere, requiring a huge amount of expensive real estate for the radials (a 1/4 wave tower at 285 kHz is over 800 feet high, and would required radial lengths to match). All to send out a signal that almost nobody can listen to, and nobody but a few hobbyists want to listen to.

This is an absolute non-starter.

 

[audioguy]

Who's gonna listen? There has never been longwave broadcasting in the US, let alone anywhere else in Region 2 AFAIK. Receivers for longwave do not exist on this side of the world, except for some ham equipment and European imports.

It would require a transmitter facility that would be very expensive to set up, towers that probably wouldn't be allowed anywhere, requiring a huge amount of expensive real estate for the radials (a 1/4 wave tower at 285 kHz is over 800 feet high, and would required radial lengths to match). All to send out a signal that almost nobody can listen to, and nobody but a few hobbyists want to listen to.

This is an absolute non-starter.

Unfortunately I have to agree-- I don't think people would listen. Although it's not that hard to get a receiver that picks up longwave however. You can buy a small Sony portable like the one I own for under $50 in many camera stores.

Also I don't think it's technically infeasible to use a standard AM tower for longwave if you're willing to accept some inefficiency. Probably almost any tower that would be reasonably efficient on the low end of Medium Wave would "work" on longwave; the efficiency is just not going to be too high.

After all, these non-directional beacons don't really have huge antennas for the most part. I think most of the ones I've seen use T antennas.

 

[KeithE4]

Longwave broadcasting is only allocated in Region 1, from 148.5 to 283.5 kHz. In Regions 2 and 3, these frequencies are allocated to either the Fixed Service or Aircraft navigation. There will never be a broadcast allocation in this range in this part of the world. In fact, I'm surprised that it survives in Europe.

Of course, there is always Part 15 at 160-190 kHz, with one watt input (about 400-500 mW out) and a 15 meter antenna - long enough to radiate a few microwatts of that. ;D

 

[cyberdad]

Who's gonna listen? There has never been longwave broadcasting in the US, let alone anywhere else in Region 2 AFAIK. Receivers for longwave do not exist on this side of the world, except for some ham equipment and European imports.

It would require a transmitter facility that would be very expensive to set up, towers that probably wouldn't be allowed anywhere, requiring a huge amount of expensive real estate for the radials (a 1/4 wave tower at 285 kHz is over 800 feet high, and would required radial lengths to match). All to send out a signal that almost nobody can listen to, and nobody but a few hobbyists want to listen to.

This is an absolute non-starter.

Intriguing as the idea is, I also agree 100%. On top of everything else, the noise and interference level down on LW tends to be ridiculous.