How many titles in popular stations' playlists?

[GeneSavage]

I realize I risk starting a numbers war ("K123 is the BEST oldies station EVER... they have over 5,000 songs in rotation!" "Oh, yeah? You obviously haven't hear the REAL best oldies station, W789... they have over 10,000 in rotation all the time!!!") but I'm curious how many titles some of the POPULAR oldies stations carry.

To qualify, this can't be some 500 watt station on an island with more tourists than residents. I'm thinking the heavy hitters in New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, etc... and the ones that have generated good Arbitron numbers.

I suspect the successful stations are targeted more at the casual oldies listener rather than the rabid fan who'd be happy hearing nothing but alternate takes & obscure B-sides.

Having defined what I'm looking for, I'll ask again: how many titles does an oldies station these days rotate? 300? 500? 1500? Does the successful oldies station really rotation 5,000 titles?

Part two of this question: do you freshen those titles, or can oldies stations be successful playing 500 "evergreen" titles?

Extra credit: does the number of titles you need to rotate to develop a good cume & TSL change from the 50s, to the 60s, to the 70s?

Thanks for the info. I've seeing spitting matches where each poster wants to brag about longer and longer playlists. That's nice, & maybe enjoyable for those of us who are active listeners, but for your typical Anytown USA, I'm wondering how few it takes to keep from burning an audience out in three months.

Perhaps one more question: is every oldies station doomed to either push the era covered by the station forward or slowly bleed audience over a handful of years as people burn on the the hits of yesteryear? Or (as long as you don't mind your audience aging), with the right number of titles can an oldies station hold their audience for, say, a decade with minimal loss?

 

[CTListener]

If you go by the stats on yes.com, typical oldies/classic hits stations like WODS Boston and WOGL Philadelphia play no more than 500 titles in an average week. WDRC-FM Hartford cycles through about 1,000, but quite a few of those are part of special segments -- the Top 9 and 9, the Twin Spins at 10, the themed weekend, the Saturday request show -- so the regular rotation is probably closer to 700. WLNG Sag Harbor plays several thousand titles, but it's a unique operation that's kind of an eastern Long Island institution and doesn't have major-market advertisers to worry about attracting.

 

[GeneSavage]

So about 500... thanks for the info! (Shoulda thought about checking yes.com.)

I'll see if I can satisfy my curiosity on other related topics through Yes.com... again, I appreciate your answer! That's exactly what I was looking for.

(FYI, in case you're wondering why I'd ask, I work at a 50s/60s/70s(/80s?) station during the day that rotates something around 1,000 titles which feels like both too few & too many at the same time (burnout vs not enough "hits" focus) and I run an all 80s internet station that rotates 1,000 cuts as well.

My 80s format feels a little crispy (songs from '84 & '85 turn over every 40 hours) but I'm also sure I listen to it a lot more than a typical listener.)

 

[CTListener]

So about 500... thanks for the info! (Shoulda thought about checking yes.com.)

I'll see if I can satisfy my curiosity on other related topics through Yes.com... again, I appreciate your answer! That's exactly what I was looking for.

(FYI, in case you're wondering why I'd ask, I work at a 50s/60s/70s(/80s?) station during the day that rotates something around 1,000 titles which feels like both too few & too many at the same time (burnout vs not enough "hits" focus) and I run an all 80s internet station that rotates 1,000 cuts as well.

My 80s format feels a little crispy (songs from '84 & '85 turn over every 40 hours) but I'm also sure I listen to it a lot more than a typical listener.)

The problem with an '80s format is that playlists on CHR stations got tighter during that decade, especially toward the end. Most listeners would barely remember songs that peaked in the 20s and 30s nationally during those years, especially if they're in major markets, because those old "top 40" stations turned into, essentially, "top 20" stations. The songs that were peaking in the 20s and 30s were either regional hits or MTV favorites that people were buying because of the videos, but the songs themselves weren't cracking that many radio playlists.

1982-86 were easily the most creative and, oddly, most commercial years for pop music that decade, so spinning "We Built This City" or "Easy Lover" every day and a half or so makes perfect sense to me. I don't think anyone's going to get burned out on them if you're spacing the plays correctly.

The big problem with the '80s is at the beginning and end. What do you do with the country crossovers of 1980-82 and the early rap of 1987-89? To me, this is a worse problem than pre-British Invasion music in a '60s format or early New Wave in a '70s format. Putting Alabama and Grandmaster Flash in the same playlist as Cyndi Lauper and Huey Lewis could really drive away listeners.

 

[firepoint525]

The problem with an '80s format is that playlists on CHR stations got tighter during that decade, especially toward the end. Most listeners would barely remember songs that peaked in the 20s and 30s nationally during those years, especially if they're in major markets, because those old "top 40" stations turned into, essentially, "top 20" stations. The songs that were peaking in the 20s and 30s were either regional hits or MTV favorites that people were buying because of the videos, but the songs themselves weren't cracking that many radio playlists.

