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"IBOC at Night, Five Years Later"

So far this article is only in the printed edition of Radio World, 2/13 issue, page 36.

"While it may have some benefit to the handful of FM listeners who have equipped themselves with 'HD' radios, I have to conclude that as concerns AM, it serves as nothing more than legalized jamming. (And the Cubans, at least, jam with music, not noise.)"

It's authored by James O'Neal, the technology editor of TV Technology and a contributor to Radio World. It references Barry McLarnon's site which tabulates how many AM-HD operations are still on the air. O'Neal concludes: "Maybe it's time to give AM IBOC up altogether. As witnessed [the article is mostly an account of the author's listening experiences across the AM band], skywave-delivered IBOC doesn't work."
 
dumber than a box of hair said:
So far this article is only in the printed edition of Radio World, 2/13 issue, page 36.

"While it may have some benefit to the handful of FM listeners who have equipped themselves with 'HD' radios, I have to conclude that as concerns AM, it serves as nothing more than legalized jamming. (And the Cubans, at least, jam with music, not noise.)"

It's authored by James O'Neal, the technology editor of TV Technology and a contributor to Radio World. It references Barry McLarnon's site which tabulates how many AM-HD operations are still on the air. O'Neal concludes: "Maybe it's time to give AM IBOC up altogether. As witnessed [the article is mostly an account of the author's listening experiences across the AM band], skywave-delivered IBOC doesn't work."

I am an experienced DX'er, and have done everything I can to get HD at night. I have never been successful at getting more than a flash of an indicator for a second or two. Contrast that with C-Quam, I would regularly listen to WLS AM at night in stereo from Houston, using a $49 Sony AM stereo Walkman. C-Quam works at night. HD does not.
 
In my limited experience, C-Quam is definitely WAY better than IBOC at being able to hear a signal in less than ideal conditions, and I much prefer it. However (although my experience is limited), as soon as you have co-channel interference with which the two stations' carriers are slightly off frequency, you have platform motion. When that's not an issue, though, at least on my SRF-42 (which is currently disassembled), I've had C-Quam signals in stereo down to weak levels which other similarly-sized mono-only radios couldn't even resolve the signal!

For C-Quam, I'm wondering is there a way to get rid of the platform motion when there's co-channel interference, while keeping the stereo field with weak signals? (For graveyard-channel DXers, it'd also be nice to have an option to turn the platform motion on, or better yet pan individual stations (provided they themselves aren't broadcasting in stereo but the receiver is "force-demodulating" or whatever you want to call it) to specific places in the sound stage.)
Speaking of graveyard DX, even for mono receivers, how much of an impact would it have on the "rumble" heard at night on those channels if ALL GY stations were required to synchronize their carrier frequencies to exactly 1xx0.000000?

For digital (IBOC or whatever) ... many of you analog DXers probably have the ability to aurally pull one station out from under a couple others when there's severe co-channel interference. What would be required for digital to replicate that ability?

Then, there's the issue of how to get full pre-NRSC-mask audio quality from, for example, 1080 KSCO, 1060 KKVV or 1060 KTNS, from the southwest part of Columbia Park in Torrance, CA, without any trace of splatter, overload, front-end desense, etc. from 1070 KNX (assuming they turn their IBOC off & restore their 10 kHz C-Quam audio). :-\
 
MarioMania said:
I'm guessing people still listen to AM HD

There is only one station receivable in Houston, it is WTAW College Station on 1620. What I have found is that if you are in an area with absolutely no interference from power lines and other sources, it decodes. The moment you drive near a power line, even if it is not a noisy one, the HD lock drops. Granted it is about 60 miles from my location, but I had similar results with KMIC 1590 before it dropped HD. Only it was a lot closer, and therefore a lot more powerful. The least little bit of power line noise, less than ten miles from the towers, and HD would go out of lock. It wouldn't return until you were completely away from power lines. The problem is - power lines go along just about every street, and so there was very little HD reception possible.

C-Quam was much more robust.
 
