How much more can we take, metro?

[MikeShannon914]

Chopper crash near Houston today kills 2 Metro employees...(http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/6056064.html)

Emergency Cessna landing last week in Princeton...

Crash and multiple deaths in Phoenix last year...

Chip Waggoner and Julie DeHarty's crash last year...

Plus that "hard landing" with Ben Laurie a while back, and the chopper crash near Webb Chapel and LBJ before that...did I miss any?

These incidents all reportedly involved Metro-leased or owned equipment. Are they using parts out of ValuJet's dumpster or something? Doesn't the FAA ever do inspections?

And no, before the phone starts ringing, I'm not trying to kick Metro while they're down. Anyone who works there and uses that equipment should be really concerned right now. I'm friends with some of those folks and I know "I" am very concerned for and about them. This job's not worth dying for, people.

Thoughts and prayers to the families of John Downhower and Dave Garrett.

 

[Megapsycle]

Chip Waggoner and Julie DeHarty's crash last year...

I've noticed Chip hasn't been "High above the Metroplex" in a few weeks... did Ch4 ground him?

 

[Britchesthedog]

Metro has always played cheap. Monty didnt want Laura flying a few years back either because of the shoddy maintenance record of metro aircraft. Their record goes back further Mike to the fixed wing crashing into an apt complex killing all aboard and two on the ground in Baltimore. A Tv chopper crashed in the Hudson river in NYC around the same time killing all aboard. ALl METRO. When Metro swapped stock with Westwood and acquired Shadow in the process, it got even cheaper.Atzinger started it ,bailed a few years back with a tidy sum, now you got your suits who dont fly in those craft saying they are safe. The reporters at Metro are good people and their producers .Its the management at all levels there that don't care as long as they have a thick wallet for themselves.

 

[Steve Eberhart]

How many of these crashes or "incidents" were determined by the FAA to be the fault of management or ownership and their attempts to lower costs or intentionally disregard safety requirements?

Until one knows the answer to that question, how can you speculate upon such a thing?

I flew in a Metro chopper for a good while several years ago. I never had any concern over the safety of the aircraft.
Granted we had some close calls. It happens, but none of them had anything to do with maintenance at all.

Ask yourself, do you really think any pilot would take off in one of those things if they had the slightest doubt of its airworthiness?!!

Would you get in your car today if you had the slightest indication that a wheel might fall off while going down LBJ at 50 or 60 mph? Of course you wouldn't!

Unfortunately, there is an inherint risk flying in any aircraft, and occasionally things go wrong and even more unfortunate is the fact that when it does, there is little room for error. In some cases like the Metro/Fox chopper last year the pilot is able to create a good end result. In some cases, everyone is not as lucky. It is tragic, horrible and sad, but it happens.

When things like this happen, people are often quick to place blame. Sometimes it is warranted. Sometimes it may not. I only suggest we should be careful who we accuse until we know the facts.

 

[Slambang]

Mike, I have to ask the question as well: Why hasnt the FAA investigated the parties metro is working with in these issue, not to mention fine them for faulty equipment?

 

[naughtytalker]

I've turned down two jobs in my life and one was reporting traffic from a helicopter.

 

[Britchesthedog]

Well Steve, again I feel that you being a station owner has diminished your part as a regular staff member. Every crash is investigated by the NTSB,and FAA. It takes awhile. Now how can I level this "cheapness" of Metro's aircraft supplier? Simple the two crashes I alluded to in my previous posts(Baltimore, NY) were found to be of shoddy maintenance of the owner. The KVIL hard landing with Starlene, John and a couple of others was found to be of the same company. Thats when Monty stood up and argued Laura (not to her) was not going to fly and neither would he unless the problem is fixed once and for all. Would a pilot go into a craft with known problems? Most likely not,but would the pilot actually know if he didnt ask? BTW the Baltimore,NT crashes,,false maintenance records were discovered. Did metro fire that company? NO they did not! Again take off the suit. The Metro reporters and producers are good people its their management that wants to save a few bucks for their year end bonuses,no matter the cost to safety.

