I wish LA had another classic hits station

[dgendvil]

With all this talk about Los Angeles radio getting so over radioed with tons & tons of spanish stations in that market, why doesn't Los Angeles have any room for another classic hits stations like KLSX & the old Eagle 94.1 in San Diego? They need a station like 97.1 the Drive in Chicago, 99.5 the Mountain in Denver, 102.3 the Mountain in Wilkes Barre, 107.7 the Lake in Buffalo, 93.1 the Lake in Madison, which plays a deeper variety of classic hits & album cuts, & 98.9 in Rochester, which mostly plays stuff from the 80's & 90's, not the same 300 song playlist at KLOS, & I don't like the voiceover from Jack, too. Jack doesn't play too much of their heavy stuff, like what KLOS does, & the old KNAC, too. Besides I listen to those stations online, too. But I like their San Diego station better than LA because of the Padres & the Chargers. What do you think about that idea?

Here are the links to most of those stations:

98.9 the Buzz, Rochester www.buzzrochester.com url

99.5 the Mountain, Denver www.995themountain.com url

102.3 the mountain, Wilkes-Barre www.102themountain.com url

93.1 the Lake, Madison www.931thelake.com url

97.1 the Drive, Chicago www.wdrv.com url

Cheers

 

[davideduardo]

With all this talk about Los Angeles radio getting so over radioed with tons & tons of spanish stations in that market, why doesn't Los Angeles have any room for another classic hits stations like KLSX & the old Eagle 94.1

I think there is a bit of confusion about terms.

"Classic Rock" is what you are describing. "Classic Hits" is essentially the KRTH Oldies format moved into the 70's and out of the 60's with new name that does not taste "old" and targeted at 40-54.

The major problem with all formats in LA is that the market is bout 75% ethnic or immigrant, and that group generally has little interest in classic rock.

 

[rockroll0617]

LA had another classic hits station

And those stations listed are really more AAA or Variety hits
than Classic Hits.

 

[semoochie]

As long as we're on the subject: Updated Oldies stations seem to have taken over the Classic Hits moniker. Isn't this confusing for the sales staffs of the old Classic Hits stations? Is there a new name for them? This all strikes me as quite peculiar: Here you are doing business as usual and another station starts calling their format the same name as yours, despite the fact that it's a completely different format!

 

[pqgeorge]

I think LA's got a great station already with KRTH ("K-EARTH 101"). While vacationing in Anaheim 2 weeks ago (I'm from the Boston area), I was really pleasantly surprised with KRTH. This is the kind of oldies/classic hits station that I wish were on the air here in Boston. Yes, we have WODS ("Oldies 103.3", a great station) but somehow I find myself disappointed in the presentation. "K-EARTH" was fun to listen to and the jocks and the producers sound like they're really having a great time doing it. It's nice to know I can listen to KRTH (minus the local spots, mind you) on web back here on the East Coast as well. I used to think KOLA/99.9 was a great oldies station. But, I was somewhat disappointed with them this time around. So, it was 101.1 for me!

 

[LV Foghead]

rockroll0617 had the answer. L.A. needs a AAA station.

 

[davideduardo]

rockroll0617 had the answer. L.A. needs a AAA station.

It had one, KSCA. It failed. It barely got a low-1's share, which, of course, they blamed on the signal. Haha.

LA is 75% ethnic and immigrant, groups that have pretty near 0% interest in AAA. There just is not enough interest to sustain a niche format, AAA, in a market where non-Hispanic whites are a niche themselves.

 

[raydioaydio]

rockroll0617 had the answer. L.A. needs a AAA station.

It had one, KSCA. It failed. It barely got a low-1's share, which, of course, they blamed on the signal. Haha.

Eduardo, do you have a job? Or do you just spend all day trolling these boards acting like you know every answer to every question?
Or the bigger question, if you do have a job, do you ever work at it. What must your employers think? Do you ever do your own work, or do you just spend all day reading the radio-info boards?

 

[radioresearcher]

rockroll0617 had the answer. L.A. needs a AAA station.

It had one, KSCA. It failed. It barely got a low-1's share, which, of course, they blamed on the signal. Haha.

