I am Appalled!

[J C DITHERS]

Back when I was running things we never went over our 10 minute day spot load and 8 min at night. These 18 minute stop sets are just wrong!

We managed to make a nice profit but we didn't have to carry some failed station in another market a 1000 miles away.

I'm all for making a profit but not at the expense of diluting the product. When I became President/General Manager I came throught the ranks of broadcast programming-sales-management. Where are these managers coming from these days I ask you? Goddamn bean counters that's what they are today.

The radio landscape has changed and i'm afraid not for the good. You "youngins" could learn a thing or two from the Cranky Old Boss!!

And don't get me started on HD Radio. I'll address that mess next time.

Back to my sandwich....

 

[theshadow]

Back when I was running things we never went over our 10 minute day spot load and 8 min at night. These 18 minute stop sets are just wrong!

Yeah, I agree it's insane, and 105.3 leads the pack with that. Just listen to the spot sets after Stern or during Pugs and Kelly (if you can stand them). I was brought up in the wonderful working world of programming radio to know you live by the almighty TSL, and you try to get as much of that as possible. Some listener has to be out of their gourd to sit through 10 to 20 minutes of spots. I can't stand it with music stations, much less talk stations. Remember the good old days of 52 minute music sets?, when their actually was more MUSIC than spots?. Pretty much long gone. No wonder satellite radio and folks making their own CD's, MP3's, etc. , and listening to their Ipods and such are so popular. And radio programmers wonder what's happened. It's their own fault! They've driven listeners away!

But you are entirely correct on your thoughts on radio being run by the bean counters now. That's all it is. Serving the community went away a long time ago. Now it's how much more drops of water can you squeeze out of an already dry old dishrag.

 

[Robert Bass]

Consolidation of the industry was the beginning point of the mess commercial radio is in today. That’s why spot loads are longer. There’s no longer a reason to be competitive, since so many stations are owned by a single company.

I remember back in the day when KVIL used to run a spot load after every song. But IIRC they kept those breaks short. Looking back on that now, that was probably more ideal than 7 to 10 minutes of spots in a row.

I think the best way to handle spot loads is to keep them very short in duration. For example, a music station could play three songs, and follow it with three minutes of spots, max.

R

 

[KPLEXCOMPLEX]

In "the day" radio had "personalities" Few of those are on the air and I mean FEW. The rest are cheap warm bodies reading a liner written by some sales person,who never ever opened a mike on the air. The music is preselected by some company many miles away from the station( read hundreds).The station has no geographical flavor except the company's HQ,and only inside the HQ not the outside. Spots were sold around programming,now its programming around spots. There used to be "promotions" for a station giving away prizes like cars and trips. They still do,but instead there is a 1 800 number tied in with 75 other stations at one time across the country,instead of the individual station. The passion of radio has withered and is dying. Serving a local community is on life support. New announcers "breaking"in small markets is gone. Small market announcers coming to a major market and doing the overnight shift is one for the history books.

The excuses given for the above;" Times have changed","There is more variety now"."There are new mediums of competition, the internet, satellite radio,ipods,cd players" Times change,its unavoidable,but THE BASICS DON'T. If you disregard the basics, YOU FAIL.

 

[Eye]

What surprises me is that advertisers are willing to shell out $$$ to be the #7 spot in a break.
How many people are still listening after the 6th spot?
Wonder if the people meters will be able to tell clients how many ears are still there to hear their message late in the spot break. Probably a heck of a lot different number than the AQH.

Glad I was able to work in radio when owners really cared about the community and the quality of programming.

 

[davideduardo]

In "the day" radio had "personalities" Few of those are on the air and I mean FEW. The rest are cheap warm bodies reading a liner written by some sales person,who never ever opened a mike on the air. The music is preselected by some company many miles away from the station( read hundreds).The station has no geographical flavor except the company's HQ,and only inside the HQ not the outside. Spots were sold around programming,now its programming around spots. There used to be "promotions" for a station giving away prizes like cars and trips. They still do,but instead there is a 1 800 number tied in with 75 other stations at one time across the country,instead of the individual station. The passion of radio has withered and is dying. Serving a local community is on life support. New announcers "breaking"in small markets is gone. Small market announcers coming to a major market and doing the overnight shift is one for the history books.

