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How long before News/Talk 104.7 hits No. 1?

P

Pratte4Life

I saw where 104.7 is now the number four station in town. Which gives me a chuckle- I remember how this board was alive with the "good source" that was going to change such a sucessful and needed format back to the failing "The Beat" or whatever it was.

Regardless, 104.7 has the signal and their syndicated hosts so outshine KDKA and WPTT's it's not even funny.

My question is- how much longer can this "straight upward climb" continue? There's the school of thought that KDKA and WDVE are stale and 104.7 is new and exciting.

Could 104.7 go all the way to No. 1?

There's still some work to be done- they need better weekend programming and the playing of Paul Anka or whoever he was singing hard rock songs as a lounge lizard behind the news simply did not work yesterday (why is it that I don't think Tim Russert or Bob Schieffer would do that?).

But do you think it is possible?
 
I doubt that 104.7 will ever beat WDVE. I don't doubt that it will climb higher as KDKA continues to fall. However, the better 104.7 does, the more likely that Infinity or some other player will attempt to counter them. KDKA has been in extended free fall, and from what I've heard from them, they're not doing anything to turn their ratings around, yet. But that "yet" is the key.

KDKA could implement some changes that could reverse their current downward trend. But for that to happen, there would need to be some major changes and shakeups. Based on what the current staff and management team has done, they haven't displayed any interest in changing anything in a meaningful way.

As I see it, KDKA has three options. One option is to attempt to take on 104.7 head-to-head by counterprogramming with different synidcated hosts, and hope for the best. The other is to continue doing what they're doing with the same tired local hosts who are already passed their sell-by date. The third option is to counter 104.7 by attacking the weakness of WPGB's strength. (This is a marketing concept from the book "Marketing Warfare" by Trout & Reis. If you're the least bit interested in marketing, you should read that book. It's fascinating.)

The strength of WPGB is all of their hosts except the sports guy are syndicated and only talk about national and international issues. Yeah, Quinn works out of a Pittsburgh studio, but he never talks about strictly Pittsburgh issues. So, the weakness of their strength is a lack of talk about things strictly about Pittsburgh. The trouble is, the current KDKA hosts don't do a very good job talking about Pittsburgh issues in an interesting fashion. Honsberger doesn't come across as a hard-hitting advocate for the common man's interests in the 'Burgh. He's just a grumpy old curmudgeon. Pintek tries too hard to come across as even-handed, and ends up sounding wishy-washy. Both of them appeal to old people, neither of them appeal to folks between 25 and 55 as much as the guys on WPGB. And, the KDKA morning show is simply boring.

Most local political talk I've heard on the radio has been boring. Others in this forum have pointed out that most local political talk is boring. But I believe it's not fundamentally and intrinsically boring, it's only boring because there have only been boring talk hosts talking about local politics. There has to be a few talented people out there who could rant about Pittsburgh issues in a manner that is as entertaining as the way Limbaugh or Hannity rants about national and international issues. Of course, Infinity wouldn't ever dream of doing anything to search for such people. And they'd never dream of something innovative, like auditioning people from other media who might turn out to be the next Rush Limbaugh.

So, to answer your question, it's possible that 104.7 will go a little higher, but I doubt that it will hit #1 overall. But it will continue to pound KDKA into a ratings pulp, and Infinity will sit back and watch it happen without doing anything meaningful to stop it.

> I saw where 104.7 is now the number four station in town.
> Which gives me a chuckle- I remember how this board was
> alive with the "good source" that was going to change such a
> sucessful and needed format back to the failing "The Beat"
> or whatever it was.
>
> Regardless, 104.7 has the signal and their syndicated hosts
> so outshine KDKA and WPTT's it's not even funny.
>
> My question is- how much longer can this "straight upward
> climb" continue? There's the school of thought that KDKA and
> WDVE are stale and 104.7 is new and exciting.
>
> Could 104.7 go all the way to No. 1?
>
> There's still some work to be done- they need better weekend
> programming and the playing of Paul Anka or whoever he was
> singing hard rock songs as a lounge lizard behind the news
> simply did not work yesterday (why is it that I don't think
> Tim Russert or Bob Schieffer would do that?).
>
> But do you think it is possible?
>
 
