I remember listening to WCAU-FM with the automated tapes with a great playlist.Cut my teeth listening to these tapes and sent me out looking for these tunes.Now if I listen to WOGL,I can hear the only the top 2-3 cuts of any group.It beats me that deeper cuts are played on this station by Elvis,Beatles,Stones,& Beach Boys but not by other artists.4 Tops have a deeper catalog besides"I Can't Help Myself" or "My Girl" by the Temps.As the years go on,the audience grows older who grew up with this music.Radio forgets about the +50 crowd as what happened to our parents music.Radio just spits out it's older listenship because you just turned 50.I would be happy to listen to the automated tapes again,just because the playlist was deeper.Don't listen to radio much anymore,because of the same tired songs.Can find what I want on internet radio,That's where free radio chased me to listen for the music I like.
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I was glad to see this thread revived this morning. But a couple of caveats:
First, I'm afraid I don't share Diamond Jim Nettleton's optimism over NBC News, much less Radio Ink, having recently done pieces on how advertisers are suddenly seeing the potentialities of older demos. On September 30, I started a thread on the “50's/60's Oldies” board under the title, “This is not your father's 50-something,” and included a link to an NPR story, “Silver-Haired Characters Slowly Re-Emerge on TV,” about how TV is finally seeing the value in viewers a little older than its usual targets
The reactions from some industry apologists were anything but encouraging. These guys are walking fonts of corporate radio’s “conventional wisdom,” and they obviously take umbrage whenever anyone tries to “confuse” them with the facts!
Besides, Jacobs Media and Edison Research have covered this, too, and their efforts seem to have absolutely no effect on the suits’ “thinking,” if we can call it that.
Second, Jim also pointed out that he “inherited...a [very large play] list that the station had already been successful with for 2 years of strictly automated broadcasting” when he took over at ’CAU-FM in 1972. This should give pause to anyone who thinks live personalities are essential to success (especially for a format that has no live competition), as should the brief (two-book) success of “Jammin’ Gold.”
(I still have the Arbitron “rolling monthly” AQH charts -- both 12+ and 25-54 -- for Winter '99 -- just before the May flip to “Jammin’” in the middle of the Spring book -- through 2001. And the trajectories for both WOGL and WEJM, on both 12+ and 25-54, were almost identical, if you graph them with the vertical scales adjusted; that is, the percent of rise and fall was the same for the 25-54 demo and the 12+. But the really remarkable thing was that “Jammin’” started to lose ground as soon as it added live talent! Go figure!)
The only disadvantage to those early ’CAU-FM reels was that they were reused often enough that, after a few weeks of listening, you just knew what record was coming up next! It was kind of like playing an “Oldies but Goodies” anthology album on your own turntable. But on the positive side, there was much more variety than you'd have in your personal collection, unless you were a fanatical collector.
If anything, WCAU-FM had even more variety within its 1949-70 or 71 period (of its early, automated days) than a typical “Jack-“ or “Bob-FM” station today, and those stations have been phenomenally successful in some markets without jocks. I think if the modern automation used in those were to be used with a revived WCAU-FM play list -- augmented by "cherry-picking" those Seventies sides that would fit in well (and even a VERY few Eighties and newer), and with somebody as good as Jim Nettleton doing the automated backsells (something I think is essential for an Oldies station), it would blow WOGL out of the water, and would also do very well (with local fine tuning) in New York, Chicago and any other market with a real Oldies heritage.
Finally, I think the real reason CBS flipped WCAU-FM to disco in 1976 was because the top corporate suits, those above the radio division, wanted a format that would promote the then-current “product” of the CBS Records Division and its Custom Record Pressing (CRP) Service – a factor I cited in Reply No. 24 as the probable explanation for all those “Future Gold” additions by the mid-Seventies. That's probably also why they flipped to Top40/CHR as “Hot Hits 98” in 1981, after the disco nova had burned itself out. Note, too, that when they finally went back to Oldies in 1989 as WOGL, it was about the same time that they were selling their record business to Sony!