Much of this is extreme exaggeration.

The reason why small town radio does not train people is not radio, but the FCC. Between Docket 80-90 and "Bonita Springs" which allowed upgrades and move-ins, most smaller towns have more statins than they can sustain, so they use satellite delivery for all but a few hours a day... at best. Getting away form Dallas, take Traverse City, MI. In 1965, it had two viable stations, both AM. Today, it has over 20, mostly FM. Yet it is still a market of a few tens of thousands!

As to music "selection" every significant station I know, especially in markets like Dallas (and even ones like El Paso or Austin or Corpus) does local testing of songs. So what if the company doing the test is from out of town? The respondents are local, the test is local and the results are implemented locally.

Sure, the fragmentation of audiences due to more stations has reduced personality on some... but it is because the soft AC listener, for example, does not want personality. Yet the CHRs, Urbans, Regional Mexicans and such are loaded with personality. Still, in some formats where in the 60's we had a "night rocker" young audiences today want to hear mixers who shiut up and present unique blends of their favorite songs.

So times have changed... some do not want to hear talk, others only want it in some moments of the day.

Nearly nobody is doing national contests (except a few syndicated shows), nor have they been doing them for several years. It was an idea that was tried, but did not work. It had ugly legal hassles and problems in coordination.

Finally, "local" means a station has local appeal, not necessarily local content. Delilah is local appeal all over the US because she talks about issues local people care about, no matter where they are. You do not have to report on the city council meeting to be local... you have to resonate with local listeners. Were "Cheers" and "Seinfeld" local? (I say they were... they had local appeal!)

 

[davideduardo]

What surprises me is that advertisers are willing to shell out $$$ to be the #7 spot in a break.
How many people are still listening after the 6th spot?

Nearly everyone. POM proves it amply.

Wonder if the people meters will be able to tell clients how many ears are still there to hear their message late in the spot break. Probably a heck of a lot different number than the AQH.

No, it is about the same. There is very little loss. Most people stick with thier favorite station, enven in the car (where only 30% of listening takes place) and don't hit buttons instantly.

Glad I was able to work in radio when owners really cared about the community and the quality of programming.

Many of them still do, just as in the past. In fact, I found more corner-cutting and weaseling in the 60's than today... all by smaller owners.

 

[beachguy3b]

I remember back in the day when KVIL used to run a spot load after every song. But IIRC they kept those breaks short. Looking back on that now, that was probably more ideal than 7 to 10 minutes of spots in a row.

In the old days, I recall almost everyplace I worked did the same- 2/3 songs (NEVER stop from :10-:20, :25-:35, :40-:45 or :55-:05 and a stop set- no more than 3 units, :90+promo max- and the promo was once an hour out of a stop set (which I always thought foolish, since you had run away the listeners, potentially, at that point. When I got back in da biz after a few years away, and discovered these ungodly long stop sets, I cringed.

Of course, those 3 unit, :90 max sets were long ago... "On the way, great new Eagles song in 60 seconds!" Somehow, that worked better than "One the way, great new Jessica Simpson song in 480 seconds!" (Okay, you'd never say "great" and "Jessica Simpson in the same sentence...)

 

[TheLaffer]

In "the day" radio had "personalities" Few of those are on the air and I mean FEW. The rest are cheap warm bodies reading a liner written by some sales person,who never ever opened a mike on the air. The music is preselected by some company many miles away from the station( read hundreds).The station has no geographical flavor except the company's HQ,and only inside the HQ not the outside. Spots were sold around programming,now its programming around spots. There used to be "promotions" for a station giving away prizes like cars and trips. They still do,but instead there is a 1 800 number tied in with 75 other stations at one time across the country,instead of the individual station. The passion of radio has withered and is dying. Serving a local community is on life support. New announcers "breaking"in small markets is gone. Small market announcers coming to a major market and doing the overnight shift is one for the history books.