> I doubt that 104.7 will ever beat WDVE. I don't doubt that
> it will climb higher as KDKA continues to fall. However, the
> better 104.7 does, the more likely that Infinity or some
> other player will attempt to counter them. KDKA has been in
> extended free fall, and from what I've heard from them,
> they're not doing anything to turn their ratings around,
> yet. But that "yet" is the key.
>
>I agree. Honsberger was great in his prime. 15 years ago. Time to move on. The morning show is awful, and O'Reilly adds nothing to the station. With two sports stations in town, do they really need an evening sports show? I'd keep Pintek & Romigh in some sort of a combo show from 6-8, put Romigh in 8-10 and Pintek 4-6. Other than that, we start over. Probably heavy syndicating at first, but they really need to develop local talent. And add some balance. John MacIntyre comes to mind. Maybe a progressive talker like Stephanie Miller 9-noon; Lionel 10 PM-1; Maybe even a shrink in the afternoon: Joy Browne ??

I also agree that if KD doesn't do something soon, someone else will try to counter 104.7. I can definately forsee a progressive FM talker. Not necessarily Air America. Stephanie Miller, Ed Schultz, Lionel, Thom Hartmann, maybe Randi Rhodes from Air. It could happen and it could work. Will be interesting to see what (if anything) KD does this year. Gary Dickson overnight was safe programming, but will never more the station forward. They need to take some risks to counter 104.7.

As for 1360, until it moves to 910 it's largely a non-issue. Even then, the local hosts are past their prime, and their sydicated stuff is growing pretty stale too. Just how long was Bohannan been around? Without taking some risks, the investment in the move to 910 will be a waste of money.
 
> I also agree that if KD doesn't do something soon, someone
> else will try to counter 104.7. I can definately forsee a
> progressive FM talker. Not necessarily Air America.
> Stephanie Miller, Ed Schultz, Lionel, Thom Hartmann, maybe
> Randi Rhodes from Air. It could happen and it could work.
> Will be interesting to see what (if anything) KD does this
> year. Gary Dickson overnight was safe programming, but will
> never more the station forward. They need to take some
> risks to counter 104.7.

I could see someone maybe attempting a liberal talk station, but I don't see it succeeding in this market. Despite the heavy Democrat voter registration, Pittsburgh is populated more with old-school FDR Democrats than the more modern liberals. Also, there aren't many spare FM stations around that aren't corporate owned or doing reasonably well with what they've got already. I can't see the Froggies switching to liberal talk, nor any of the CC or Infinity stations. And I doubt if Steel City would flip WRRK that direction.

> As for 1360, until it moves to 910 it's largely a non-issue.
> Even then, the local hosts are past their prime, and their
> sydicated stuff is growing pretty stale too. Just how long
> was Bohannan been around? Without taking some risks, the
> investment in the move to 910 will be a waste of money.

I agree with you, but I don't expect to see anything exciting or innovating coming from Renda. That company seems to be very good at executing good, safe, solid, yet conservative plans. But it doesn't seem to have much track record of taking risks.
 
Wow! I agree with both of you, KDKA has that local appeal than 104.7 does not, however, KDKA's appeal is stale and outdated. I am not sure, but I am going to take a guess that more younger people listen to 104.7 than KDKA. Perhaps KDKA has become too much of a 'grandma's station' by targeting only older people. Perhaps if KDKA were to sharpen their local appeal and target more of a younger audience they could improve their ratings.


Just a thought.
 
Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> I saw where 104.7 is now the number four station in town.

> 104.7 has the signal and their syndicated hosts
> so outshine KDKA and WPTT's it's not even funny.

> Could 104.7 go all the way to No. 1?

Let's answer this question first ... Yes, it could. WKTQ-AM 1320 made it to No. 1 when it challenged then-Top 40s KDKA-AM 1020 and KQV-AM 1410.

More to the point, it could make No. 1 with demographics that KDKA won't be able to match. And as long as Clear Channel synergy includes cross-promotion with Fox Sports 970 and "Brother station" WDVE-FM 102.5, it could be a very impressive No. 1.

Better question: Could it stay No. 1?

(1) The writers who note the "hometown advantage" of talk show hosts on both KDKA and WPTT-AM 1360 have a valid point.
Quinn can fall back on it because he's only syndicated into the Alleghenies, the upper Ohio Valley and "the more fortunate suburbs of Cleveland."
Cannon has some national cachet because he's been on other talk shows as an expert on sports and the law.
While it's great to hear the talent of a Limbaugh (who once worked at Top-40 KQV and WIXZ-AM 1360) or a Hannity (Beck is slowly imploding and Savage is an acquired taste), Pittsburgh is still a market that appreciates local talent.

