How far out will HD-2-3 channels go?

[jras20]

I have been told they go just about as far as the main HD-channel. I know I can get the HD signal, I hear the sidebands on FM. But what happens durring a "skip"? Will the secound & third channel go out just like the analog station does if its more intense?

 

[calstymes]

Of course.

As Montgomery Scott, the chief engineer of the starship Enterprise would say, you can't change the laws of physics!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I have been told they go just about as far as the main HD-channel. I know I can get the HD signal, I hear the sidebands on FM. But what happens durring a "skip"? Will the secound & third channel go out just like the analog station does if its more intense?

According to iBiquity, the HD cartel, and HD supporters, it is impossible to hear the HD digital sidebands on an analog FM radio. Of course they have an impeccable track record for disinformation.
The HD digital sidebands are clearly there jamming the "stations between the stations" that HD claims to "help" you receive.
Don't expect much range from any iBiquity HD digital signal, even with an additional antenna array.
The interfering HD buzz goes much farther then HD's useable coverage.

 

[jras20]

Thanks for the info, I gues if I ever get a HD radio I'll keep the stuff incase I half to return it if I dont get the secound // third channel.

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

The NPR study says that the secondary channels are only good out to approximately the 80 dBu contour. You'll be lucky if you hear them 20 miles from the transmitter. Remember too that when they go out, there's no analog fallback. They'll just go dead.

 

[jras20]

This gets me thinking now. Out at my country home I only can recieve 3 "Local" channels on FM & a few good ones on AM. All the rest is fringe. TV is a big fringe as well. I probably wont have any luck with HDTV, I dont plan on buying one of those HDTV boxes unless they are dirt cheap. I dont watch that much of analog TV any more since I got Direct TV. But, once they probably will kill analog radio, what where that be for me? I'm not going to pay for radio. Unless Satilite internet is cheaper by then I wont be able to get anything. Thats the biggest thing I have againts HD Radio is if they kill analog radio..., other than that, I am all for it.

 

[700WLW]

There is no way analog radio will be killed for many years, if ever. Digital radio (DAB) is not taking hold in the US, the UK, or Canada. The Bridge Ratings have analog terrestrial radio going out to 2020, on the graph, and I have seen it projected out to the middle of the century.

http://www.bridgeratings.com/press_031006-digitalprojectionsupdwradio.htm

 

[jras20]

Well at least I'll know that my many of radios will work between now and then. I think they should keep analog going forever really.... as far as TV I'm not even going to hookup my TV antenna to my TV/Radio tuner card, I hardly watch it, I gues the TV part will be no good in 2009.

 

[Tom Wells]

If you're not a cable subscriber (as I'm not) then you will supposedly be eligible for a self (taxpayer) subsidized HDTV tuner-converter.
At least as far as I have heard, this is the only group eligible for "free" converters. This would be a good time to begin informing your neighbors that HD radio does not intend to serve your remote, rural community, and in fact, wishes to marginalize you and cut off your choices of broadcast media by polluting your public airwaves with unintelligible hash, probably interfering with stations you depend on.
It is much like a corporation for sexual prostitutes bribing the local vice squad to permit prostitution, something the vice squad has been
fighting for years. They've been convinced that this particular form of prostitution is OK, because they're a big company, and they've been
working realllllly hard to make this type of slut-action work well, and it will save their industry.
Are you going to support this type of improved iniquity? Or do you still believe that sex is best reserved for the bounds of marriage, even though you may have not been fully true to the ideal over the years?
I believe radio is radio, and computers are computers, and putting digital trash on the airwaves is much the same as legalizing prostitution.
Doesn't matter if you legalize it, it's still wrong.

 

[jras20]

I'm happy the way analog TV is right now, at least I can still get TV down there! Their is a few extra channels that I would like to have on radio, thats on HD-2 channels. I still would like to have a few more formats that isnt on analog radio.

 

[Tom Wells]

There are a LOT of formats I would like to see on analog radio, but the "radio by the numbers" mind-set makes this all but impossible.
As a rural listener, in some ways, your choices are (or would be greater) than an urban listener, due to the lack of overpowering splatter on adjacents. You were best served by the FCC's position before the Class A-1 50kw clears were diluted. There was a choice for you to listen to any number of major signals, offering at that time a wide variety of local choices, delivered nationally.
And this was a very specific decision by the FRC/FCC to give rural communities this service. DAYtimers were never happy, but understood their place in the market was limited.
You might not have been able to hear the "sports yap" nation-wide streamed locally broadcast on a local at 50 watts, but you could hear texas swing from tulsa, rock-n-roll from many markets, The Grand Ole Opry from Nashville, great jazz on WGN at night, the news DIRECT from many major cities before the network stripped off the interesting bits, WHY people were rioting in Cincinnati, etc.
These choices were anathema to those who want control of your market, small as it may be.
It is important to the industry that you are forced to choose from one of the local providers, despite the 80 years of PROVEN service to wide areas radio has provided. Why else support a system that breaks one of the most important abilities of your radios?