The excuses given for the above;" Times have changed","There is more variety now"."There are new mediums of competition, the internet, satellite radio,ipods,cd players" Times change,its unavoidable,but THE BASICS DON'T. If you disregard the basics, YOU FAIL.

KLUV gave away a car and thousands in Ga$. It was not tied to a 1-800 number tied in with 75 other stations.

 

[Robert Bass]

Of course, those 3 unit, :90 max sets were long ago... "On the way, great new Eagles song in 60 seconds!" Somehow, that worked better than "One the way, great new Jessica Simpson song in 480 seconds!" (Okay, you'd never say "great" and "Jessica Simpson in the same sentence...)

I wouldn’t use the word “great” as a teaser for an upcoming artist or title period, then or now. That’s subjective to the listener’s feelings, and is more likely to drive away than retain. Better to keep ‘em guessing as to what is next.

R

 

[J C DITHERS]

In "the day" radio had "personalities" Few of those are on the air and I mean FEW. The rest are cheap warm bodies reading a liner written by some sales person,who never ever opened a mike on the air. The music is preselected by some company many miles away from the station( read hundreds).The station has no geographical flavor except the company's HQ,and only inside the HQ not the outside. Spots were sold around programming,now its programming around spots. There used to be "promotions" for a station giving away prizes like cars and trips. They still do,but instead there is a 1 800 number tied in with 75 other stations at one time across the country,instead of the individual station. The passion of radio has withered and is dying. Serving a local community is on life support. New announcers "breaking"in small markets is gone. Small market announcers coming to a major market and doing the overnight shift is one for the history books.

The excuses given for the above;" Times have changed","There is more variety now"."There are new mediums of competition, the internet, satellite radio,ipods,cd players" Times change,its unavoidable,but THE BASICS DON'T. If you disregard the basics, YOU FAIL.

KPLEXCOMPLEX QUOTE: Spots were sold around programming,now its programming around spots. There used to be "promotions" for a station giving away prizes like cars and trips. They still do,but instead there is a 1 800 number tied in with 75 other stations at one time across the country,instead of the individual station. The passion of radio has withered and is dying. Serving a local community is on life support. New announcers "breaking"in small markets is gone. Small market announcers coming to a major market and doing the overnight shift is one for the history books.

KPLEXCOMPLEX QUOTE: Don't bother with him. It's our resident antagionist with a new nic. He changes every 5 and a half months.


Heavens to Betsy young man, you have just basically shared my feelings about today’s industry. I admit I’m a cranky old man. But for you to exclaim I’m the “resident antagonists” after what you posted I find preposterous.

Lastly Young Man, the correct spelling is: ANTAGONISTS. Did you not pay attention in Grammar School?

To set you straight, this is my first visit to Radio-Info but it won’t be my last as I find it invigorating to show you “youngins” how damn silly and hypocritical you can be.


Excuse me now while I make another splendid Dagwood sandwich.

 

[TexasTom]

I remember back in the day when KVIL used to run a spot load after every song. But IIRC they kept those breaks short. Looking back on that now, that was probably more ideal than 7 to 10 minutes of spots in a row.

In the mid-eighties, I believe that KVIL followed a maximum of 2 minutes per break. But they had 7 breaks in an hour, which meant up to 14 minutes of commercials. Interestingly, they beat out stations that had lower commercial loads and fewer breaks.

 

[copydesk2]

Mr. Dithers, is it true that you and Blondie have something going on the side?

 

[theshadow]

In the mid-eighties, I believe that KVIL followed a maximum of 2 minutes per break. But they had 7 breaks in an hour, which meant up to 14 minutes of commercials. Interestingly, they beat out stations that had lower commercial loads and fewer breaks.