Eduardo, do you have a job? Or do you just spend all day trolling these boards acting like you know every answer to every question?
Or the bigger question, if you do have a job, do you ever work at it. What must your employers think? Do you ever do your own work, or do you just spend all day reading the radio-info boards?

We should be grateful that David takes the time to share his thoughts and insights with us. David is one of the most knowledgeable radio people I've ever met or come across.

People attack him because they don't agree with him or like what he says - which is usually him telling the truth.

What we're missing in 2007 is people teaching radio and David takes his valuable time to partake on these boards.

Considering David's stations currently own three of the top seven spots 25-54 in Los Angeles, I think his employer is pretty damn happy with him - not mention the fact they are generally the market leader among Spanish language stations in almost every market they are in - and he's had a major role in that.

David - keep it coming.

 

[JustinT]

rockroll0617 had the answer. L.A. needs a AAA station.

It had one, KSCA. It failed. It barely got a low-1's share, which, of course, they blamed on the signal. Haha.

LA is 75% ethnic and immigrant, groups that have pretty near 0% interest in AAA. There just is not enough interest to sustain a niche format, AAA, in a market where non-Hispanic whites are a niche themselves.

You'd be hard pressed to find an AAA that can pull substantial numbers anywhere though. WBOS in Boston and WXRT in Chicago do quite poorly in the ratings, but both stations have two things: affluent listeners that advertisers want, and sales staffs that can turn lousy numbers into big bucks. Looking at WBOS, which I am more familiar with, with low overhead (including an automated morning drive block), the station bills around $10 mil. per year in Market 11. The station's biggest expense by far is a colossal free concert that not only satisfies the listeners but also gets decent coverage in local media.

Not saying AAA wouldn't work in L.A., perhaps it would be fit only for signals like the 103.1s. But looking at the ratings only tells part of the story for most AAAs.

 

[davideduardo]

You'd be hard pressed to find an AAA that can pull substantial numbers anywhere though. WBOS in Boston and WXRT in Chicago do quite poorly in the ratings, but both stations have two things: affluent listeners that advertisers want, and sales staffs that can turn lousy numbers into big bucks. Looking at WBOS, which I am more familiar with, with low overhead (including an automated morning drive block), the station bills around $10 mil. per year in Market 11. The station's biggest expense by far is a colossal free concert that not only satisfies the listeners but also gets decent coverage in local media.

But Boston is less than 18% combined ethnic, leaving a pool of over 80% which is non-Hispanic white, and it still averages less than a two share. Put that in LA today, and you have a 0.6 share! There is some interest in the age and income level, but keep in mind that the number 1 Lexus dealer in LA sells two-thirds of its cars to Hispanics!

WXRT has declining revenues, and WBOS has been at the same level for 7 or 8 years, so the margins have to be getting thinner...

 

[briancraig]

I'm not saying AAA is the right format for Los Angeles.

But to say that only "white" people are interested in that music may be too much of a stereotype. David, are you are expert in what 25-54 Asians want to hear? Isn't that the fastest growing segment of L.A.'s population?

KCRW pulls in lots of dollars (millions) when they do a pledge drive. That "niche" audience is loaded and you'd think some commercial station could find a way to tap into it.

 

[davideduardo]

I'm not saying AAA is the right format for Los Angeles.

But to say that only "white" people are interested in that music may be too much of a stereotype. David, are you are expert in what 25-54 Asians want to hear? Isn't that the fastest growing segment of L.A.'s population?

No, the Hispanic portion of the population is the fastest growing in terms of numbers of people. The non-Hispanic white and Black populations are shrinking.

But first generation immigrants will not listen to AAA. It is not until the second generation, and maybe the third, that a taste for something as "American" as AAA would be acquired. Most of the Hispanic and Asian population is not at that stage... and there will be vastly fewer ethnic users of this kind of format than, say, pop, which is universal around the world.

KCRW pulls in lots of dollars (millions) when they do a pledge drive. That "niche" audience is loaded and you'd think some commercial station could find a way to tap into it.

Listeners do not directly support stations. Ad revenues do. And ad revenues are in proportion to audience numbers, and generally not related to income of listeners... or KIIS and KPWR would not be two of the top 4 billing stations in LA. KCRW is 28th in LA.