 

[its time w (your name)]

I can tell you that safety records and consciousness varies considerably between aircraft operators. Metro- Houston chose Helicopters Inc. based on their reputation for safety, as the previous vendor, was notoriously inept.

It seems rather fateful that this happens after WWI pulls its big Clear Channel impression, axing half their players to pretty-up their bottom line. So, unfortunately, albeit karma that Metro now has the public perception of being fatally cheap.

 

[Steve Eberhart]

Well Steve, again I feel that you being a station owner has diminished your part as a regular staff member. Every crash is investigated by the NTSB,and FAA. It takes awhile. Now how can I level this "cheapness" of Metro's aircraft supplier? Simple the two crashes I alluded to in my previous posts(Baltimore, NY) were found to be of shoddy maintenance of the owner. The KVIL hard landing with Starlene, John and a couple of others was found to be of the same company. Thats when Monty stood up and argued Laura (not to her) was not going to fly and neither would he unless the problem is fixed once and for all. Would a pilot go into a craft with known problems? Most likely not,but would the pilot actually know if he didnt ask? BTW the Baltimore,NT crashes,,false maintenance records were discovered. Did metro fire that company? NO they did not! Again take off the suit. The Metro reporters and producers are good people its their management that wants to save a few bucks for their year end bonuses,no matter the cost to safety.

...ACTUALLY... I don't wear a SUIT to work and never have. As I mentioned, as a staff member, I did fly in a Metro chopper for a good while with NO reservations. You guys make all these accusations but they are based on what???...something a disgruntled former employee said??...seriously, if they were found to be at fault, I'd be the first to rip 'em...but ripping someone without factual knowledge is simply irresponsible. If that company had issues, the FAA would not allow them to fly! Surely you understand that concept.
And guess what, not one employee at Metro or any other broadcast outlet that I am aware of can MAKE you do ANYTHING you do not want to do. Don't wanna fly? No problem, do not accept that job and if it IS your job and you change your mind about that, then resign and find other work or ask to be reassigned.
I'm not towing ANY company line, I don't work for Metro. I'm just saying if you're going to spew about something, you really need to either have facts on your side or remain quiet.

 

[JEREMIAH]

I flew for Metro for 8 years in SF..before westwood one took over. it was still run by founder Dave Saperstein. I really enjoyed the gig...I also flew in the chopper for KGO at the same time. I never had any reservations abut maintenance. The only close call we had in the chopper was finding us about 20 over the KRON chopper one day. Surprise! Ironically..Saperstein was based in Houston!


Jerry Gordon KNUU Las Vegas

 

[JEREMIAH]

That's 20 feet over the KRON-TV chopper.

sorry,

JG

 

[MikeShannon914]

Argue all you want, folks, but the fact remains that Metro's name is (reportedly) tied in with all these crashes and problems, and regardless of fault, it reflects very badly on Metro. Metro, too, has a choice of what company to lease from, or to what level they maintain their own fleet, or what standards they impose on the lessor. So sure, it's a PR issue, but I'm afraid it also uncovers this ongoing thread of cheapness that has ultimately costed some folks their lives. I've spoken to too many Metro people, present and former, that have or have had reservations about their aircrafts. I never hear that about Traffic.com's lessor in Dallas. Sure, it gets on everyone's nerves when a craft is down for maintenance or repairs...the stations hate it, the reporters don't like it, and the final product can suffer some because of it...BUT...everyone has to understand that it's better than potentially losing your reporters AND your craft over someone's shortcut or lack of concern about maintenance.

