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How does this audio processing sound?

LibertyNT said:
what is everyone's vendetta against mp3?

It is not a vendetta. MP3s achieve their compression by reducing the amount of audio information in a file, which reduces the quality of the audio. Once that audio information is removed it can never be restored to the file. With more aggressive file compression more audio information is lost and the result has lower fidelity. It is simple mathematics. The only way to preserve full fidelity in an audio file or digital audio path is to avoid compression. Radio stations today do not use MP3 files for music, partly because of the degraded audio quality, partly because hard drives are cheap, and partly because an increase in the use of digital connections between studios and transmitter and the use of IBOC can introduce additional degradation. Multiple digital stages using different compression schemes can also introduce artifacts through cascading algorithms. Have you ever listened to any of the nationally syndicated talk shows on Sirius or XM? Sometimes they can sound very bad because the program generally does not originate at the network control center. Often one algorithm is used on the link from the studio to netops, another may be used between netops and the teleport, and a third from the teleport through the sat to the listener.
 
As Dale said, it's not a vendetta. MP3 works by perceptual coding -- removing parts of the audio it thinks you won't miss. I have no problem with MP3 per se -- my iPhone is full of MP3-encoded songs, and I can listen to them, most of the time, without wincing.

Evaluating audio processing is another area entirely. How can one evaluate the performance of a processor after it's been re-processed by the MP3 encoder? Which artifacts are from the processing, and which are from the encoding process? There's really no way to tell.

Unless your processing goal is to produce optimal audio for MP3 encoding, it's really necessary to compare linear files. Yup, they're bigger, but they contain the WHOLE STORY.
 
ScottJ said:
Evaluating audio processing is another area entirely. How can one evaluate the performance of a processor after it's been re-processed by the MP3 encoder? Which artifacts are from the processing, and which are from the encoding process? There's really no way to tell.

And it's also very hard, if not impossible, to judge processing based on just one song...
 
It's for an Internet soft AC/oldies format, so MP3s are representative of the final product.

Should there be a lot of reverb and heavy processing, like the AM stations back in the day, or should there be no reverb and light processing
 
Nick said:
It's for an Internet soft AC/oldies format, so MP3s are representative of the final product.

Representative how? Unlike many current albums, Barry Manilow's masters were not transferred to the pressing plant as MP3s. In 1977, when "Even Now" was released, studios and record companies tried to maintain quality from recording and mastering to the cutting lathe and the presses. MP3s deliberately destroy quality for the sake of storing more files, an oxymoron in a time when a $100 hard drive can store the entire library, uncompressed, for most formats.

We still meed to hear WAV files made directly from the processing. Do not convert the MP3s to WAVs and post them - we won't be able to hear the processing accurately because of the MP3 artifacts.

You do not appear to be an experienced radio engineer since you do not seem to understand what we are telling you. Some of the folks here, including yours truly, have more than 40 years of experience as radio engineers. We were engineers in the age of turntables, reel-to-reels, cart machines and analog processing, and we are still engineers in this age of digital audio workstations, Windows- and Linux-based automation, digital processing and HD transmitters.
 
Dale is correct.
 
LibertyNT said:
I always wondered how they made MP3s smaller...

Lossy compression reduces file sizes by throwing away part of the information - that is how MP3, AAC and JPG files work. Lossless compression finds redundancy in a file and encodes that redundancy using an algorithm whose output occupies less space than the original redundancy, but it is fully reversed when the compressed file is decoded - that is how ZIP, RAR and GIF files work. Lossy compression provides greater file compression than lossless compression, but at a cost.

Try this experiment - you will need an audio workstation program of good quality such as Adobe Audition (one which can display a waveform in a mode similar to an oscilloscope trace and that can encode in mp3Pro) with a CD-ROM drive for ripping, and a high-quality listening system connected to it (I use a Tascam US-122 semi-professional USB audio interface with Sony MDR-V6 headphones that have been my reference 'phones for nearly 20 years):

Start with a music CD of known high quality, preferrably digitally recorded amd mastered with great attention to quality, and which you have frequently listened to in a high-quality listening environment. Some of you might prefer a classical music CD, but for experiments like this I prefer the title track of "Come Away With Me" by Norah Jones.