First, I'm afraid I don't share Diamond Jim Nettleton's optimism over NBC News, much less Radio Ink, having recently done pieces on how advertisers are suddenly seeing the potentialities of older demos. On September 30, I started a thread on the “50's/60's Oldies” board under the title, “This is not your father's 50-something,” and included a link to an NPR story, “Silver-Haired Characters Slowly Re-Emerge on TV,” about how TV is finally seeing the value in viewers a little older than its usual targets
The reactions from some industry apologists were anything but encouraging. These guys are walking fonts of corporate radio’s “conventional wisdom,” and they obviously take umbrage whenever anyone tries to “confuse” them with the facts!
Besides, Jacobs Media and Edison Research have covered this, too, and their efforts seem to have absolutely no effect on the suits’ “thinking,” if we can call it that.
Second, Jim also pointed out that he “inherited...a [very large play] list that the station had already been successful with for 2 years of strictly automated broadcasting” when he took over at ’CAU-FM in 1972. This should give pause to anyone who thinks live personalities are essential to success (especially for a format that has no live competition), as should the brief (two-book) success of “Jammin’ Gold.”
(I still have the Arbitron “rolling monthly” AQH charts -- both 12+ and 25-54 -- for Winter '99 -- just before the May flip to “Jammin’” in the middle of the Spring book -- through 2001. And the trajectories for both WOGL and WEJM, on both 12+ and 25-54, were almost identical, if you graph them with the vertical scales adjusted; that is, the percent of rise and fall was the same for the 25-54 demo and the 12+. But the really remarkable thing was that “Jammin’” started to lose ground as soon as it added live talent! Go figure!)
The only disadvantage to those early ’CAU-FM reels was that they were reused often enough that, after a few weeks of listening, you just knew what record was coming up next! It was kind of like playing an “Oldies but Goodies” anthology album on your own turntable. But on the positive side, there was much more variety than you'd have in your personal collection, unless you were a fanatical collector.
If anything, WCAU-FM had even more variety within its 1949-70 or 71 period (of its early, automated days) than a typical “Jack-“ or “Bob-FM” station today, and those stations have been phenomenally successful in some markets without jocks. I think if the modern automation used in those were to be used with a revived WCAU-FM play list -- augmented by "cherry-picking" those Seventies sides that would fit in well (and even a VERY few Eighties and newer), and with somebody as good as Jim Nettleton doing the automated backsells (something I think is essential for an Oldies station), it would blow WOGL out of the water, and would also do very well (with local fine tuning) in New York, Chicago and any other market with a real Oldies heritage.
Finally, I think the real reason CBS flipped WCAU-FM to disco in 1976 was because the top corporate suits, those above the radio division, wanted a format that would promote the then-current “product” of the CBS Records Division and its Custom Record Pressing (CRP) Service – a factor I cited in Reply No. 24 as the probable explanation for all those “Future Gold” additions by the mid-Seventies. That's probably also why they flipped to Top40/CHR as “Hot Hits 98” in 1981, after the disco nova had burned itself out. Note, too, that when they finally went back to Oldies in 1989 as WOGL, it was about the same time that they were selling their record business to Sony!
C
crmc
Guest
First a timeline clarification: it was 1987 when WOGL came on.Otherwise, much of what you write I find intelligent opinion, but it's just that, opinion. The old Solid Gold WCAU -FM was great. But it was not a mainstream , top rated market format. It was a niche .Now here's my opinion: To be a mainstream, market-leading station, not a niche, you gotta play the hits.And the hits that the research says that station's audience wants. That's one of the reason's why many programmers and managers come and go, and have so many short stops on their long journey thru the business. They have talent and a great ear, but they think they know what the consumer wants. They know more than or do not need, the research.They create great sounding radio stations up and down the dial, but stop short of finding out what the people who keep them in business really want.And the insiders complain about the narrow playlists , format to format, town to town, year to year.
All consumer products that endure the test of time invest in finding out what their consumers want...and then strive to deliver it.The radio folk who get this simple (though not so simple to implement) philosophy have longer runs of success than those who don't.
All consumer products that endure the test of time invest in finding out what their consumers want...and then strive to deliver it.The radio folk who get this simple (though not so simple to implement) philosophy have longer runs of success than those who don't.
