HOW FAR SHOULD HD-FM WORK?

[R.F. Burns]

Its obvious that either he is in an unusally bad location or has some other issue. I live 25 miles from Empire and get every NY HD station with the supplied dipole. I read a post about someone visiting a Bestbuy in New Jersey and the Sony tabletop radio only had a collapsed whip antenna lying horizontally, attached to the radio and he was able to pick up every NYC area HD signal. The radio was located in the middle of a large concrete and steel building with flourecent lights.

 

[tripinva]

And when I visited my relatives in New Jersey (10-15 miles from ESB), I could not hold the IBOC signals I tried for more than a minute or so without dropouts with the supplied dipole. AMs wouldn't lock for more than a few seconds at a time. Analogs were clear and fine.

All it proves is that IBOC is inconsistent.

- Trip

 

[R.F. Burns]

Inconsistant? Not in my experience. What radio were you using that didn't receive NY HD's from such short distances. I have three HD radios and have no problem when using the supplied dipole with any of the HD stations when listening from my home, 25 miles north of the ESB.

 

[tripinva]

Inconsistant? Not in my experience. What radio were you using that didn't receive NY HD's from such short distances. I have three HD radios and have no problem when using the supplied dipole with any of the HD stations when listening from my home, 25 miles north of the ESB.

The Accurian digital radio. There was not one location that I could find where it held the signal consistently.

- Trip

 

[Play Freebird]

It might be interesting to compare the paths between ESB and each receiving site. There's a significant shadow in north Jersey west of Montclair, which may account for much of this digital reception trouble. (Hopefully, the HD Alliance can raise money to remove the offending mountain.)

To assist with this analysis, here's a great website which plots line-of-sight coverage maps (visibility cloak) and terrain profiles, using high resolution SRTM data. The following example is based on the height of the observation deck, but it's easy to specify a different elevation or to modify coordinates:

http://www.heywhatsthat.com/?view=HKTQGEM1

 

[tripinva]

It might be interesting to compare the paths between ESB and each receiving site. There's a significant shadow in north Jersey west of Montclair, which may account for much of this digital reception trouble. (Hopefully, the HD Alliance can raise money to remove the offending mountain.)

I know which mountain you're referring to. (The mountain WFME-FM/DT/WNJN-TV/DT/WMBC-DT/WNJU-DS is on, right?)

All the digital TV stations (except WNET-DT which would only work in one particular position, due to the low power, and WFUT-DT was was dropping out on me) I tried were solid and stable (2, 4, 5, 7, 9, 11, 29, 31, 41, 47, 50, 63), and the analog AM and FM stations sounded nearly or completely clear, but the IBOC would not stay locked for any length of time.

- Trip

 

[R.F. Burns]

The mountain in South Orange where WFMU, WFME and WVNJ once was is different than the mountain located off of Rt 80 in the Clifton area that is filled with iron and effects not just digital reception but also analog radio (Check out 440 Mhz operation in and around that area). For years after the construction of the WTC but before stations moved their transmitter site to the WTC people living in Bayonne who tried to receive analog TV had terrible ghosting problems. Somehow the survived. If you live on or near a mountain made up mainly of Iron, you're going to have reception problems. If you receive a perfect analog signal but no digital reception than maybe the 10% increse in power that HD broadcasters are asking for willl solve your problems. Time will tell and patience is the key word here but just because you have problems in your one area doesn't mean that the technology is flawed, when most of us have perfect reception from much further distances..

 

[Play Freebird]

If you receive a perfect analog signal but no digital reception than maybe the 10% increse in power that HD broadcasters are asking for willl solve your problems. Time will tell and patience is the key word here but just because you have problems in your one area doesn't mean that the technology is flawed, when most of us have perfect reception from much further distances..

Well, it's too bad the iBiquity hybrid system doesn't support the use of low power digital 'gap fillers' like Eureka, XM, and Sirius -- otherwise, these shadowing problems could be easily solved, without throwing more hash at the neighbors in Philadelphia and Hartford.