That I could actually agree to...within reason of course. Spots spaced out is not that big of a problem. It's when there are 15 spots IN A ROW then that's insane!.The programming element of a station is the product that you're selling to the listener. It shouldn't be the other way around (as stated in previous posts) where the music or programming is wrapped around the "spot". That's utterly ridiculous. If that is what some goofball sales manager at a station wants, then they need to go all commercials 24/7, and watch listeners running away in droves. I mean honestly, do you (not just TexasTom but everyone on RadioInfo) watch 3 or 4 hours of Carlton Sheets selling his money making crap on TV every Sunday morning? If you do, you need to be in the nuthouse!.

Eduardo's comments about folks sticking around through minutes and minutes of spots I find very difficult to believe, and would like to see that data (send us a link or something). I find it difficult to believe any listener would hardly remember what the talk show host's topic was after a 15 minute spot break. As far as music stations, I think the only ones that wouldn't tune out might be office or factory workers, that just don't want to take the time to change the station. Get a survey from those folks and of course, they're going to say they listen always to so and so station. Why? Because someone at the office NEVER changes it!. If you're in the middle of piecing together a car or computer on an assembly line, you think they're gonna' shut down the line so they can change radio stations? Hell no!.

 

[little1]

I don't have a link handy, but I've seen a number of those studies that all report that somewhere in the 60-75% range of listening is at home/work/whatever...Which leaves the 25-40% for in-car listening...
So while yeah, that 30-40% can EASILy change stations, the majority don't have it as easy...

So if I'm working in my garage, chances are I'm going to leave the station on rather than walk over and start twisting the knob on the top of the boombox to try and find one of the few other stations I like, and see if one of those stations actually has a song I like playing...

(And I'm going on the assumption that most stations that run the standard 5-6-7 minute breaks...Most people will probably sit through that...and the 15 minute breaks are the exception rather than the rule...)

 

[theshadow]

(And I'm going on the assumption that most stations that run the standard 5-6-7 minute breaks...Most people will probably sit through that

Maybe...but are those people actually paying attention to the spots as advertisers hope they will? Probably not.

In my opinion, I think two or three well produced spots maximum in a row hit the listener harder for buying effect than a slew of ten spots in a row where the business (and spot) just gets lost in the "pile on" or "shuffle". Try this sometime. Watch three commercials on TV. After the third has ended, see if you can remember the first commercial and who the advertiser was. More than likely you can. Then do this....watch or listen to a program that runs a ton of commercials in a row (Pugs and Kelly comes to mind). After completion of the 10th or 15th commercial that you've heard, try to remember the very FIRST commercial, and who the advertiser was. If anyone can do that, they seriously need to win an award.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't have a link handy, but I've seen a number of those studies that all report that somewhere in the 60-75% range of listening is at home/work/whatever...Which leaves the 25-40% for in-car listening...

Actually, the data comes from Arbitron and the "Place of Listening" in each diary for each entry.

The lowest is New York, with around 24% to 25% of listening in cars, and the higest is the 30% to 31% in most sunbelt markets, ranging from Miami to LA.

The national average is 70% of all listening taking place at home or at work.

So while yeah, that 30-40% can EASILy change stations, the majority don't have it as easy...

When you look at diaries or analyze PPM data, you see that even in cars, people don't change stations for the commercials. As many change due to what may be a bad song or a long news item thay don't care about.

[quote(And I'm going on the assumption that most stations that run the standard 5-6-7 minute breaks...Most people will probably sit through that...and the 15 minute breaks are the exception rather than the rule...)
[/quote]

Except for Howard stern, I have never heard a 15 minute stopset since the 50's and 60's when running more spots was so prevalent the FCC set aside for review license renwal applications where more than 18 minutes of spots an hour were consistently run.

 

[davideduardo]

Eduardo's comments about folks sticking around through minutes and minutes of spots I find very difficult to believe, and would like to see that data (send us a link or something).

