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How sounds our airchain with Orban 8400 in Amsterdam (stream)

W

wild007

Hi, as PD in Amsterdam @ WILDFM (a CHR station in The Netherlands) I'm curious how the overseas processings experts think about our processing chain.

The Setup:
Orban 8400
Behringer Composer (compressor limiter) + Behringer Ultrafex (exiter) to give a little dirty CHR sound and more 'round bass'

Stream is taken directly from the Orban output (anogue)

I appriciate to here from technicians/specialists at CHR stations is the US :)
128 KBPS STREAM: http://www.wildfm.nl/player.html

WILD FM Hitradio reaches 100.000 listerners a day in 15-35 year olds. (60% female, 40% male)

regards,
Dave
 
it does sound alittle dirty as you described it.sounds too smashed .can't the 8400 handle the stream by itself?Never been a big behringer fan and all that extra gear can actually work against your stream.(compressors & limiters working against eachother)i would open the sound up more, since you indicate 60% of your demo is female.ii would score it a C-Minus.But i must say Joerie Twisk sounds as good as she looks.Hot...
 
menotti1 said:
it does sound alittle dirty as you described it.sounds too smashed .can't the 8400 handle the stream by itself?Never been a big behringer fan and all that extra gear can actually work against your stream.(compressors & limiters working against eachother)i would open the sound up more, since you indicate 60% of your demo is female.ii would score it a C-Minus.But i must say Joerie Twisk sounds as good as she looks.Hot...
Click to expand...

;)
well, it's the same signal that goes to 4 STL's to feed our 4 FM transmitters.
Your are maybe right about to open the sound up more, especially your link to the female listeners. We have with this setup the highest MPX power of all the FM stations in Amsterdam, so there is space to make it sound more open.
Thanks for the post :)
 
i will try to send you a file off the air receiver using the Omnia 6EXI.Think it will give you a better idea what i'm talking about.Alot of your music type is already smashed,no need to repeat it in processing.i would try it with just the 8400.you might consider an Ariane for preprocessing before the STL.Have fun.
 
I think the exciter after the limiter is the wrong step, if that's the path...
What order are the processing steps in, just to be sure..?

In fact I think exciters add enough distortion that they should never be used anywhere except reproduction in a dance club, where
your upper volume peaks are basically unlimited, compared to max modulation concerns.

Exciters do give a hot sound, but throw too much distortion for use in broadcast.
I think you should try the aural exciter first or not at all.
I do as much as possible to make my files as hot sounding as possible , (sometimes too full and hot),
then use 2 different steps of limiting/compression for an AM.

If the audio gives the listener no occasion to hear 0%-10 mod levels, then dynamic range (loudness) is limited just as badly
as if it were always too low. The trick to loud is providing enough reference to "zero" that the limited dynamic range fools the ear into
perceiving something as louder than it really is.

So "opening up" the sound of this audio may in fact sound "louder" while yet it wouldn't be as "full".

The stream sounds good, I can take or leave the dirty, but I find the avg density a little too high.
 
Tom Wells said:
I think the exciter after the limiter is the wrong step, if that's the path...
What order are the processing steps in, just to be sure..?

In fact I think exciters add enough distortion that they should never be used anywhere except reproduction in a dance club, where
your upper volume peaks are basically unlimited, compared to max modulation concerns.

Exciters do give a hot sound, but throw too much distortion for use in broadcast.
I think you should try the aural exciter first or not at all.
I do as much as possible to make my files as hot sounding as possible , (sometimes too full and hot),
then use 2 different steps of limiting/compression for an AM.

If the audio gives the listener no occasion to hear 0%-10 mod levels, then dynamic range (loudness) is limited just as badly
as if it were always too low. The trick to loud is providing enough reference to "zero" that the limited dynamic range fools the ear into
perceiving something as louder than it really is.

So "opening up" the sound of this audio may in fact sound "louder" while yet it wouldn't be as "full".

The stream sounds good, I can take or leave the dirty, but I find the avg density a little too high.
Click to expand...