I would agree that a great amount of "patience" will be required until hybrid operation can be phased out and synchronized digital boosters become possible... we're talking at least 20 years of patience. But until we reach that point, the technology remains flawed.

Of course, this simply isn't an issue for wireless internet operators; there will be WiMax sites all over those hills.

 

[tripinva]

The mountain in South Orange where WFMU, WFME and WVNJ once was is different than the mountain located off of Rt 80 in the Clifton area that is filled with iron and effects not just digital reception but also analog radio (Check out 440 Mhz operation in and around that area). For years after the construction of the WTC but before stations moved their transmitter site to the WTC people living in Bayonne who tried to receive analog TV had terrible ghosting problems. Somehow the survived. If you live on or near a mountain made up mainly of Iron, you're going to have reception problems. If you receive a perfect analog signal but no digital reception than maybe the 10% increse in power that HD broadcasters are asking for willl solve your problems. Time will tell and patience is the key word here but just because you have problems in your one area doesn't mean that the technology is flawed, when most of us have perfect reception from much further distances..

That's interesting, I didn't know about that mountain.

Still, I've used my IBOC radio in three separate locations, and neither has given me acceptable reception. I've told you about my situation in New Jersey, and on the first page of this thread I mentioned my situation at home; but here at college I can see the towers from the window across the hall in my dorm, and yet cannot get the digital to decode on B1-class WVTW (though it does show the call letters on the display if I play with the antenna). The analog FM signals from that mountain are fine, and I can watch digital TV with my antenna just fine (analog TV is reasonable, though 5000 kW WVIR has a lot of ghosting), but the IBOC signal does not decode.

- Trip

 

[R.F. Burns]

Well it seems either you are doing something wrong or I am doing something right. My radios are the Boston Acoustics Receptor, the Sangean HD-T1 and the HD-T1X. All three work as advertised. I don't know what your location is like but WVTW is only a 1 Kw station. On the other hand up here in NY state I can listen to listen to WSOU's 2400 watts with a HAAT of 312 feet, which is significantly lower than WVTW's 1,041 feet. I receive a solid signal on both the HD-1 and the HD 2 channels and I am about 25 to 30 miles north of South Orange, NJ.

 

[KB1OKL]

It might be interesting to compare the paths between ESB and each receiving site. There's a significant shadow in north Jersey west of Montclair, which may account for much of this digital reception trouble. (Hopefully, the HD Alliance can raise money to remove the offending mountain.)

I have it on good faith that Strubie is going to complain to the FCC this week about that mountain and try to get the Satellite companies to remove it at their cost.

 

[R.F. Burns]

If i were still an active DXer I'd be more concerned that cmpanies like JRC have pulled out of the communications receiver market, then what Ibiquity is doing. I'd take the JRC pullout as a sign of things to come. Looks like with the advent of DRM and HD radio many of those radios are destined to make good doorstops in the future.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

Here's my reception report on a Kenwood EZ900, an older unit with no HD2 recption

Driving around Lafayette, LA I receive:
WYNK 101.5 (100kw@1500') with very few drop outs which is a Baton Rouge station, Transmitter about 50 miles from Lafayette as the crow flies.
WFMF 102.5 (100kw@1500' same stick as WYNK) is a different story drops out regularly because it is smached between two class C's (102.1 and 102.9 which runs HD)

Driving to and from Houston, the maxed class C's (KTBZ/KHMX/KODA, ect) kick in to Locked HD around Winnie, 65 or so miles from their tower.

This sounds more reasonable to me than the claims of HD in Huntsville - about 80 miles from the towers. Those are tall towers, the terrain to the east of Houston is flat unlike to the North where some significant hills begin.

It wasn't too many decades ago that getting FM stereo at 65 miles was quite an accomplishment. Advances in receiver design nearly doubled the range. HD radio is in its infancy - I think it is reasonable to allow receiver advances to work through the range issues, instead of risk increased self jamming noise by increasing sideband power.