Many of those mid-charting hits of the early to mid '80s got a second wind during the late '80s, and many of them became bigger hits the second time around.

We have discussed that at length in this thread here:

http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=120341.0

 

[firepoint525]

The big problem with the '80s is at the beginning and end. What do you do with the country crossovers of 1980-82 and the early rap of 1987-89? To me, this is a worse problem than pre-British Invasion music in a '60s format or early New Wave in a '70s format. Putting Alabama and Grandmaster Flash in the same playlist as Cyndi Lauper and Huey Lewis could really drive away listeners.

What do you do with the country crossovers of the early '80s? (It was actually 1980-1983, as "Islands in the Stream" was the last major country crossover of that era.) You ignore them entirely! Who says that you must address them? When I was 17 in the summer of 1981 between my junior and senior years of high school, "Elvira" was just burning up the airwaves on my local top 40 station! Problem was, none of us could understand why! I remember almost everyone at school saying that they absolutely HATED that song! So why was top 40 radio forcing it on us so hard?

As for the rap of the later '80s, a tricky answer here, but you CAN get away with playing SOME of it, in limited doses in isolated timeslots. A local station here in Nashville used to feature "It Takes Two" by Rob Base and D.J. EZ Rock on Saturday nights as part of their "supermix" produced by a company called SuperRadio. It was obviously never a major hit, but it worked well in context with other club hits and dance mixes, some of which also were not major radio hits.

 

[CTListener]

The big problem with the '80s is at the beginning and end. What do you do with the country crossovers of 1980-82 and the early rap of 1987-89? To me, this is a worse problem than pre-British Invasion music in a '60s format or early New Wave in a '70s format. Putting Alabama and Grandmaster Flash in the same playlist as Cyndi Lauper and Huey Lewis could really drive away listeners.

What do you do with the country crossovers of the early '80s? (It was actually 1980-1983, as "Islands in the Stream" was the last major country crossover of that era.) You ignore them entirely! Who says that you must address them? When I was 17 in the summer of 1981 between my junior and senior years of high school, "Elvira" was just burning up the airwaves on my local top 40 station! Problem was, none of us could understand why! I remember almost everyone at school saying that they absolutely HATED that song! So why was top 40 radio forcing it on us so hard?

High school kids weren't the money demo for top 40 back then; it was the 20- and 30-somethings. Those were the people who liked the Oaks and Kenny/Dolly and Alabama, not to mention the wimp-rockers like Air Supply. So that's why your local station was "forcing" them on you: because the station wouldn't be able to charge as much for advertising otherwise.

Anyway, I asked because NightAire was saying his Internet '80s format was sounding kind of "crispy" with only 800 or so songs on the playlist. One way to expand that playlist would be to do more with the non-MTV, non-rock songs on the decade's fringes. You obviously think that the risk of burning out "Money for Nothing" is much less than the risk of playing "Elvira" when it comes to potential loss of listeners. That seems to be the thinking at Sirius XM, too, where the '80s channel is shamelessly MTV-centric and marginalizes not only the decade's early and late years but plays no AC, no country and very little R&B, despite the heavy presence of those genres on the Hot 100 during the decade. Is there any empirical data showing that '80s musical nostalgia is predominantly for rock-oriented tunes from 1983 through 1987?

 

[Silkie]

We have an oldies station that changes its playlist at various intervals, and they keep about 1200 songs on the playlist at any given time - all really good stuff too.

 

[GridLeakBias]

The big problem with the '80s is at the beginning and end. What do you do with the country crossovers of 1980-82 and the early rap of 1987-89? To me, this is a worse problem than pre-British Invasion music in a '60s format or early New Wave in a '70s format. Putting Alabama and Grandmaster Flash in the same playlist as Cyndi Lauper and Huey Lewis could really drive away listeners.

What do you do with the country crossovers of the early '80s? ... When I was 17 in the summer of 1981 between my junior and senior years of high school, "Elvira" was just burning up the airwaves on my local top 40 station! Problem was, none of us could understand why! I remember almost everyone at school saying that they absolutely HATED that song! So why was top 40 radio forcing it on us so hard?

Dallas Frazier, songwriter and recording artist played with Ferlin Husky at the early age of 14 and released his first single, "Space Command", at age 14 in 1954. He wrote “Alley Oop”, a #1 for the Hollywood Argyles; “Timber I’m Falling”, a Ferlin Husky hit; “Beneath Still Waters” (Emmylou Harris); and of course – “Elvira”, covered by Kenny Rogers and the First Edition, Rodney Crowell and the Oak Ridge Boys, a smash hit for ORB in 1981(#1 Hot Country single, #5 Hot 100 and #8 Hot AC Tracks.)