(2) Clear Channel can point to two Associated Press awards, which is proof it has enough Pittsburgh-based talent to mute critics of WPGB's Cleveland-based morning anchor (as good as Tom Moore actually is) and to do more than simply clip Channel 11 audio for its purposes. (I sort of wish Clear Channel might synergize, perhaps, its WKBN-AM 570 and WWVA-AM 1170 newsrooms with WPGB, if they're looking to save a few bucks, rather than tie Pittsburgh in with Cleveland's WTAM-AM 1100, but that's the hometown boy in me talking.)

> There's still some work to be done- they need better weekend
> programming.

And they need more than ABC news and canned Channel 11 weather overnight. But Clear Channel doesn't do things that trouble its bottom line. And as long as what it is doing with WPGB works, it won't. Which includes a weekend mix of best-of shows and some paid talk. (Dr. Winer, the epitome of Mon-Yough "health" talk, for instance.)

But what do I know?
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

Just to set the record straight, 13Q was NEVER No. 1 in the Pittsburgh market and KDKA was decidedly not Top 40 in 1973. They played AC music part of the day but were news/talk from 5 p.m. to 6 a.m. and Bogut's morning show was never heavy on music.


> Let's answer this question first ... Yes, it could. WKTQ-AM
> 1320 made it to No. 1 when it challenged then-Top 40s
> KDKA-AM 1020 and KQV-AM 1410.
>
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> (2) Clear Channel can point to two Associated Press awards,
> which is proof it has enough Pittsburgh-based talent to mute
> critics of WPGB's Cleveland-based morning anchor (as good as
> Tom Moore actually is) and to do more than simply clip
> Channel 11 audio for its purposes. (I sort of wish Clear
> Channel might synergize, perhaps, its WKBN-AM 570 and
> WWVA-AM 1170 newsrooms with WPGB, if they're looking to save
> a few bucks, rather than tie Pittsburgh in with Cleveland's
> WTAM-AM 1100, but that's the hometown boy in me talking.)

BUT! WKBN's newsroom is out of Cleveland, with the exception Jim Michaels and a couple others. WWVA's is probably out of CC Corporate Domination HQ in Independence, Ohio as well. Surprisingly, Cleveland seems to be a BIG hub for CC radio news--Cleveland's newsroom runs:

WTAM/WMJI/WMMS/WMVX/WGAR/WAKS--Cleveland
WHLO/WARF--Akron (with an Akron-based anchor, but C-Town newsroom actualities)
WPGB--Pittsburgh (and maybe some other CC-Pittsburgh cluster stations)
WKBN--Youngstown (anchors and actualities)
WWVA--Wheeling (I believe)
WTMJ--Milwaukee (!)

That's synergy for you.
 
> Wow! I agree with both of you, KDKA has that local appeal
> than 104.7 does not, however, KDKA's appeal is stale and
> outdated. I am not sure, but I am going to take a guess
> that more younger people listen to 104.7 than KDKA. Perhaps
> KDKA has become too much of a 'grandma's station' by
> targeting only older people. Perhaps if KDKA were to
> sharpen their local appeal and target more of a younger
> audience they could improve their ratings.
>
>
> Just a thought.
>

KDKA does try to target a younger audience. Their imaging will blow the ears off older people. They try to promote Paul Alexander as someone who has a lot of attitude. They've tried to make the morning show more contemporary, too. It doesn't matter how you wrap it, people see what's inside -- a boring and largely irrelevant station, the one your grandparents have on all the time.
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> Just to set the record straight, 13Q was NEVER No. 1 in the
> Pittsburgh market and KDKA was decidedly not Top 40 in 1973.
> They played AC music part of the day but were news/talk from
> 5 p.m. to 6 a.m. and Bogut's morning show was never heavy on
> music.
>
>
> > Let's answer this question first ... Yes, it could.
> WKTQ-AM
> > 1320 made it to No. 1 when it challenged then-Top 40s
> > KDKA-AM 1020 and KQV-AM 1410.
> >
>
Mea culpa. The mind can play tricks trying to go back 30-plus years.