 

[KB1OKL]

If i were still an active DXer I'd be more concerned that cmpanies like JRC have pulled out of the communications receiver market, then what Ibiquity is doing. I'd take the JRC pullout as a sign of things to come. Looks like with the advent of DRM and HD radio many of those radios are destined to make good doorstops in the future.

Nahh. they're too light, the good old R-390's, Nationals and Hammarlunds would be more like it.

 

[R.F. Burns]

If i were still an active DXer I'd be more concerned that cmpanies like JRC have pulled out of the communications receiver market, then what Ibiquity is doing. I'd take the JRC pullout as a sign of things to come. Looks like with the advent of DRM and HD radio many of those radios are destined to make good doorstops in the future.

Nahh. they're too light, the good old R-390's, Nationals and Hammarlunds would be more like it.

You can keep the boat anchors. They bring back nice memories but you get used to current radios which don't drift, don't require tubes, take up 25% of the space of those old radios and outperform them.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

You can keep the boat anchors. They bring back nice memories but you get used to current radios which don't drift, don't require tubes, take up 25% of the space of those old radios and outperform them.

Absolutely nothing I have tried beats a Hammarlund SP-600 JX for AM reception. Someone gave me a $700 Yaesu FRG-100, it doesn't even approach the Sensitivity of the Hammarlund. The only thing that comes anywhere near is a GE Superadio 1.

 

[R.F. Burns]

The GE Super Radio is not a real DX radio. You can't really do splits with it, because the bandwidth is way to wide, there's no synchronus detection. My Yaesu FRG 7000 Gilfer modified was OK for transatlantics in the early 80's. None of these radios approach a JRC 545 or the Drake R 8 line.

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/1545.html


Here's my portible receiver and while it's nice, it can't compare with a real communications receiver;

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/portable/0841.html

Here's my SW radio. While I've done transatlantics on both MW & LW with this radio it can't compare with the JRC receivers;

http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/commrxvr/frg7000.html

 

[KB1OKL]

If i were still an active DXer I'd be more concerned that cmpanies like JRC have pulled out of the communications receiver market, then what Ibiquity is doing. I'd take the JRC pullout as a sign of things to come. Looks like with the advent of DRM and HD radio many of those radios are destined to make good doorstops in the future.

Nahh. they're too light, the good old R-390's, Nationals and Hammarlunds would be more like it.

You can keep the boat anchors. They bring back nice memories but you get used to current radios which don't drift, don't require tubes, take up 25% of the space of those old radios and outperform them.

You can set an R-390A or an R-390 to any frequency and they'll still be right there all day after a short warm up period, best radios I've ever used, same with a Hammarlund SP-600, great radios. I've got a JX-26. I get splits with these radios all the time, besides they heat up the shack in the winter. One of the great things about 390A's are the mechanical filters, the slopes are so steep you can set it to 2 Khz wide and tune to a little above 1522 and get 1521 Saudi Arabia for example and the het is eliminated because it's right outside of the passband. The 390's accomplish the same thing with LC filters and seem to perform even better, I'm not finished with mine yet.

I have a couple of old GE Super radios a 1 and a II (only difference I can see is the tweeter on the II), they are kind of wide for splits but are still pretty good radios, they're great for domestic DXing.

 

[RichWood]

How far should I be able to receive my HD-FM station in my car? I'm getting my HD station flipping back and forth between analog and digital

Kenwood loaned me a receiver with a mag mount antenna mounted on the center of the car's roof. I drove about a 100 mile radius. In all cases I lost the digital about 15 miles before the analog became annoying to listen to. With my JVC with the car's stock antenna digital drops out about 20 miles before the analog gets bad. Some stations lost digital much sooner than analog. No station's digital equalled the analog coverage. I'm centered in Western Massachusetts.

Rich