 

[Chuck]

I still would like to have a few more formats that isnt on analog radio.

Me too, but what makes you think you will find them on HD-2? You may get something great for a while, but if it ever catches on, most broadcasters will use those channels for whatever makes them the most money. You may or may not like that.

 

[jras20]

I just would like to see what it would do in a area like that, I'll buy one at a place that I can return it if I need to.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I just would like to see what it would do in a area like that, I'll buy one at a place that I can return it if I need to.

Very wise. Just watch out for fees and restocking charges, and let us know how you make out.
In the meantime, almost all HD stations (including HD2, 3 etc.) are available over internet streaming from the station's websites. No expensive, crappy, HD radio necessary. Many XM and other channels are available from AOL radio, shoutcast, and yahoo radio.
www.shoutcast.com
www.tuner2.com
http://music.aol.com/radioguide/bb
Just to name a few.

 

[jras20]

Where would be a good place to buy one? I know radioshack has 30 day money back, I dont think I want to get one at wal mart if they ever get them, they only give out money cards now it seems like. I'm hoping to get one by the end of the year. I checked out some of them aol channels, they sound good, I have broadband at my home place, but out there if I am lucky, I only get 21.6 at the most 26.4

 

[700WLW]

I just would like to see what it would do in a area like that, I'll buy one at a place that I can return it if I need to.

Very wise. Just watch out for fees and restocking charges, and let us know how you make out.
In the meantime, almost all HD stations (including HD2, 3 etc.) are available over internet streaming from the station's websites. No expensive, crappy, HD radio necessary. Many XM and other channels are available from AOL radio, shoutcast, and yahoo radio.
www.shoutcast.com
www.tuner2.com
http://music.aol.com/radioguide/bb
Just to name a few.

This is an interesting quote from yesterday:

Scowl writes "I still don't see how you can have digital interference without analog reception. You seem to think that the digital signals will somehow wipe the more powerful analog signals from the air. Every AM HD Radio station is still broadcasting in analog AM. If you can pick up the digital noise, you can pick up their analog signal too." Ok, here goes. Have you never had trouble receiving an (analog) AM station because of interference from a flourescent radio, computer monitor, television, or light dimmer? Do you not see that filling a house with such devices could eliminate your ability to receive even strong local signals in that house? Digital information broadcast on HD AM stations is heard as a broadband buzzing noise on analog radios. This isn't "audio" to analog radios. It's noise.

Remember that "beneath" every analog transmission, there is always noise. More so on AM than FM. Increasing average audio levels increases effective coverage of analog stations...because the "signal to noise ratio" is greater...in other words, the desired audio is higher in level compared to the noise. Audio is "louder". So the listener turns down the volume control. And in so doing, they not only lower the desired audio to the level they prefer, they turn down the noise. The noise is constant, but the audio isn't. Increasing average audio level effectively reduces noise, so you can go further from the tower before noise begins to intrude on the audio...increasing effective coverage.

When driving away from an AM radio station, the signal is eventually lost for one of two reasons (three actually...though we'll ignore the third...sensitivity and efficiency of the tuner/antenna)...the signal strength of the desired station becomes so low that it no longer "swamps" the background noise (atmospheric, and that generated by other stations, flourescent lights, power lines, automobile ignitions, and other manmade devices). OR the desired signal is lost because it is overcome by a stronger signal on the same frequency. Station coverage is all about signal to noise ratio. If audio level (or carrier power increases), or if background noise is less, station coverage is increased. If audio level (or carrier power) decreases, or background noise increases, station coverage is decreased.

EVERY station contributes to the background noise on the AM band, nothing can be done about that other than making a bunch of 'em cease operation. Electrical and electronic devices also contribute to the background noise level...a simple fact of life, especially in cities. Short of returning to candle power and horses and buggies, nothing can be done about that. But NEW sources of background noise...such as the proposed broadband over power lines, and the noise generated on analog radios by "HD Radio" CAN be stopped before they make matters worse (and if you have always lived in a city Scowl, maybe you aren't aware how bad the situation is in rural areas...many of us have little or no local coverage already). The ability to receive stations from distant cities is critical to rural people. People more than 50 miles from a population center, in other words inhabitants of most midwestern communities, would literally lose their ability to hear AM radio (the only radio many receive) if all stations went "HD".

This isn't some obscure theory, Scowl. LISTEN TO THE SAMPLE AUDIO I POSTED. Imagine the station that was being covered by the HD noise of KOA was your only source for regional weather, and a tornado was on the way! You're in your car, the sky turns dark, you turn on the frequency of that "big city" station 60 miles away, and rather than receiving them, you get the buzzing nosie generated by KOA. The station may well be broadcasting tornado warnings, but YOU WON'T HEAR THEM because HD has reduced the effective coverage area of the station you're trying to receive. This also isn't theory, Scowl. Ibiquity admits that HD compromises coverage area, supposedly for the "greater good".