It's in the Edison sytudy of PPM data release a few weeks ago, and in the PPM data itself for every person/station árticipating in the Philly and Houston PPM tests. All you have to do is match stop times with the minute by minute data, and you have it.

I find it difficult to believe any listener would hardly remember what the talk show host's topic was after a 15 minute spot break.

As I posted elsewhere, I have not heard breaks that long in 40 years, and certainly not in metro areas (except Stern, who I did not listen to but who was reported to run multiple stopsets back to back when he did not cut for spots).

As far as music stations, I think the only ones that wouldn't tune out might be office or factory workers, that just don't want to take the time to change the station. Get a survey from those folks and of course, they're going to say they listen always to so and so station. Why? Because someone at the office NEVER changes it!. If you're in the middle of piecing together a car or computer on an assembly line, you think they're gonna' shut down the line so they can change radio stations? Hell no!.

That is part of it, but much has to do with not wanting to change the station, even if there are many spots... if you are listening to your favorite morning show, you just grin and bear it.

 

[grantchester]

Hey DC!

Hey Mr. Dithers! welcome to the board!
The antagonist Klifhanger was referring to wasn't you, it was the other Dave, the vice president of programming for Hispanic/Univision Radio. I'm with you on the spot load. I am of the opinion the programmers have trained the listener to hit the button when a commercial comes on, cause they know it'll be more than 5 minutes until they get back to music.
I'll never forget the time the sales manager at one station I worked at convinced the GM to let him add another 2:00 to each hour of morning drive. The scary thing was, when the ratings came out, they were up!
Well produced commericals can be part of a station's appeal. Bad commericals, yelling, ultra-repetition, gross subjects and just lame spots are a definate tune-out.

>BTW, Y'all, if Dithers is who I think he is, most of us are not worthy to carry his mic cable. He's been to the big-leagues and won there. He has worked at some of the top stations on the west coast, and was a top consultant before top consultants stopped getting business.
g

 

[J C DITHERS]

Re: Hey DC!

Hey Mr. Dithers! welcome to the board!
The antagonist Klifhanger was referring to wasn't you, it was the other Dave, the vice president of programming for Hispanic/Univision Radio. I'm with you on the spot load. I am of the opinion the programmers have trained the listener to hit the button when a commercial comes on, cause they know it'll be more than 5 minutes until they get back to music.
I'll never forget the time the sales manager at one station I worked at convinced the GM to let him add another 2:00 to each hour of morning drive. The scary thing was, when the ratings came out, they were up!
Well produced commericals can be part of a station's appeal. Bad commericals, yelling, ultra-repetition, gross subjects and just lame spots are a definate tune-out.

>BTW, Y'all, if Dithers is who I think he is, most of us are not worthy to carry his mic cable. He's been to the big-leagues and won there. He has worked at some of the top stations on the west coast, and was a top consultant before top consultants stopped getting business.
g

Young Man: You are correct in your assumption. I was a top programmer for years before going into management.

Back in 1985 my last year as a programmer/consultant I hired Jerry Clifton. One of Jerry's ideas and if memory serves me correctly Jerry was the first to execute this on air. Jerry wanted to play two stop sets per hour. At the time our spot load was 14 minutes. He told me his research revealed listeners would rather have two long stop sets as apposed to 3 or 4 stop sets with fewer spots in each cluster. I went with the idea. Initially our ratings doubled but as I have witnessed long term I prefer the 4 spots, 3 times per hour format. Of course today I hear up to 20 minutes on some stations. That's not acceptable.

As a programmer and manager at RKO I worked on the History of Rock and Roll with Bill Drake. If I’m not mistaken I recall the show was designed for 8 units per hour. Can you imagine running that program today? You would have a difficult time with time.

Yes youngins it's a different industry from the one I left 5 years ago. Now, I really must go. It's getting late and Mrs. Dithers has my warm glass of milk and another splendid Dagwood sandwich ready. Goodnight to all.