 

[LV Foghead]

Triple A is a great subject.
We could probably debate why KSCA didn't work until the cows come home. They certainly did have some excellent talent there, who truly knew the music, and knew how to deliver it..
Diverse areas such as the San Francisco - Bay Area have KFOG (which ranks #7 in their market) and Denver has KCBO (which ranks #8 in their market). These stations have stuck with the AAA format for decades and have very loyal (and as earlier stated affluent) listeners.
I don't understand why Ad $$$ go to whoever has the highest ratings. This makes no sense at all:
* I would guess that the "affluent" AAA listener has twice, three times, or more the annual income (and spending power) of the average KIIS, KPWR, etc. listener.
* Being more loyal, the AAA listener will stick with "their" station through commercials, that will at least be heard here, rather than the Pop listener who will push the button to switch to another station.
Attention Advertisers: I don't subsribe to Sirius to avoid your spots. I'm simply looking for what the L.A. Radio Execs won't give me.
And if the AAA niche won't work in L.A., how does the "Smooth Jazz"(/ KTWV) format survive/do so well? I would imagine the listeners to both formats to be much the same with loyality and cash flow.
Triple A will never be the #1 station in any market. But, their 1 or 2 shares of the audience, could to the advertisers, be as good as or better than, the 5 and 6's the Pop stations pull.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't understand why Ad $$$ go to whoever has the highest ratings. This makes no sense at all:*

Most things advertised on the radio are mass-marketed, so income levels are not generally a factor.

In fact, I looked at KFOG and on high income, > $75,000 ranks 6th, with only a tiny difference between 6th and 7th. The assumption that AAA overperforms on high income is nt true in this case.

I would guess that the "affluent" AAA listener has twice, three times, or more the annual income (and spending power) of the average KIIS, KPWR, etc. listener.

As mentioned, in San Francisco, where income levels in general are high, KFOG does no better in upper income on rank. On the other hand, in Chicago, WXRT is about 20th in 12+, but about 10th in upper income. Of course, WXRT is a rather poor performing overall station.

* Being more loyal, the AAA listener will stick with "their" station through commercials, that will at least be heard here, rather than the Pop listener who will push the button to switch to another station.

I can't see why a hip hop partisan would be any less loyal to their favorite station... or a smooth jazz partisan... or a regional Mexican partisan. It's about one's own taste being satisfied. And, whenever there are two or more similar stations, hopping is pretty common int he car, but remember that only about 30% of radio listening is in the car.

Attention Advertisers: I don't subsribe to Sirius to avoid your spots. I'm simply looking for what the L.A. Radio Execs won't give me.

LA radio execs do not do AAA because they know the pool of AAA listeners is significantly smaller than in nearly any other major US market. This is a niche format to begin with, and where the ethnic and immigrant listeners will severely underindex if they listen at all, the format makes no sense.

And if the AAA niche won't work in L.A., how does the "Smooth Jazz"(/ KTWV) format survive/do so well?

Because KTWV has 52% Black and Hispanic listenership. So they are not dependent on just non-Hispanic white listeners as an AAA in the LA market would be.

I would imagine the listeners to both formats to be much the same with loyality and cash flow.

KTWV ranks a couple of positions higher in upper income vs. pure 12+. But, there are few ad buys based on income, so this is an added plus for some accounts but not for most.

Triple A will never be the #1 station in any market. But, their 1 or 2 shares of the audience, could to the advertisers, be as good as or better than, the 5 and 6's the Pop stations pull.

Not to that extreme. A 2 share with AAA in LA might bill a bit over the normal revenue share for a 2 share, but never as much as a a 3 share station or above. The first criteria of an agency buyer is cost per ratings point... and the rates will be based on that. Good qualitative will maybe get a staiton with lower ratings on the buy (when the buy is, let's say, 5 deep but the station is 7th... they still have to match CPP, though).

 

[SuperRadioFan]

car listening vs home listening

whenever there are two or more similar stations, hopping is pretty common in the car, but remember that only about 30% of radio listening is in the car.

