How many stopsets?

[RadioDad08]

Taking a little poll... how many stopsets do you run, (not am drive) let's say 10a-7p?

Two longer breaks? 3 shorter breaks? I'm trying to figure out pros and cons.

 

[Roger That]

Stopsets are tune-outs for your listeners...you shouldn't have any more than necessary. Two is definitely better than three.

 

[landtuna]

From a pure listener perspective.....

Stopsets don't bother me so long as they are short and inoffensive. Max one minute and no advertiser shouting at me. Pretty simple. Anything longer or more annoying than that is when I hit the button.

 

[Roger That]

From a pure listener perspective.....

Stopsets don't bother me so long as they are short and inoffensive. Max one minute and no advertiser shouting at me. Pretty simple. Anything longer or more annoying than that is when I hit the button.

I think most listeners would agree. However, you're not likely to get sign-off on 1-minute breaks, and the majority of radio commercials suck out loud. Until we, as an industry, start creating better, more entertaining commercials (read: stop having sales people write them, and hire real copywriters/ad campaign pros), they will continue to be a tune out.

 

[finallyescaped]

I've been streaming dozens of stations lately as part of research for a book I'm writing for 2010 release. I've heard everything from 1 10-minute stopset per hour to seven 60-120 second breaks per hour. Each have their pros and cons. These two extremes are both fairly new presentations for these two stations (less than 90 days), so I'm really watching to see what ratings do over the next 6-12 months. I know there are other factors, but stopsets are so often discussed that I'll be watching closely because of this.

 

[12 In a Row]

In a music format I'm for 3 short breaks an hour, 10 units max.

Most stations opt for 2 LONG breaks at 20 and 50.
It's a killer for both the listener and advertiser.

Who pays attention to the 4th or 5th or 6th commercial?
Plus, you're not giving your advertiser their just do.

Some stations even say after a long break, "Enough of those annoying commercials, now back to the music!"

We wonder why radio revenue continues to fall.

I agree on creative. The next generation's B.S. meter is more fine tuned than ours.

 

[Roger That]

In a music format I'm for 3 short breaks an hour, 10 units max.

Most stations opt for 2 LONG breaks at 20 and 50.
It's a killer for both the listener and advertiser.

Who pays attention to the 4th or 5th or 6th commercial?
Plus, you're not giving your advertiser their just do.

Some stations even say after a long break, "Enough of those annoying commercials, now back to the music!"

We wonder why radio revenue continues to fall.

I agree on creative. The next generation's B.S. meter is more fine tuned than ours.

If you have any access to PPM data, I implore you to look at it. Stopsets are tune-outs. Why would you increase the number of tune-outs on your station on purpose? We agree that if the creative would improve, it would lessen the burden (which would also be the case in a longer, two-stopset example).

While we do have a responsibility to help Sales and clients, we're responsible for putting the best programming product on the air. And, as this was posted in the Programming section, I assume the question is intended to be: "What is the best programming decision to make on this topic?"

That answer is two stopsets. ;D

 

[landtuna]

It isn't only the stopset that aggravates the listener. It's also the type and number of like spots. For instance, KOOL used to run a long stopset at :50 and :10 punctuated by DJ blabber and the news (if you call three headlines and much in-studio hilarity "news").

The stopsets generally consisted of a series of motor vehicle dealer commercials one after another. Not only were they offensive in nature (lots of compression, loudness and yelling - kind of like the WWE) but they blended together and, once offended, the listener probably tuned out very quickly (if not actually hitting the button).

In the old days there weren't a lot of alternatives to this type of programming. If you wanted to listen to a particular genre you had maybe two, maybe only one, choice (unless you were in a large market). Now there are lots of choices and once the button is hit it generally doesn't come back.

Stations would do well to listen to their own product as the average listener does. There are ways to air commercials (which everyone agrees are necessary) so that they don't irritate the audience you are trying to hold on to.

 

[Roger That]

It isn't only the stopset that aggravates the listener. It's also the type and number of like spots. For instance, KOOL used to run a long stopset at :50 and :10 punctuated by DJ blabber and the news (if you call three headlines and much in-studio hilarity "news").

The stopsets generally consisted of a series of motor vehicle dealer commercials one after another. Not only were they offensive in nature (lots of compression, loudness and yelling - kind of like the WWE) but they blended together and, once offended, the listener probably tuned out very quickly (if not actually hitting the button).