And for those who haven't flown before or fondled a chopper firsthand (like I'm any pro here, but hear me out)...choppers are NOT built to survive a crash. The doors are thin fiberglass, the shell is thin sheet metal pop-riveted to the body, and there's really no safety features there...oh, I believe the seat cushion will indeed serve as a flotation device in the event of a water landing, but I don't think anyone would get a chance to use it if that happened, anyway. Weight is an important issue, so everything in a chopper is inherently light...and CHEAP...because of that. Ours has no A/C, no real ventilation system, no carpet, it has tweed seats that don't move or recline or adjust, no secure storage place inside the cabin, etc etc etc. These aren't complaints...it's reality. There's a measure of risk that comes with riding in a chopper, EVEN IF ALL THE MAINTENANCE IS DONE PROPERLY AND TIMELY, and even if you have the best pilot in the world (which we're very blessed to have at T.com in that respect.) You're also subject to the most silly, little things making a huge impact on fly-ability...one day a candy wrapper blew up and got attached to the propeller--they had to land immediately. Metro had that issue where a duck flew through the windshield a while back--yes, literally THROUGH the windshield. And the least little bit of rain or wind will dramatically change the chopper's performance.

But I also have to mention that some talent has bigger b@lls than others...I guess to "scoop" the other stations or something...but I've seen Chip Waggoner fly in VERY risky conditions many, many times, and have always been told that it's at his behest. Now if he's willing to gamble with his own life, I guess that's his business. But when Julie's on board, along with your pilot, let alone gambling with a $500,000 aircraft, well, that's a little different.

 

[pebcak]

The Houston crash was tragic, but while grieving for the pilot and reporter, lets not play fast and loose with the facts. Metro was NOT involved with either of the helicopters that collided last summer over Phoenix. One was a Helicopters, Inc. ship, the other was owned by US Helicopters. Each was contracted for by the respective stations. The pilots worked for the vendors, the videographers were station employees. No Metro connection. Britchesthedog mentioned the chopper crash in the Hudson river of several years ago, I believe that is in reference to the Jane Dornacker crash. That was an Engstrom helicopter (small ship) leased by WNBC Radio. Jane was employed by the radio station, the pilot (who survived) was working for the helicopter vendor - again no Metro connection. As for the KTRK crash - it will be 6 to 12 months at least before the feds will have a conclusion. There are literally hundreds of possibilities; mechanical failure, pilot incapacity, heck a migrating goose could have been sucked into the turbine. Without knowing the cause, to suggest that somehow Metro is culpable is irresponsible.

Folks seem to be finding plenty of things about Metro to criticize, a lot of it justified. But let's not blame them for things they had nothing to do with.

 

[realthang]

Mike, Your disdain for Metro is obvious, which negates any credibility that you think you might have.

Get real man…Metro is not in the aircraft business. Just like Traffic.com, they contract with outside vendors.

Let me know when the NTSB issues a report that states that Heli Inc was told by Metro to cut corners. :

 

[MikeShannon914]

Thanks, O.M....I love you, too. No, I just detest anything to do with CBS or anything they're in control of. But this post didn't come from that hatred; I was merely casting a light on the plight that keeps plaguing Metro and the aircraft it uses. I don't know the nuts-and-bolts of your aircraft ownership/leasing arrangements/whatever. It still stands to reason that even ONE death or ONE crash that happens on one's watch puts one's company in the spotlight.

No, it's not fair to attribute non-Metro incidents to Metro. Thanks to all who clarified. That's why I used the term "reportedly" in my posts where there was conjecture. I believe the point here is that, whether Metro had anything to do with (X) incident or not, if their people or lessors are involved, it will be attributed to Metro as a whole by the media. That's a PR nightmare, as attributing something bad to a major company is more eye-catching than, "It was (X) Helicopters, Inc" who owned and piloted and maintained the aircraft involved." It's also easy to match up incidents when you find a common thread, whether it's a real pattern or not. I'm already seeing these parallels in print, and you know the media is going to latch on to any related stories when something of the Montgomery County crash magnitude happens. But if I've painted the wrong picture here, I apologize. For me, this latest incident just underscores what I've heard from "within" over the years.