Rip the track into the audio workstation at 44.1 kHz / 16 bit, and save a copy as an uncompressed WAV file. That will be your reference. Now save it again as an MP3 file (I would suggest settings of MPEG Layer-3, 128 Kbps (MS J-Stereo) - fairly typical for audio distribution), which should yield a file about 10% of the size ot the WAV file. Minimize the audio editor, find the saved WAV file and compress it with a lossless file compressor such as WinZip or WinRAR. Note the file sizes of the WAV file, the MP3 and the ZIP or RAR file. You will see that although lossless compression may save some file size the MP3 is significantly smaller.

Now decompress the ZIP or RAR file, saving the output with a different name, and open it in the audio workstation. Invert the original WAV, sum it with the decompressed WAV, and examine the result in waveform view. Now open the MP3, sum it with the inverted original WAV and examine the result in waveform view. The waveform view in each case shows how much data was lost in the compression-decompression cycle. If your audio workstation supports one of the newer compression algorithms such as AAC give that a cycle as you did for MP3.

What you see on the workstation after summing the MP3 with the inverted WAV file is the information that MP3 throws away in order to achieve a reduction in file size. Listen to that result and you may even be able to recognize the original song or performance. Once the MP3 is created that information is forever lost. That is why MP3 may be suitable for uses where audio fidelity is not of primary concern, and is often used for commercial and some program distribution (a practice which I abhor), but is not suitable for music storage on a hard drive in a radio station where, as I have pointed out above, a $100 hard drive can hold, uncompressed, the entire library for most formats which use music-on-hard-drive.
 
Since the stream format is mp3, the processing has to be setup to produce the best sounding output within that format's limitations. Therefore, would it not be a much more accurate test to listen to the processed mp3 files than listening to a processed .wav file? The .wav file might enable you to evaluate a processor more accurately, but the mp3 file allows you to hear something like the final output which is the combination of processing and lossy compression. I believe the original question was not just about processing, but rather about how the processing sounds on an mp3 stream.
 
Kmagrill said:
I believe the original question was not just about processing, but rather about how the processing sounds on an mp3 stream.

It was not. The original question was not about processing for an MP3 stream - it was "Which version do you think sounds better?" with examples given as MP3 files - it did not specify that the destination was a stream. This forum is called "RADIO PROS > Engineering" and so the presumption is that the stream is that of a broadcast station.
 
Nick said:
It's for an Internet soft AC/oldies format, so MP3s are representative of the final product.

Should there be a lot of reverb and heavy processing, like the AM stations back in the day, or should there be no reverb and light processing

For which station? Where can we listen to the stream?
 
Kmagrill said:
Since the stream format is mp3, the processing has to be setup to produce the best sounding output within that format's limitations. Therefore, would it not be a much more accurate test to listen to the processed mp3 files than listening to a processed .wav file? The .wav file might enable you to evaluate a processor more accurately, but the mp3 file allows you to hear something like the final output which is the combination of processing and lossy compression. I believe the original question was not just about processing, but rather about how the processing sounds on an mp3 stream.

So we would need to assume that the same codec and bitrate will be used for the stream as for these samples. No way to know. I would stream as I would in the final product and capture that stream and place it as .wav for evalutaion of the processing. This way we would be able to listen the actual end product.
 
Dale H. Cook said:
Kmagrill said:
I believe the original question was not just about processing, but rather about how the processing sounds on an mp3 stream.

It was not. The original question was not about processing for an MP3 stream - it was "Which version do you think sounds better?" with examples given as MP3 files - it did not specify that the destination was a stream. This forum is called "RADIO PROS > Engineering" and so the presumption is that the stream is that of a broadcast station.

Nick said:
It's for an Internet soft AC/oldies format, so MP3s are representative of the final product.

Should there be a lot of reverb and heavy processing, like the AM stations back in the day, or should there be no reverb and light processing

From the author's quote above, it seems rather clear that he intended to ask about processing for his mp3 internet radio stream, not processing for radio broadcast. However, this was not made clear in his first post.

I'm not sure why we would differentiate internet only vs broadcaster with stream but wouldn't the stream processing question be the same regardless of if he's an internet only station or if he's a broadcaster with a stream?

Obviously, the bitrate of the mp3 file should be identical to the data rate of the stream for a reasonably accurate listening evaluation to occur.
 
Funny, I thought the original post asked a simple question, "Which of these sounds better to you?" Shouldn't that get a simple answer? So far, nobody seems to have given him one....
 
Chuck said:
Funny, I thought the original post asked a simple question, "Which of these sounds better to you?" Shouldn't that get a simple answer? So far, nobody seems to have given him one....

Duh! Barry Manilow doesn't warrant a comment about sounding good. :-X
 
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