When a song is as hot as this one was, it gets the air play. ;D

 

[firepoint525]

High school kids weren't the money demo for top 40 back then; it was the 20- and 30-somethings. Those were the people who liked the Oaks and Kenny/Dolly and Alabama, not to mention the wimp-rockers like Air Supply. So that's why your local station was "forcing" them on you: because the station wouldn't be able to charge as much for advertising otherwise.

So then, your next question should be who are you programming to NOW? If it is the (then) 20-30 somethings of the early '80s (who would be 50-60 somethings now) then go ahead and play "Elvira" and Air Supply, too, if you like. (Interesting to note that their career also went cold after 1983.) But if you're programming for the teens of that day (and that would obviously include me, at 46 now), then you would want to avoid those. Otherwise, you will have sort of an easy listening/MOR sound. If you're going to play any country, then play country-rock, like the Charlie Daniels Band, not country-pop like Kenny Rogers. Anyone who wants to hear the country crossovers of the '70s and '80s should seek out country oldies stations. "Crossover" hits are always forgotten on the formats to which they crossed over; they only get played (as past hits) on their "home" formats, in this case, country.

Anyway, I asked because NightAire was saying his Internet '80s format was sounding kind of "crispy" with only 800 or so songs on the playlist. One way to expand that playlist would be to do more with the non-MTV, non-rock songs on the decade's fringes. You obviously think that the risk of burning out "Money for Nothing" is much less than the risk of playing "Elvira" when it comes to potential loss of listeners. That seems to be the thinking at Sirius XM, too, where the '80s channel is shamelessly MTV-centric and marginalizes not only the decade's early and late years but plays no AC, no country and very little R&B, despite the heavy presence of those genres on the Hot 100 during the decade. Is there any empirical data showing that '80s musical nostalgia is predominantly for rock-oriented tunes from 1983 through 1987?

You obviously didn't read the rest of my reply, nor did you follow the link on my other reply. I addressed later '80s hits, both above, and on my other thread. I didn't suggest more airplay for "Money for Nothing." And as for the R&B crossovers, again, same adviice: check out their "home" format, R&B oldies.

 

[hornet61]

Live365 programmers and Net programmers have huge playlists.....a listeners dream come true.

 

[Silkie]

Live365 programmers and Net programmers have huge playlists.....a listeners dream come true.

Being consistent and consistently good is also a plus. You get a young person in a place where there is little to nothing for them, and they can wreak hell on an audience, especially if they have some old fart lavishing all manner of "graces" and "gifts" on them as they play havoc.

 

[hornet61]

Live365 programmers and Net programmers have huge playlists.....a listeners dream come true.

Being consistent and consistently good is also a plus. You get a young person in a place where there is little to nothing for them, and they can wreak hell on an audience, especially if they have some old fart lavishing all manner of "graces" and "gifts" on them as they play havoc.

Run this by me again???

 

[GridLeakBias]

Live365 programmers and Net programmers have huge playlists.....a listeners dream come true.

Being consistent and consistently good is also a plus. You get a young person in a place where there is little to nothing for them, and they can wreak hell on an audience, especially if they have some old fart lavishing all manner of "graces" and "gifts" on them as they play havoc.

I don't know what it is, but everytime someone mentions "old fart" I ask myself, why are they talking about me again. But I'm getting used to it, I've been an old fart for such a long time now.

Oh, there are other "old farts" in this world? ???

Nevermind. : ;D

 

[Silkie]

Live365 programmers and Net programmers have huge playlists.....a listeners dream come true.

Being consistent and consistently good is also a plus. You get a young person in a place where there is little to nothing for them, and they can wreak hell on an audience, especially if they have some old fart lavishing all manner of "graces" and "gifts" on them as they play havoc.

I don't know what it is, but everytime someone mentions "old fart" I ask myself, why are they talking about me again. But I'm getting used to it, I've been an old fart for such a long time now.

Oh, there are other "old farts" in this world? ???

Nevermind. : ;D

Nobody ever hears me complaining 'bout my geezer discounts. I earned the gray hairs that I have, fair 'n square, right along with the lines, which also reveal that I am a happy soul.

 

[GridLeakBias]

Live365 programmers and Net programmers have huge playlists.....a listeners dream come true.

Being consistent and consistently good is also a plus. You get a young person in a place where there is little to nothing for them, and they can wreak hell on an audience, especially if they have some old fart lavishing all manner of "graces" and "gifts" on them as they play havoc.

I don't know what it is, but everytime someone mentions "old fart" I ask myself, why are they talking about me again. But I'm getting used to it, I've been an old fart for such a long time now.