Well, cmrc, you can call it a niche format if you like, but consider two factors:
(1) WCAU-FM was a major "at work" station in 1974 and early 1975. Why? Because with records going back to 1954, and a few from 1949-53, and coming up to "currents" at the other end of the spectrum, it had something for everybody (and if the currents had been held within reasonable bounds, they would have been a net plus, instead of a factor making the station vulnerable to the all-pre-British Invasion WPEN of 1975). Unless the workplace was dominated by over 50's, or perhaps over-55's, who probably preferred the "beautiful music" format of WDVR, "Oldies 98" was the station of choice for workplace listening as the "LPO" -- least objectionable programming. In fact, if not for WDVR's popularity with older bosses -- and with some kinds of businesses that didn't think "Oldies" were appropriate for their image -- WCAU-FM probably would have been as dominant in at-work listening as WDVR's AC successor, B-101, is today.
(2) FM was still lagging behind in auto penetration in those days, as I've already pointed out in Reply No. 24 on this thread. So why was that so important? Because then, as now, drive time was, and is, to radio what "prime time" is to TV. Obviously, the inability of so many listeners to hear 98.1 on the road suppressed the station's cume, TSL and (full-week) AQH share alike, making it seem like a niche format when in fact, it had tremendous mainstraem appeal.
And as for the Holy Grail of "research" (which I've already likened to astrology as a pseudo-science), consider the drop in radio listening over the past few years since consolidation. In that connection, I suggest you go to http://www.futureofmusic.org/research/radiostudy06.cfm and read the study, "False Premises, False Promise: A Quantitative History of Ownership Consolidation in the Radio Industry."
It's a real eye-opener!
(1) WCAU-FM was a major "at work" station in 1974 and early 1975. Why? Because with records going back to 1954, and a few from 1949-53, and coming up to "currents" at the other end of the spectrum, it had something for everybody (and if the currents had been held within reasonable bounds, they would have been a net plus, instead of a factor making the station vulnerable to the all-pre-British Invasion WPEN of 1975). Unless the workplace was dominated by over 50's, or perhaps over-55's, who probably preferred the "beautiful music" format of WDVR, "Oldies 98" was the station of choice for workplace listening as the "LPO" -- least objectionable programming. In fact, if not for WDVR's popularity with older bosses -- and with some kinds of businesses that didn't think "Oldies" were appropriate for their image -- WCAU-FM probably would have been as dominant in at-work listening as WDVR's AC successor, B-101, is today.
(2) FM was still lagging behind in auto penetration in those days, as I've already pointed out in Reply No. 24 on this thread. So why was that so important? Because then, as now, drive time was, and is, to radio what "prime time" is to TV. Obviously, the inability of so many listeners to hear 98.1 on the road suppressed the station's cume, TSL and (full-week) AQH share alike, making it seem like a niche format when in fact, it had tremendous mainstraem appeal.
And as for the Holy Grail of "research" (which I've already likened to astrology as a pseudo-science), consider the drop in radio listening over the past few years since consolidation. In that connection, I suggest you go to http://www.futureofmusic.org/research/radiostudy06.cfm and read the study, "False Premises, False Promise: A Quantitative History of Ownership Consolidation in the Radio Industry."
It's a real eye-opener!
C
crmc
Guest
I did click thru and read it. I agree with most observations on deregulation and add that it has been tough on a lot of the people in the business. But the website you recommend looks like it's a PR piece for the recording industry.But I didn't stay long enough to know.
When I say niche I go back to depth.One place with lots of depth makes it more niche. Less depth , more mainstream, in my opinion. Satisfying people with extensive knowledge of a particular format is difficult if you keep the station focused on what the core listeners want. I have had this same debate in Classic Rock, Oldies, Alternative , Smooth Jazz, etc over my years in the business. I love the passion.I hoped the internet would satisfy lots of these thirsts for depth.I never expected that of HD multicasts, I simply see that as the new FM frontier. 1970 revisited.
And I understand about bad research experiences. But over my years, I have personally participated in over 50 extensive( and expensive) projects. Yes some have been flawed.But more often than not, when it is screened extensively,( often the most costly part,perhaps 10,000 phone calls to get 125 qualified participants,) and the right questions are asked, and if it's a music test , a good variety of appropriate music included, and with an insightful interpretation and action plan,and...with a successful implementation, I've witnessed ratings go up. Sometimes to record highs, sometimes just a bit, some times for the long haul.
That's why I am willing to debate this time and again. I've witnessed the cross section of listeners like the hits, usually not the depth or secondary songs, and go up in ratings as a result.