Scowl, you're just wrong. It has been the plan FROM THE BEGINNING to eventually end analog broadcasting...which is why there are hybrid (both analog and digital) and non-hybrid (digital only) versions of AM and FM IBOC systems. Perhaps you're not in broadcasting, and don't realize that the plan is to REPLACE analog radio. The model being analog television, which is slated to be turned off (I think) in January of 2008 (the date has changed several times).

There currently is no mandated cutoff date for analog radio, so you're kind of right in that it isn't "official" yet...but make no mistake...ending analog broadcasting is the goal.

And again you're missing the point. Yes, with all AMs broadcasting HD, AM stations, even the little ones, will still offer SOME coverage. But even Ibiquity recognizes that there WILL be a reduction of service. Their argument is that the reduction (in quality and quantity of analog service) isn't as drastic as detractors claim, and that it's "worth it" for the benefits of digital, not that there isn't a reduction! If you believe HD won't cut into analog coverage, then you are at odds with everyone, including the Ibiquity people who market the system(s).

Reducing analog coverage (by increasing background noise, which EVERYONE, including Ibiquity admits will happen) by 1/4 to 3/4 for EVERY AM station (3/4 is my pessimistic estimate, but again....LISTEN TO THE LINK AT MY WEBSITE to what ONE HD AM does to an adjacent channel when listened to on an analog radio, and form your own conclusion. With KOA broadcasting in "HD" the adjacent station is completely covered in noise. When KOA turns off "HD", a clear, STRONG signal emerges from the noise. The station was COMPLETELY covered by the noise. This isn't some wild theory, you can hear it for yourself. Just as you can hear the noise your local HD station is generating by driving out of town (so the analog sidebands are weaker than in the city...as in suburban areas CRITICAL to ratings and monetary success for EVERY station, since Arbitron "metros" encompass MANY counties), you can clearly hear that HD DESTROYS the ability to hear this signal on an adjacent channel, hundreds of miles from KOA! KOA is generating digital noise, which blankets analog reception on adjacent channels for HUNDREDS of miles. Were they on at night, the noise generated by this one station would extend THOUSANDS of miles. And this is only one station! http://www.theproductionroom.net/iboc.wma

I don't know why this is so hard to believe, Scowl. AM stations are only 10khz apart! When broadcasting analog audio with a 9khz audio bandwidth they are already "into" their neighbors (on adjacent channels) intermittently, as audio content rises and falls in frequency. In the "old days" when AMs broadcast 15 or even 20khz audio (and YES they sure as hell did!), interference was even worse. But in those days there were fewer stations on the air. There are TOO MANY AMs, sharing TOO LITTLE spectrum already. I'd love it if AM IBOC was in fact "in band, on channel". At least they got it half-right. It's "in band" alright.

If you think the sacrifice (in analog audio quality and station coverage) is worth it for the advantages of digital AM Scowl, then that's your opinion. Hell, if I lived in Manattan, surrounded by strong AM signals, I might even agree. But I, and millions of others, live in a rural area. My LOCAL AMs barely make it to my house at night (with transmitters about 15 and 10 miles from my home). I'm sure that, were "HD Radio" the norm, I would receive NOTHING at my house at night. Nor would the vast majority of people west of the Mississippi. (I doubt engineers from Ibiquity would disagree) What a great service!

 

[w9wi]

If you're not a cable subscriber (as I'm not) then you will supposedly be eligible for a self (taxpayer) subsidized HDTV tuner-converter.
At least as far as I have heard, this is the only group eligible for "free" converters. ...

The rules for this are being worked on as we speak.

It seems probable eligibility for a subsidy coupon will be limited to those who do not subscribe to some other provider (cable/satellite) of local channels. There *may* be a means test -- coupons may be limited to those below a certain income level.

(unfortunately, they aren't considering coupons for municipalities to cover the tipping fees for the millions of portable TVs and TV sound radios people are going to throw out when they stop working!)

_________________________________________________
As for the original subject...

I've been disappointed at the formats being carried on HD2 channels around here. (Nashville) WPLN/NPR is the only station carrying anything interesting, the HD2 streams on the three commercial stations that have them are awfully close to what's available on the market's analog stations. There's nothing up there that will induce anyone to spend the money on a HD receiver.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The quote (above) is in error.

I'd love it if AM IBOC was in fact "in band, on channel". At least they got it half-right. It's "in band" alright.

The iBiquity HD system is neither "In Band" nor "On Channel", and further violates FCC rules when AM or FM stations at the top and bottom of the bands broadcast with HD.
Example:
Broadcasting iBiquity HD on 540 or 1700 AM, or 88.1 or 107.9 FM would put the HD buzz well outside the legal broadcast bands.
Additionally, as more and more HD stations add wide band buzz to the dials, there are now more heterodynes, intermod, beats and whistles. Near an antenna farm, listening to radio at all is becoming nearly impossible.