Oh, there are other "old farts" in this world? ???

Nevermind. : ;D

Nobody ever hears me complaining 'bout my geezer discounts. I earned the gray hairs that I have, fair 'n square, right along with the lines, which also reveal that I am a happy soul.

When I first turned old enough for "senior discounts" I was too embarrassed to ask for them. Now I have no trouble with, "Don't forget my senior discount, I'll have the ...." What the hey, living this long ought to be worth as much as I can get. Like the song says, "Don't worry, be happy."

And shame on the youngsters who make rude derogatory remarks about the older generation. They should remember that had we oldsters not gotten frisky, [they] would not be around to act and sound foolish.

 

[Silkie]

GLB, it does not occur to them that they will be old someday; nor does it occur to them that they will be at the mercy of the people they raised when they were younger. And the best part of the whole thing is that they would never believe it if you tried to tell them.

Thank heavens for some decent ones.

 

[GridLeakBias]

GLB, it does not occur to them that they will be old someday; nor does it occur to them that they will be at the mercy of the people they raised when they were younger. And the best part of the whole thing is that they would never believe it if you tried to tell them.

Thank heavens for some decent ones.

Yes Silkie, I agree.

However, we are fortunate that with age and maturity many members of the younger generation will gain in knowledge and wisdom and carry on the traditions we have grown up with and known as Americanism. I spend many hours weekly as a volunteer with high school youth, and I am proud that many of these youth are primed to be future leaders in U.S. society.

 

[GeneSavage]

Sorry to resurrect this, but I had missed some of the later replies.

Thankfully, with all of the songs in place now, the rotation is pretty good, I think... I ALMOST but NOT QUITE burn on our "hot" category... & I'm sure I listen more than your typical listener.

I've got to disagree with the idea of leaving out the country crossover & the rap. Had a listener, maybe a year younger than me, comment the other day that "finally, a station where I can hear Neil Diamond's 80s hits!"

Who could have predicted that as a selling point? Not me! Yet when those "loser" songs come on, the ones everybody says tests bad, the audience never drops. I've seen more drops during mega-hits than during Anne Murray's "Broken Hearted Me" or Tone Loc's "Funky Cold Medina."

Some of this may be because the 83 - 87 MTV-based stations are already out there... so perhaps I'm not "holding" a broad audience as I am appealing to a niche... but whatever the case, it's working.

Regarding the age of the audience: you're right that those older songs will appeal more to an older audience. But, as mentioned above, songs we kids turned our noses up at back then now hold some nostalgia... and when Barry Manilow's "Ships" only place once every 8 & 1/3 days (& good luck catching it the next time it plays, since it will be in a different daypart!), the nostalgia doesn't seem to burn... at least so far.

I am considering, but haven't yet, added the #1 songs from the Billboard rock charts. Unfortunately they don't start until 1981 & there is some overlap... but it could add some beneficial spice amongst the Lionel Richies & Whitney Houstons & Kenny Rogers.

Thanks for everybody's feedback! This has been very interesting.

 

[TheFonz]

I realize I risk starting a numbers war ("K123 is the BEST oldies station EVER... they have over 5,000 songs in rotation!" "Oh, yeah? You obviously haven't hear the REAL best oldies station, W789... they have over 10,000 in rotation all the time!!!") but I'm curious how many titles some of the POPULAR oldies stations carry.

To qualify, this can't be some 500 watt station on an island with more tourists than residents. I'm thinking the heavy hitters in New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Dallas, etc... and the ones that have generated good Arbitron numbers.

I suspect the successful stations are targeted more at the casual oldies listener rather than the rabid fan who'd be happy hearing nothing but alternate takes & obscure B-sides.

Having defined what I'm looking for, I'll ask again: how many titles does an oldies station these days rotate? 300? 500? 1500? Does the successful oldies station really rotation 5,000 titles?

Part two of this question: do you freshen those titles, or can oldies stations be successful playing 500 "evergreen" titles?

Extra credit: does the number of titles you need to rotate to develop a good cume & TSL change from the 50s, to the 60s, to the 70s?

Thanks for the info. I've seeing spitting matches where each poster wants to brag about longer and longer playlists. That's nice, & maybe enjoyable for those of us who are active listeners, but for your typical Anytown USA, I'm wondering how few it takes to keep from burning an audience out in three months.

Perhaps one more question: is every oldies station doomed to either push the era covered by the station forward or slowly bleed audience over a handful of years as people burn on the the hits of yesteryear? Or (as long as you don't mind your audience aging), with the right number of titles can an oldies station hold their audience for, say, a decade with minimal loss?

Well, since this is a '50s/early '60s board I believe the answer would be "zero". I know of no major markets that still program that format. Maybe someone can correct me.