And as to listening levels: 93 % of the population listens weekly. It's still a very viable medium and a great business.Despite the unprecedented competition in choices on how the consumers spend their media time.
When I say niche I go back to depth.One place with lots of depth makes it more niche. Less depth , more mainstream, in my opinion. Satisfying people with extensive knowledge of a particular format is difficult if you keep the station focused on what the core listeners want. I have had this same debate in Classic Rock, Oldies, Alternative , Smooth Jazz, etc over my years in the business. I love the passion.I hoped the internet would satisfy lots of these thirsts for depth.I never expected that of HD multicasts, I simply see that as the new FM frontier. 1970 revisited.
And I understand about bad research experiences. But over my years, I have personally participated in over 50 extensive( and expensive) projects. Yes some have been flawed.But more often than not, when it is screened extensively,( often the most costly part,perhaps 10,000 phone calls to get 125 qualified participants,) and the right questions are asked, and if it's a music test , a good variety of appropriate music included, and with an insightful interpretation and action plan,and...with a successful implementation, I've witnessed ratings go up. Sometimes to record highs, sometimes just a bit, some times for the long haul.
That's why I am willing to debate this time and again. I've witnessed the cross section of listeners like the hits, usually not the depth or secondary songs, and go up in ratings as a result.
And as to listening levels: 93 % of the population listens weekly. It's still a very viable medium and a great business.Despite the unprecedented competition in choices on how the consumers spend their media time.
“When I say niche, I go back to depth. One place with lots of depth makes it more niche. Less depth , more mainstream, in my opinion.,” says crmc.
I’m glad you qualified that as your opinion. I think the popularity of the Adult Hits “Bob-“ and “Jack-FM” stations in some markets proves that depth doesn’t necessarily preclude broad appeal, as did the limited success of “Solid Gold” WCAU-FM in the early-to-mid-Seventies. And that latter success was, as I’ve already pointed out, limited primarily be the limited reach of FM, particularly in cars, in those days.
You also said that “93 % of the population listens [to radio] weekly.”
Well, I listen to radio every day – but NOT commercial radio. And I don’t think I’m unusual.
The only commercial radio I ever listen to is, sometimes, Harvey Holiday’s Street Corner Sunday -- and perhaps I’ll make a brief stop at KYW just for “traffic on the two’s” or weather.
The commercial FM band (above 92) is, by and large, a far worse “vast wasteland” than the television of the early Sixties that inspired Newton Minnow to coin that phrase. And that goes double for AM.
Incidentally, I don’t think you can dismiss “False Premises, False Promises” as “a PR piece for the recording industry.” Most of the “alternative” pop musicians and their fans who are the Future of Music Coalition’s base of support have as little use for the mainstream record industry as for corporate radio.
I’m glad you qualified that as your opinion. I think the popularity of the Adult Hits “Bob-“ and “Jack-FM” stations in some markets proves that depth doesn’t necessarily preclude broad appeal, as did the limited success of “Solid Gold” WCAU-FM in the early-to-mid-Seventies. And that latter success was, as I’ve already pointed out, limited primarily be the limited reach of FM, particularly in cars, in those days.
You also said that “93 % of the population listens [to radio] weekly.”
Well, I listen to radio every day – but NOT commercial radio. And I don’t think I’m unusual.
The only commercial radio I ever listen to is, sometimes, Harvey Holiday’s Street Corner Sunday -- and perhaps I’ll make a brief stop at KYW just for “traffic on the two’s” or weather.
The commercial FM band (above 92) is, by and large, a far worse “vast wasteland” than the television of the early Sixties that inspired Newton Minnow to coin that phrase. And that goes double for AM.
Incidentally, I don’t think you can dismiss “False Premises, False Promises” as “a PR piece for the recording industry.” Most of the “alternative” pop musicians and their fans who are the Future of Music Coalition’s base of support have as little use for the mainstream record industry as for corporate radio.
C
crmc
Guest
Again, you and I agree more than disagree. One point I can add to this thread is that the successful variety formats( Jack, ben, Bob, Dave, etc)all spend big dollars on research. It adds science to the art. The most successful jack stations do more music testing than most formats. That's how they keep their " inch deep/mile wide" sounding fresh!!
Test the right songs, implement porperly, win in ratings.It works.
Test the right songs, implement porperly, win in ratings.It works.
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