David, you've been mentioning this figure for years. How is this figure determined? Also, I know its just anecdotal, but since my living depends to a certain extent on radio listening, I have asked everyone I know how much radio listening they do at home and most if not all say never or very little. Personally, my wife never listens to any radio in our home. I listen to news/talk stations like KFI in the AM while I am getting ready for work, and at other times I may listen to Angels games or more specifically Angels post game shows like Angel Talk at home. Other than that I do very little radio listening at home. In the office that's another story. But than again (heh heh) I listen to a lot of Internet streams. (like CBS-FM or Radio Paradise). Or I may have KOLA on or another station. So maybe office listening makes up a lot of the 70% listening away from a vehicle.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: car listening vs home listening

"whenever there are two or more similar stations, hopping is pretty common in the car, but remember that only about 30% of radio listening is in the car."

David, you've been mentioning this figure for years. How is this figure determined?

Arbitron provides, in the computer ratings data called Maximi$er, listening location data. One can see this based on cume by location, TSL weekly by location, share by location, etc. Generally, what we look for is what percentage of quarter hours are in each listening location... home, car, work ("other" is insignificnt).

This data is available because Arbitron, in the diary, has a check box for listening location on every line of data written in.

Also, I know its just anecdotal, but since my living depends to a certain extent on radio listening, I have asked everyone I know how much radio listening they do at home and most if not all say never or very little.

As you said, this is anecdotal. When people commute for the national average of about 25 minutes each way in MSA's, yet may be at work for 8 hours or so, the number of quarter hours at work (or at home) is much greater.

More PEOPLE listen in the car than anywhere else, but they don't listen much compared to other locations.

Personally, my wife never listens to any radio in our home. I listen to news/talk stations like KFI in the AM while I am getting ready for work, and at other times I may listen to Angels games or more specifically Angels post game shows like Angel Talk at home. Other than that I do very little radio listening at home. In the office that's another story. But than again (heh heh) I listen to a lot of Internet streams. (like CBS-FM or Radio Paradise). Or I may have KOLA on or another station. So maybe office listening makes up a lot of the 70% listening away from a vehicle.

In LA, listening is about 31% in the car, with the rest split between 26% at work and 41% at home.

 

[raydioaydio]

[/quote]

Not to that extreme. A 2 share with AAA in LA might bill a bit over the normal revenue share for a 2 share, but never as much as a a 3 share station or above. The first criteria of an agency buyer is cost per ratings point... and the rates will be based on that. Good qualitative will maybe get a staiton with lower ratings on the buy (when the buy is, let's say, 5 deep but the station is 7th... they still have to match CPP, though).
[/quote]

But if you can get a 2 share with a Triple A station, rather than a 1.7 share on, say, KBIG... a station whose music can be heard on any of a number of other stations in the market, why wouldn't CC just flip KBIG to something that offers a unique product, and serve potential listeners who aren't currently being served?

 

[davideduardo]

But if you can get a 2 share with a Triple A station, rather than a 1.7 share on, say, KBIG... a station whose music can be heard on any of a number of other stations in the market, why wouldn't CC just flip KBIG to something that offers a unique product, and serve potential listeners who aren't currently being served?

I think it is doubtful that AAA could do a 2 share in LA; KSCA, about 10 years ago, went out with a 1.1 in its last book, and its final year was in the 1.1 to 1.4 range. The market is more ethnic now, so even expecting that kind of share is probably optimistic. My guess would be, after several years, a 1.2 might be the max, and the average perhaps a 0.9 to a 1.1.

KBIG, in its women 25-54 target, has about double the share it has in 12+, and is a rather solid buy when combined with KOST and KYSR, in the Clear Channel "wall of women" sales strategy.

The issue is probably that there are not enough of this kind of unserved listeners in LA. I would imagine that all conceivable format options have been researched here, and the ones not on the air have been discarded.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

David is on the money. I wish it were not so, but whatever.... To Radioaydio may I suggest RadioParadise.com ? Or any other decent AAA over-the-air station that also streams in 64kbps+ or any other decent AAA Internet station? Forget AAA in LA. We DO have Indie 103.1 while not AAA comes close to being a real alternative. Its the closest thing to the OLD 101.9 KMPC-FM/KEDG The Edge circa 1987-89 when they had Jim Ladd, JJ Jackson, Rachel Donohue, and Company.