My point remains, however, that WPGB can make it to No. 1. Staying there might be the real trick.
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> > (2) Clear Channel can point to two Associated Press
> awards,
> > which is proof it has enough Pittsburgh-based talent to
> mute
> > critics of WPGB's Cleveland-based morning anchor (as good
> as
> > Tom Moore actually is) and to do more than simply clip
> > Channel 11 audio for its purposes. (I sort of wish Clear
> > Channel might synergize, perhaps, its WKBN-AM 570 and
> > WWVA-AM 1170 newsrooms with WPGB, if they're looking to
> save
> > a few bucks, rather than tie Pittsburgh in with
> Cleveland's
> > WTAM-AM 1100, but that's the hometown boy in me talking.)
>
> BUT! WKBN's newsroom is out of Cleveland, with the exception
> Jim Michaels and a couple others. WWVA's is probably out of
> CC Corporate Domination HQ in Independence, Ohio as well.
> Surprisingly, Cleveland seems to be a BIG hub for CC radio
> news--Cleveland's newsroom runs:
>
> WTAM/WMJI/WMMS/WMVX/WGAR/WAKS--Cleveland
> WHLO/WARF--Akron (with an Akron-based anchor, but C-Town
> newsroom actualities)
> WPGB--Pittsburgh (and maybe some other CC-Pittsburgh cluster
> stations)
> WKBN--Youngstown (anchors and actualities)
> WWVA--Wheeling (I believe)
> WTMJ--Milwaukee (!)
>
> That's synergy for you.
>



Actually it's WISN in Milwaukee, not #1 rated WTMJ.
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> Actually it's WISN in Milwaukee, not #1 rated WTMJ.
>

Yes. Oh my God--what a mistake. WTMJ isn't even a CC station! What a mistake to make.
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> WTAM/WMJI/WMMS/WMVX/WGAR/WAKS--Cleveland
> WHLO/WARF--Akron (with an Akron-based anchor, but C-Town
> newsroom actualities)

640/1350 have the capable Tom Duresky as anchor, indeed based at CC Akron/Canton on Freedom Avenue in Jackson Township, through morning drive and into early afternoon, and I'm pretty sure he compiles most of his own audio, if only for in-house/phone stuff.

After about 2 or 3 in the afternoon, the CC World Domination HQ in Independence takes over (Mary Sherman, Carmen Angelo, whoever's anchoring WTAM). All the weekend news updates are out of 'TAM, too. As I once pointed out, Independence is a mere 20ish miles from downtown Akron. ;)

1350 never ran the news updates as a sports station. They added them the opening day of the libtalk format. Tom and the WTAM anchors changed the outcue to a generic "Akron/Canton Newsroom" so the same updates can be used on both stations without editing. And since both stations take the :03 ABC Information Network cutaway :)05 on weekends), the newscasts air at the same time on both 640 and 1350. :D

> WKBN--Youngstown (anchors and actualities)

I'm pretty sure 'KBN is now similar to WHLO/WARF, with a local anchor in morning drive and at least into middays. I've also heard Jim Michaels doing local anchor work in afternoons...I get the idea that Jim does afternoons in studio when there's no field reporting to be done, and WTAM/CC Cleveland takes over the anchoring if he has to leave the building.

> WWVA--Wheeling (I believe)

I think they do local AM drive stuff...and I don't know if Cleveland's feeding them anchor folks.

-OA
 
Re: Yes, it could be No. 1. However ...

> 640/1350 have the capable Tom Duresky as anchor, indeed
> based at CC Akron/Canton on Freedom Avenue in Jackson
> Township, through morning drive and into early afternoon,
> and I'm pretty sure he compiles most of his own audio, if
> only for in-house/phone stuff.

Oh, I forgot to mention that Tom also does news updates on WKDD in AM drive. It was Barbara Adams' job for many years, but Angela Bellios now does traffic (for WKDD AND for WHLO/WARF, I presume, I've at least heard her on WHLO) in addition to her co-host duties with Matt Patrick.

-OA
 
You're forgetting something.

> KDKA does try to target a younger audience. Their imaging
> will blow the ears off older people. They try to promote
> Paul Alexander as someone who has a lot of attitude. They've
> tried to make the morning show more contemporary, too. It
> doesn't matter how you wrap it, people see what's inside --
> a boring and largely irrelevant station, the one your
> grandparents have on all the time.

You're forgetting one important thing. Imaging is only heard by the people who listen to your station. Nothing that you put on the air means diddly-squat to people who don't ever tune your station in to hear what's there.

Maybe someone with an antique radio with a rotary tuning dial might accidentally light on KDKA for a moment whilst changing stations. But people with antique radios are already listening to KDKA. And since they're on AM, they have to get peole to take two deliberate actions to sample KDKA. They have to convince them to switch to AM, then convince them to tune in 1020.

Perhaps they think that both of the Pirates fans under the age of 50 might stick around to hear the talk shows after the ball game is over.
 
