I feel like I've asked this before but...

[bobdavcav]

I can't seem to find that thread. Why do so many stations block out the entire commercial break on their streams if most of the spots are local anyway? Granted, it seems like we're seeing less and less of that lately.

 

[Kelly A]

For a couple main reasons:

1. Music used in the spot is paid for use only in the market the station serves (and pays for the music/needle drops).
2. Voice talent is typically paid a per-run fee inside the market only. AFTRA represented voice talent are paid for each market and number of times the spot airs. If the spot runs outside the intended market, the originating station would have to pay the talent for each area outside the intended market.

 

[b-turner]

It would seem to me that AFTRA could create a certain fee scale add on for stations desiring to air their spots online. Indeed the world has changed and I wonder why AFTRA hasn't worked to create an affordable formula to make this happen. I realize their stance is one of value but a token add on, considering the costs of stations streaming being unprofitable, would allow members to earn a bit more for the same work. Anyway, the agencies and stations that use AFTRA talent would benefit and might allow for increased rates down the road.

I realize, as well, production music companies that license make exclusive deals might find online use contrary to the contract, yet this thinking is counterproductive.

Perhaps all parties need to step back and look at how they can bring greater value to the entity that utilizes AFTRA talent. Certainly the agencies, businesses, radio stations and even the talent can all benefit by working for the benefit of the entity that hired them in the first place. I have always thought having to eliminate stop sets from the online stream was small minded thinking. Why not let everyone benefit?

 

[TheBigA]

It would seem to me that AFTRA could create a certain fee scale add on for stations desiring to air their spots online.

Sure they could, but they instead decided it was in their best interest to side with the RIAA in this matter. So they're making it as difficult and as costly as they possibly can.

 

[davideduardo]

Perhaps all parties need to step back and look at how they can bring greater value to the entity that utilizes AFTRA talent. Certainly the agencies, businesses, radio stations and even the talent can all benefit by working for the benefit of the entity that hired them in the first place. I have always thought having to eliminate stop sets from the online stream was small minded thinking. Why not let everyone benefit?

AFTRA seems never to have understood that for radio to endure, it has to move into new distribution platforms.

Instead of cultivating a lucrative source of revenue for AFTRA members, they have severely damaged radio and hurt the future income of their members.

The industry, starting with the NAB, has done a deficient job in recognizing this as a major impediment for the survival of radio and taking steps to join the AFTRA negotiations as an interested and affected party. At present, the negotiations are with the Agencies, not the radio industry.

 

[davideduardo]

I can't seem to find that thread. Why do so many stations block out the entire commercial break on their streams if most of the spots are local anyway? Granted, it seems like we're seeing less and less of that lately.

If any spots have AFTRA talent, the agency that placed the buy likely issued it with a "no streaming" dictate. Agencies do not want to pay a lot extra for often minimal added exposure, much of which may not be in the target market of the buy.

 

[bobdavcav]

Ok, but isn't thata small number of spots? Here's a sample break from a local station,
Allstate not sure if this is Aftraa or not.
Fred Meyer not sure but likely not.
Shane Company not sure what their demands are but it doesn't seem like they would be dictating no stream.
SeaTac Airport highly doubtful.
Key Bank doubtful, sounded like a local voice.
Events and Adventures, local voice heard often on this station.
Mission Impossible not sure.
Tripple A likely not.
Albertsons, likely not.
Masies probably one of the few that would have a no streaming dictate.
Last but not least, Carter Suberu, voiced by one of the production guys at the cluster.
This is an iHeart station which I have heard some local spots on streams from other markets, but if this were another company like Mapleton, Cumulus, or likely even Townsquare, the entire break would have been blocked out for possibly 3 spots out of how many did I list? 10? As I mentioned originally, it does seem like we're seeing a lot less of this though, with Cox and Hubbard among the companies running everything these days.

 

[Kelly A]

Ok, but isn't thata small number of spots? Here's a sample break from a local station,

Fred Meyer not sure but likely not.
[/QUOTE]


Fred Meyer is a division of Kroeger(sp) Department Stores. Their ads are agency ads with AFTRA talent. I can't recall what their voice talent's name is though. It's been a while.

Shane Company not sure what their demands are but it doesn't seem like they would be dictating no stream.

Shane Co. has stores in several different markets including Oregon and Colorado. I believe I heard once that Tom Shane is actually an AFTRA member.

SeaTac Airport highly doubtful.

I'm pretty sure the agency that the airport uses for their spots are using AFTRA-represented talent.

Key Bank doubtful, sounded like a local voice.

Doesn't matter whether it's a local voice or not. Many moons ago I voiced several spots used regionally, including Tree Top and Washington State Ferries. I had to be an AFTRA member to even audition.
Events and Adventures, local voice heard often on this station.

Mission Impossible not sure.

For the nationwide movie release?? Definitely AFTRA

Tripple A likely not.

AAA is a national brand, chances are going being national, they use union voice talent.

Albertsons, likely not.

I believe Albertson's is also owned by Kroeger. See #2

Masies probably one of the few that would have a no streaming dictate.

You got that one right anyway, but the spelling is Macy's.

Last but not least, Carter Suberu, voiced by one of the production guys at the cluster.

Who probably is an AFTRA member for voicing spots independently of his station responsibilities.

This is an iHeart station which I have heard some local spots on streams from other markets, but if this were another company like Mapleton, Cumulus, or likely even Townsquare, the entire break would have been blocked out for possibly 3 spots out of how many did I list? 10? As I mentioned originally, it does seem like we're seeing a lot less of this though, with Cox and Hubbard among the companies running everything these days.