In the old days there weren't a lot of alternatives to this type of programming. If you wanted to listen to a particular genre you had maybe two, maybe only one, choice (unless you were in a large market). Now there are lots of choices and once the button is hit it generally doesn't come back.

Stations would do well to listen to their own product as the average listener does. There are ways to air commercials (which everyone agrees are necessary) so that they don't irritate the audience you are trying to hold on to.

100% agree with you. Problem is two-fold, though.

1) As programmers, stopsets are the things we have the least control over. We can do little within our building to improve the quality of spots (without doing it ourselves), and making fluid stopset changes is like raising the Titanic in most places. All the moving parts involved in restructuring traffic clocks is a LOT of work. If you think your sales staff hates you now, change their clocks once a week.

2) What you're suggesting requires a level of "executive production" on your radio station that few can or will do. PD's don't even aircheck their talent anymore, much less listen to their radio station objectively. And even fewer have evolved from the "OMG, listen to this awesome sound effect in this 90 second promo" mentality that still plagues our industry. It's why a newer generation of radio people (and a select few vets that actually have the ability to evolve) will be successful faster and be the catalyst for change we need. As mentioned previously, their BS meter is much more attuned, remembering what it was actually like to be a listener.

 

[Mainedude2007]

In a music format I'm for 3 short breaks an hour, 10 units max.

I'm all for that, the stations I've been at usually have 2 with an optional 3rd, and that ones pretty short, but maybe it's just a light commercial load you can have at times.

 

[franksandhotdogs]

I run two medium-length stopsets (at :25 and :40) with an optional third on a CHR.  I cringe when a station takes a commercial break, followed by one song, then stops down for another break!  Just as long as they're separated enough to not run into each other when there's a heavy commerical load is good enough.  I use sync codes in my automation system to drop songs so stopsets run on time.

Personally, I'd rather have three short stopsets (rather than one or two long ones), because perhaps the listener might sit through if they know it's only a minute or two.

 

[12 In a Row]

What a rock and a hard place, and it's only gotten worse.

Not uncommon these days for stations to run 5,6 and even 7 units.
A disservice to both the listener and advertiser.

As stated, at one time listeners had to sit through a few commercials to hear their favorite music and advertisers knew they had a captive audience.

I-tunes, I-pods and the rest satisfy your musical tastes.
Advertisers now look to other forms to get target their message without all the clutter.

 

[SirRoxalot]

You might want to take a look at Arbitron's PPM study on the impact of commercials, and Arbitron's Spot Load Study 2005, which is based on telephone interviews with Arbitron diarykeepers. The answer isn't as simple as it might first appear. Listeners' attitudes toward commercial breaks depends on age and format. Not surprisingly, younger (12-24) listeners prefer shorter breaks, and fewer commercial in general. Older listeners - 35+ - are much less likely to tune out during commercials.

One universal finding is that the quality of the commercials plays a large part in the perception of the stopset length. One "annoying" spot can do much more damage that several entertaining and/or informative spots.

In general, listeners prefer fewer commercials. They've expressed a preference for three 4-unit stopsets over two 6-unit stopsets. Once again, age demographics and overall stopset lengths affect preferences.

 

[davideduardo]

In general, listeners prefer fewer commercials. They've expressed a preference for three 4-unit stopsets over two 6-unit stopsets. Once again, age demographics and overall stopset lengths affect preferences.

However, when you monitor actual behaviour using the PPM as opposed to asking people what their perceptions are, you will find that two stops with about 6 minutes each is much better than 4 3 minute stops, and the perception of listeners who hear each is that the one with fewer and longer sets has less commercials.

This is why nearly everyone who had been going to 3 and 4 stops in PPM markets is now back at 2 stops. A bit of time with Media Monitors is enough to cure any PD of the temptation to do more and shorter stops. The listener just has more chances to leave.

 

[davideduardo]

PD's don't even aircheck their talent anymore, much less listen to their radio station objectively.

Every PD I work with airchecks, and a number do daily aircheck and planning meetings with the personality shows.

To say, generically, that they do not is paiinting with a brush that is way too broad.

 

[davideduardo]

Stations would do well to listen to their own product as the average listener does. There are ways to air commercials (which everyone agrees are necessary) so that they don't irritate the audience you are trying to hold on to.

In the larger markets, a huge percentage, sometimes the majority, of spots come from agencies. There is no changing of an agency spot, unless by accident they sent you the cut that was for a different format.

 

[landtuna]

Stations would do well to listen to their own product as the average listener does. There are ways to air commercials (which everyone agrees are necessary) so that they don't irritate the audience you are trying to hold on to.