Hi Tom,

The path is (MPEG2 / Dalet playout system www.dalet.com)--> Behringer Ultra Fex --> Composer --> Orban 8400 --> Orban Opticodecs --> Transmitters

The thing you have to know is that everybody in The Netherlands uses Orban 8400/8500, so thats the reason we created a little pre-chain and trying to get our own unique sound. I agree that the Behringer units sounds dirty, but that's the reason I'm using them ;)
You are right about using exiters in general, but the brilliance option in the 8400 is a lot more worse (and gives a lot distortion) than using this exiter, in my opinion. the Ultrafex is worth tryinig in combination with a 8400, cause we've got a very nice high without distortion. The 8400 also can't make the round basses like the famous 8200, and with this setup I'm trying to get a little "8200 CHR feeling" with the loudness of the 8400.
(The stream is not a 100% copy of the final transmitter output because the Opticodec STL have also influence on the sound)

I have downsized the AVG density a little, and indeed a more open sound. Especially the link to our female demo to create a more open sound was a good one! Think we're happy now :D

I also got a comment about my "excellent" English in the mailbox, I know - sorry! ;)
 
If you want to create a different sound than your competitors...and you're all using Optimods...have you considered using a different box rather than cascading garbage before or after the 8400?

Just sayin'. I can kick an Optimod to the curb with a barefoot Omnia 6....and although I'm an Omnia fan...I'm sure there are other boxes that will give you a different sound or texture.... and sound better than the Orban.
 
wild007 said:
Hi, as PD in Amsterdam @ WILDFM (a CHR station in The Netherlands) I'm curious how the overseas processings experts think about our processing chain.

The Setup:
Orban 8400
Behringer Composer (compressor limiter) + Behringer Ultrafex (exiter) to give a little dirty CHR sound and more 'round bass'

Stream is taken directly from the Orban output (anogue)

I appriciate to here from technicians/specialists at CHR stations is the US :)
128 KBPS STREAM: http://www.wildfm.nl/player.html

WILD FM Hitradio reaches 100.000 listerners a day in 15-35 year olds. (60% female, 40% male)

regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Need hash to get over the processing and the content.

A little bit too smacked, even for pop. The hi-mids are near sibilant, and the bass seems to get sucked up by the processing working on other freqs. It's like the multiband stuff is counteracted by the wideband proceesor(s).

Back off or remove stuff from the chain.
 
The audio does seem more open today, and yet still reads well at low volumes.

I see the exciter gets the audio first, so that's a good thing.

Without buying new boxes, you may be able to make some simple mods between units.

A 600-ohm isolation transformer in each channel will do its best to restore asymmetric audio back to a sine wave.

Simple capacitive coupling will "smear" everything slightly but may still make things sound "better".

Almost everything has some effect on final sound, sometimes small things make a huge difference.

I can't offer any brand a versus brand b experience.

I use a much cheaper tube-based volume processor, an ART VLA in a 2-pass method, and I am very happy with the result.
 
ditto.IMHO, you are actually doing a disservice to the 8400 with all this behringer crap.a Properly tweaked 8400 would easily handle this stream and give you a better sound.Set it up right and let the 8400 do it's thing.you have too much gear fighting against the other.Does that make sense to you?You need to get a better understanding of how dynamics work in audio processing.mercuryvapor post is exactly what is going on with your stream.
 
I have a station I'm consulting with that uses an 8400. I'm not a big fan of over-processing as I like to hear the music as close as I can to the original cut with some dynamics reduction to make up for dynamic range problems when folks are in the car or want to listen at low volume. I put a Compellor in front to act as a leveler instead of the 8400 AGC. I believe the PD settled on a Hot-Bassy setting which is fairly hot. It is definitely a processed sound however it does not cause me listener fatigue after 10 minutes of listening. The 8400 does not "sparkle" as some of the newer DSP boxes do but the station does not have the budget to upgrade.

I would use outboard additional processing only to level balance and let the 8400 do it's thing.

Maybe you have to be in the altered "chronic" state that appears to be popular in the Netherlands to enjoy the grudge sound?

Proost.
 
For CHR? Use an Omnia 6, that do the job. This box can sound dirty. Z100 NYC using this unit, it's the perfect CHR machine. Forget the Optimod and buy yourself an Omnia.
 