Don't forget the RIAA too. The originating station or agency is paying for each time and wherever the music is being used in a spot. This isn't just an AFTRA limitation.

 

[TheBigA]

Don't forget the RIAA too. The originating station or agency is paying for each time and wherever the music is being used in a spot. This isn't just an AFTRA limitation.

Production music is usually covered for spots. Any good license will cover all platforms.

 

[Kelly A]

Production music is usually covered for spots. Any good license will cover all platforms.

For spots that run out of market via streaming? That's news to me, unless a station or agency cuts a licensing deal in advance.

 

[TheBigA]

For spots that run out of market via streaming? That's news to me, unless a station or agency cuts a licensing deal in advance.

It depends on the production library. Don't you know what the rights are before you use the music? Seems to me that's part of creating the budget.

 

[Kelly A]

It depends on the production library. Don't you know what the rights are before you use the music? Seems to me that's part of creating the budget.

Its a safe assumption one would, but music used for domestic use may not be covered for international. I run into that frequently with music providers. Unless you 'geofence', there is no way to guarantee someone overseas isn't streaming a spot. (Going back to the original premise that a station will carry the same spots OTA and stream.

 

[davideduardo]

Ok, but isn't thata small number of spots? Here's a sample break from a local station,

If a spot is placed by an agency and runs on multiple stations, it is a near certainty that AFTRA talent was used.

If an account is managed by an agency, and they run different spots in different markets, it is still likely the talent is AFTRA.

Almost every client on you list, as Kelly has detailed, is an agency account.

Additionally, some companies with strong union agreements have clauses that require them to prefer union labor for suppliers.

 

[davideduardo]

For spots that run out of market via streaming? That's news to me, unless a station or agency cuts a licensing deal in advance.

Most production music libraries are buyouts. They are vague on streaming, but many libraries were bought before streaming became a factor.

 

[gr8oldies]

Kroger is primarily a grocery chain that owns other grocery chains and convenience stores. (Albertson's, Frye's, Loaf and Jug, etc.). In Cincinnati, where Kroger is headquartered, WLW has been the voice of Kroger since the 80s, both on-air and in-store (I don't know if that's still the case since he retired). I don't know if Jim is or is not an AFTRA member, but I'm thinking WLW is not an AFTRA station. I live in East Tennessee now, and it's a different voice on their radio, TV and in-store ads.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't know if Jim is or is not an AFTRA member, but I'm thinking WLW is not an AFTRA station.

Remember, the radio station is just a bystander here. It does not matter if a station's staff is covered by AFTRA. What matters is whether the Agency used AFTRA talent and is a part to AFTRA usage terms. That's why so many broadcast orders have a no streaming mandate, with the objective of preventing the agency from liability for Internet usage not part of the fee charged by the voice talent.

 

[TheBigA]

The industry, starting with the NAB, has done a deficient job in recognizing this as a major impediment for the survival of radio and taking steps to join the AFTRA negotiations as an interested and affected party. At present, the negotiations are with the Agencies, not the radio industry.

The other side of that is their members feel that imposing a federal performance right would kill broadcast radio by costing the industry an estimated 10 billion dollars a year. So the NAB and the radio industry remain opposed to negotiating with AFTRA as long as that is a pre-condition.

 

[davideduardo]

The other side of that is their members feel that imposing a federal performance right would kill broadcast radio by costing the industry an estimated 10 billion dollars a year. So the NAB and the radio industry remain opposed to negotiating with AFTRA as long as that is a pre-condition.

But the radio industry does not have to negotiate with AFTRA, as the "deal" is with the voice over recording studios and agencies who record with AFTRA talent.

Radio can ask for some type of "friend of the court" status to make known that AFTRA is cutting off its nose to spite its face in the question of talent fees for streaming simulcasts. If terrestrial radio is pushed into decline, the folks who will dominate streaming are not going to be using AfTRA talent.

 

[TheBigA]

Radio can ask for some type of "friend of the court" status

It's not in the courts, so that's not exactly what it would be. Everyone know where everyone stands, so radio doesn't have to make a scene. It's an issue that's gotten nowhere in Congress. It's a big mistake that AFTRA has made, and radio stations DO have to negotiate with AFTRA on other more direct substantive matters, so they've apparently concluded that it's not worth it right now.

 

[davideduardo]

It's not in the courts, so that's not exactly what it would be.

That's why I put the expression in quotes. At some point in the talks that go on between the agencies and AFTRA, radio needs to make its position known.

Everyone know where everyone stands, so radio doesn't have to make a scene.

AFTRA does not understand how much the separate fees for the same programming on different platforms hurts radio. At this time, most of the AFTRA income derived from voiceovers comes from radio and TV advertising, not Internet pure plays. But if radio can't transition to new media easily, the revenue to AFTRA will decline and not be replaced from Internet pure play fees because the pureplays have a model that does not cause agencies to have to pay two separate fees, one for OTA and one for streaming.

Part of the reason why AFTRA does not understand this is that they have not been adequately lobbied by radio and they have not been shown business models that would indicate that they will suffer from their short-sighted policies.

It's an issue that's gotten nowhere in Congress. It's a big mistake that AFTRA has made, and radio stations DO have to negotiate with AFTRA on other more direct substantive matters, so they've apparently concluded that it's not worth it right now.

This is not a congressional matter... it is essentially a labor negotiation. And radio has not made itself more a part of this, perhaps because they are not either the provider of services or the payer for them.