In the larger markets, a huge percentage, sometimes the majority, of spots come from agencies. There is no changing of an agency spot, unless by accident they sent you the cut that was for a different format.

I was referring to the "packaging" surrounding the spot more than the spot itself but you raise another point.

I understand that the station has to please the advertiser if it is to continue in business but as the PD would I not have some control over the type of spots airing in my given format? In other words, could I suggest to the agency what type (variety) of spot I wish to air to my listeners? I understand the agency is probably creating their spots based on tons of research but shouldn't the PD know his/her listeners best?

If it isn't already too obvious I can cite an example of us....ahem.....'older' listeners (Classic Hits/Oldies/Smooth Jazz) not wanting to be bombarded with car dealer shoutfests in the same manner as a younger audience. And, in fact, comparing KOOL to KSLX (both 'classic' stations) to KYOT (smooth jazz) I don't remember ever hearing an obnoxious car commercial on either KSLX or KYOT whereas they seem prevalent on KOOL.

 

[Roger That]

PD's don't even aircheck their talent anymore, much less listen to their radio station objectively.

Every PD I work with airchecks, and a number do daily aircheck and planning meetings with the personality shows.

To say, generically, that they do not is paiinting with a brush that is way too broad.

I'd love to know what size markets you're referring to. And by that, I mean I have a feeling they're in larger markets (most of your examples are from the largest of markets, and as an executive, you likely devote a majority of your time to these markets), which would all make sense. And by that, I mean that I don't really care because I know that if I actually challenge your response, that you will beat me to death with how great you are.

Regardless, it was an exaggeration to prove my point. It paints a broad stroke on purpose. I know that not EVERY PD has ceased to aircheck their talent, and I doubt that anyone would think that. I know that there are still some that do a great job of it, though I'd opine that they're very much in the minority.

Please stop nitpicking something that has very little to do with the topic at hand. You and I AGREE on the topic. I've seen the PPM data, and have spent time with Media Monitors. I know the answer, and have stated so. You're not the only one who knows what they're talking about.

 

[davideduardo]

[I understand that the station has to please the advertiser if it is to continue in business but as the PD would I not have some control over the type of spots airing in my given format?

Generally, unless the spot violates some regulation, the PD is not going to be able to say a car dealer spot is too loud.

In other words, could I suggest to the agency what type (variety) of spot I wish to air to my listeners?

No.

You can turn it down, and probably be on the blacklist at that agency, but they are not going to change a spot they may have produced for many stations, often in many markets, just because you do not like it.

I understand the agency is probably creating their spots based on tons of research but shouldn't the PD know his/her listeners best?

Spots, if researched at all, are done after they are created... the research will tell the agency what the consumer is like, but not how to write copy.

If it isn't already too obvious I can cite an example of us....ahem.....'older' listeners (Classic Hits/Oldies/Smooth Jazz) not wanting to be bombarded with car dealer shoutfests in the same manner as a younger audience. And, in fact, comparing KOOL to KSLX (both 'classic' stations) to KYOT (smooth jazz) I don't remember ever hearing an obnoxious car commercial on either KSLX or KYOT whereas they seem prevalent on KOOL.

KSLX and KYOT don¿t bill like KOOL, either.

 

[davideduardo]

I'd love to know what size markets you're referring to.

From #1 to below #50.

And by that, I mean that I don't really care because I know that if I actually challenge your response, that you will beat me to death with how great you are.

You are welcome to challenge anything I write... that's the way the forum works. And you also do not have to read specific responses, either.

I know that not EVERY PD has ceased to aircheck their talent, and I doubt that anyone would think that. I know that there are still some that do a great job of it, though I'd opine that they're very much in the minority.

It's not so much the minority thing as how many are told to aircheck but don't know how. I cringe at stories talent tells me of stations where airchecking means verbal abuse: you did this wrong, and that wrong, and the other thing wrong. I'm partial to prepping for an aircheck by finding one good thing to reinforce and one thing that could be done better... often the talent will tell you how they could make it better without even saying anything negative.

Please stop nitpicking something that has very little to do with the topic at hand. You and I AGREE on the topic. I've seen the PPM data, and have spent time with Media Monitors. I know the answer, and have stated so. You're not the only one who knows what they're talking about.

Yet we see different interpretations... mine being that a station with a high commercial load that believes the Arbitron stuff about few listeners leaving even in long sets is drinking the Kool Aide... the listeners who don't like the high commercial load are already gone at stopset time since they quit cuming the stations.