 

[Steve Eberhart]

Again....sorry, but the reporter can certainly make a suggestion, but the reporter does not make the decision to fly/not fly or anything else with regard to pilotting the aircraft.
That responsibility is entirely and solely the role of the licensed pilot.
When you suggest Chip "flew in VERY risky conditions many, many times", are you seriously suggesting he pilotted that aircraft??...I do not believe he ever did that. He might have asked his pilot to fly in what you might consider "risky conditions", but he has ZERO final say on whether that aircraft goes up or not.
I recall many occasions when I would ask to fly and be told no, (by a Metro contracted pilot). I recall many times when Channel 4's director would be asking me in my ear to have them "get closer" and the pilot just wouldn't do it. I also remember many times when the pilot wouldn't fly and the other reporters in the chopper would be upset thinking it was "fine to fly", and I'd look at them and say "your pilot just said it is not safe to fly, you really want to go up??!".

 

[scottythecynic]

Speaking of Chip, what is the legality that keeps him and Fox4 out of the air at present? Does it relate to the last hard landing? I've asked Chip personally but he advised he couldn't comment for legal reasons. I respect that. But hey, I'm not asking Chip now. Anyone know?

 

[1Letterman]

This is really simple.

People are losing their lives doing their jobs. While such things aren't exactly unforseeable, a company committed to the safety of its employees finds a way to make sure.

I know of helo companies who have NEVER had a crash. Ever.

If Metro was serious about it, they would have their own aircraft and spend a lot of money on the best maintenance and pilots. And equipment.

But that will never happen because Metro makes its decisions based upon how cheaply they can do something.

Is Metro totally to blame? Of course not.

However, if they wanted to change their perception as brainless bottom line tightwads, they do just what I suggested. Then, maybe they'd be perceived as "safety and people first" types--which would remove them from criticism in other areas.

They OUGHT to be criticized for crashes. Some people who have commented remind me of the NASA scientist who claimed that the last Challenger flight was 90% successful. Sorry pal, but when people die, it's 0% successful.

Blather on all you like about "Metro isn't in the aircraft business." SORRY, but if you're putting your employees in aircraft to perform their job function, you ARE in the aircraft business. Any other viewpoint is that of a neophyte. And if you didn't do EVERYTHING you could to make sure they were as completely safe as humanly possible, then you're at fault.

Finger pointing at vendors you VOLUNTARILY chose yourself? Just doesn't cut the mustard.

Metro doesn't have to order a company to cut corners. All they have to do is choose the lowest bidder and point at them? Really sad and pathetic attitude.

 

[realthang]

If Metro was serious about it, they would have their own aircraft and spend a lot of money on the best maintenance and pilots. And equipment.

Are you familiar with the saying, "How do you make a million dollars in aviation? Start with two million"?

Heli Inc is a good company with many years of ENG experience. Why in the world would Metro try to replicate something that is already available from a reliable vendor?

BTW, the FOX ship in Dallas was being maintained by the same local company that did and still maintains the Traffic.com ship.

 

[1Letterman]

If Metro was serious about it, they would have their own aircraft and spend a lot of money on the best maintenance and pilots. And equipment.

Are you familiar with the saying, "How do you make a million dollars in aviation? Start with two million"?

Heli Inc is a good company with many years of ENG experience. Why in the world would Metro try to replicate something that is already available from a reliable vendor?

BTW, the FOX ship in Dallas was being maintained by the same local company that did and still maintains the Traffic.com ship.

As the creative director in charge of the Bell Helicopter account while at Temerlin McClain, I know quite a bit about the helicopter industry.

You want to know why they should try and replicate what Heli has done? I don't think they should replicate Heli's efforts. They should EXCEED THEM.

REASONS FOR THIS????

Two men are dead. One leaves behind a four year old child. The other leaves behind a widow and children as well. THAT'S the reason.

WANT ANOTHER ONE????

The aircraft which crashed last had an airworthiness certification in 1997. One more time. 1997. And two men are dead.

Additionally, the Long Ranger copter they were in was a SINGLE ENGINE aircraft. Most helicopter experts will tell you that it is MUCH better to use an aircraft which makes use of two engines that EACH can fly the aircraft if one malfunctions. Double-redundancy is the keyword of that industry.

Except at Heli, apparently. You cannot with a straight face claim they, or the companies that hire them in this fashion, are doing ALL they can for the safety of those in the aircraft.