Re: You're forgetting something.

> Perhaps they think that both of the Pirates fans under the
> age of 50 might stick around to hear the talk shows after
> the ball game is over.

Huh? The Pirates may be the only thing that draw youger people to KDKA and there are many, many people < 30 going to Pirates games.

The problem with KDKA more than anything is simple...

They stopped trying long ago and have forgotten how. And it shows. To radio people who recognize the tired sound (although the imaging is better these days) as well as to the general public who perhaps cannot put their finger on it but knows that the station simply is not cutting it. It's not "respectable"...and radio still needs to be something one can respect (or at least something that "sounds bigger") to be successful.

Why is KDKA not respectable? Claiming to be a news leader yet running no local news late nights or weekend afternoons and nights. Failing to professionally catch major traffic accidents and other news as it happens. Eliminating CONTENT for infomercials during significant weekend dayparts. And more.
 
Consider this, if you will...

Consider this, if you will ...

(1) KDKA utilizes Channel 2 audio.
(2) WPGB utilizes Channel 11 audio.
(3) If I am not mistaken, Channel 53 audio is part of the Metro package fed to WPTT and some other Pittsburgh area radio stations.
(4) And WPTT turns over two hours of morning drive Monday through Friday to Channel 4.

In fact, again if I am not mistaken, the only radio stations that actively tout news and do not have a TV tie are KQV-AM 1410 and WDUQ-FM 90.5.
I presume WAMO-AM 860/FM 106.7 also has reporters, as I see their flags on occasion and it is the flagship for American Urban Radio Network.
But I suspect the Second Coming will occur before one ever sees a WPGB flag anywhere ... not counting promos like that recent contest to guest host Ellis Cannon's show.

KQV does have a newspaper tie ... it gets carbons at night from the Tribune-Review ... but it isn't hard these days for even the most inept ... or, let's be honest, most overworked ... newsroom staffer to keep up to date with the ongoing flow of breaking news from Trib and Post-Gazette Web sites.

To be fair to KDKA, KQV only breaks in with local if necessary during CNN Headline News. And with live, local talk for much of its overnight and weekend schedule (much, not all, I do hear those infomercials, too), it's not hard for KDKA to provide live coverage as necessary.
And, like it or not, KDKA can tap the audio of its TV sibling, as it has during severe weather at night.

Clear Channel's response will be, go to the Web site. Nice if you have Internet.
And, frankly, most of the time, if the power is on, who doesn't? (Then again, the operative words are, IF THE POWER IS ON.)

Four words ... public interest, convenience and necessity.
The FCC still gives lip service to them.
They're remembered often enough by Calvary (KQV).
They're usually remembered even now by Infinity (KDKA).
The jury is still out on Clear Channel (WPGB).
 
Re: Consider this, if you will...

> But I suspect the Second Coming will occur before one ever
> sees a WPGB flag anywhere ... not counting promos like that
> recent contest to guest host Ellis Cannon's show.

That's because they use the Channel 11 audio as their local source. There is not, as far as I know, a Pittsburgh-based radio news ground team in the CC-PGH cluster; anchors are in Cleveland, and local clips are provided by whatever TV station they have a relationship with. Since CC doesn't have a c-owned TV station in town, I assume they could have a deal with any of them (except KDKA of course), but choose Channel 11.

With no local news team on the ground, there's no need for 104.7 mic flags.
 
Re: Consider this, if you will...

> With no local news team on the ground, there's no need for
> 104.7 mic flags.
>
There's a GREAT need for 104.7 mic flags. It's to put the 104.7/WPGB name in front of people watching news events on television. It's called promotion. Hell, it would pay CC to send guys to news events to shove a mic with a flag in front of newsmakers' faces even if the mic isn't even connected to anything. It's no different than having the guy with the logo on the baseball cap lurking in the background at the winner's circle in NASCAR races.
 
Well, actually

I'm not sure about Mic Flags, but I do know 104.7 is very active in getting their logo out.

Perhaps some of the posters on this board haven't seen them because they lean to the left- but there was a 104.7 ballon at the George Bush rally at the PG Pavillion the day before the election. I know that many of the local GOP offices during the election had 104.7 logos or stickers up and being piped in to their offices.

Also, 104.7 has done a great job in promoting themselves on billboards- be it when they debuted and put up "Sean Hannity- 3 p.m." or "Ellis Cannon- 6 p.m."- or the more recent ones with pictures of Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Pratte4Life on 06/10/05 01:41 PM.</FONT></P>
 
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