Going straight to the topic: as a listener I consider the sound grungy/fatiguing and I'm not a girl ;D. The talent voices/production sound good, the music not @ all. I think you're spoiling the Orban with too much pre-processing, making it sound like a cheap broadband broadcast processor with the low freq smashing the remaining spectrum.
 
Your bass gets pinched when the mid band energy kicks up and that makes pumping unbearable. I could only listen for about 15 minutes. Also the "dirty" is extremely unfriendly on a good stereo system.

So I am going to agree with previous posters comments of fatiguing sound. I am an Omnia Fan but know the 8400 well and you should be able to get exactly what you want from it without losing the HOT Top 40/CHR sound you are looking for. Please take a listen to my Windows Media Player stream at http://68.35.91.153:8080 I think this might be closer to the sound you are looking for. If so I could send a preset for you to try.

Chris Williams
 
I'm not sure if the 8400 has the 'max distortion control' like the 8500

Many people complain about the 8400/8500 lacking sparkle and no punch. If you dial out some max distortion control, you get more loudness, open highs and a punchy bassline by letting the clippers handle more hard limiting. Its a trade off of course, but the factory presets are VERY conservative on the loudness/brightness trade off. Get a better understating of the gear your using, and it will do a better job of what you want.
 
hdradioeng said:
Your bass gets pinched when the mid band energy kicks up and that makes pumping unbearable. I could only listen for about 15 minutes. Also the "dirty" is extremely unfriendly on a good stereo system.

So I am going to agree with previous posters comments of fatiguing sound. I am an Omnia Fan but know the 8400 well and you should be able to get exactly what you want from it without losing the HOT Top 40/CHR sound you are looking for. Please take a listen to my Windows Media Player stream at http://68.35.91.153:8080 I think this might be closer to the sound you are looking for. If so I could send a preset for you to try.

Chris Williams
Click to expand...

Which processor is that on your stream?
 
It is Orbans PC1100 pc card. So basically a 6200 class DAB processor. The 8400 is more capable then this card so the "sound" should be easily achevied. I am working with an 8400 right now to develop a preset that will should be just as good on air.

What is the full airchain in Amsterdamn so I can try to mimic the entire chain?

CW
 
hdradioeng said:
What is the full airchain in Amsterdamn so I can try to mimic the entire chain?
Click to expand...
:eek: :D

To comment on the topic. The sound is generally how it is at the moment on the Dutch dial. I don't mind it and people do listen to the radio here. This might be a fun point in time. The topic starter could go ahead processing like this or take all suggestions into account and create a more "American" sound you all suggest. See what it does for his ratings. I'm certainly curious.
 
I'm from holland and listen to the station sometimes (like the music), but after 10 or 15 minutes i have to turn it off, saving myself a headache.. I have to agree with previous writers, the sound is way too smashed. It trows you from left to right all the time. Even listening the FM signal in the car, it's too much. In the Netherlands processing is always loud, but most of the times 'classy' and well controlled, respecting the original dynamics of the music. I miss that thing totally in the Wild FM sound. I always asked myself what the idea was behind that sound..

I think removing the Behringer stuff from the chain is a good start. Maybe put an analog AGC in front of the 8400 (i'm not a big fan of the Orban AGC's, i have an Aphex Compellor in front of my 1100, giving me a lot more headroom in the Orban). It sounds like the behringer stuff is doing some strange things in attack/releases, removing the natural 'flow' of the music totally.

When feeding the 8400 with a more natural sound, i think it's easily possible to beat the bass of an 8200 and get it sounding more 'hot' that it is now.

I've read somewhat about Omnia 6 boxes. They are not very popular in the Netherlands. I've struggled with it over a year on a dutch radio station, and it seems like the Omnia is not fitting in the dutch 'sound field'. Maybe in loudness it's a step forward (but i think an Orban can do that pretty good too), in sound it's not usable like the Orban's are used in Holland.

But, if you're having the budget.. a really nice combination would be the 8400, processing the sound natural, giving it a fat CHR bass, followed by and Omnia 3 FM, doing the highs and clipping.. Loud, clean and unique :)
 
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