With the NAB/iBiquity working on all-digital AM tests presently, expect that to become one of the primary planks in any formal "reviatlization plan" put forward. The irony here is, if the "industry" can "convince" AM to go all-HD, then that puts pressure on FM adoption. Meaning the weakest link in the technological chain becomes the one that provides it with the "muscle" to push forward.

Of course, proponents' strategy is multifaceted...but I wouldn't discount a phoenix-from-the-ashes sort of situation.
 
diymedia said:
With the NAB/iBiquity working on all-digital AM tests presently, expect that to become one of the primary planks in any formal "reviatlization plan" put forward. The irony here is, if the "industry" can "convince" AM to go all-HD, then that puts pressure on FM adoption. Meaning the weakest link in the technological chain becomes the one that provides it with the "muscle" to push forward.

Of course, proponents' strategy is multifaceted...but I wouldn't discount a phoenix-from-the-ashes sort of situation.

At some point, the advocates will run out of will power. They already showed apathy at the CES show. The money to keep promoting this system has to be running out, AM stations are turning it off with the total number of stations now under 200. WTAM is one of the latest to give up from reports on another board, and that was a big one. WOAI turned it off well over a year ago, and they are in iBiquity's back yard.

C-Quam offers iBiquity a face saving opportunity. With many HD radios decoding it, they could quietly encourage stations to make the switch, push out firmware upgrades to HD radios that won't do C-Quam, then announce an "enhanced" AM HD that actually works, and spend the next 20 years telling people "we told you so" and "see-we made it work". The general public wouldn't even have a clue what really happened.
 
Agree with rbruce about C-QUAM. At the end of the day, any solution for AM has to work in the objective sense. Push-marketing and wishful thinking, in the end, won't provide any real-world answers. IBOC-AM simply does not work at night and all-digital will NOT make any meaningful improvement over hybrid. The system is simply too fragile and dropout/muting prone.

The fond hope is for an all-digital system to resuscitate AM. Do I see a likely scenario where WCBS, WTAM, WOAI etc. turn off their analog carriers in favor of AM HD? I do not. iBiquity and the NAB can stack the deck with show-horse "studies" all they want - the desired objective where all existing AM receivers are instantly obsolete and big cash-cow news/information blowtorches voluntarily and exclusively rely on the halting, now-you-hear-it-now-you-don't screechy IBOC digital stream, is simply not gonna happen.

There will either be a truly hybrid workable solution - C-QUAM is the logical answer - or things will remain as they are, IMHO. How can an all-digital "solution" be successfully pushed for AM when there aren't even any AM-HD receivers available any more?
 
Savage said:
Agree with rbruce about C-QUAM. At the end of the day, any solution for AM has to work in the objective sense. Push-marketing and wishful thinking, in the end, won't provide any real-world answers. IBOC-AM simply does not work at night and all-digital will NOT make any meaningful improvement over hybrid. The system is simply too fragile and dropout/muting prone.

The fond hope is for an all-digital system to resuscitate AM. Do I see a likely scenario where WCBS, WTAM, WOAI etc. turn off their analog carriers in favor of AM HD? I do not. iBiquity and the NAB can stack the deck with show-horse "studies" all they want - the desired objective where all existing AM receivers are instantly obsolete and big cash-cow news/information blowtorches voluntarily and exclusively rely on the halting, now-you-hear-it-now-you-don't screechy IBOC digital stream, is simply not gonna happen.

There will either be a truly hybrid workable solution - C-QUAM is the logical answer - or things will remain as they are, IMHO. How can an all-digital "solution" be successfully pushed for AM when there aren't even any AM-HD receivers available any more?

That's the way to do it. PLEASE take IBOC completely off of AM and go with C-QUAM in wide-band Stereo. C-QUAM handles well on skywave. The "platform motion" issue in early AM Stereo has been (for the most part) has been eliminated thanks to improved technology. The sooner they get that wideband jamming (IBOC) off of AM and go to improved C-QUAM Stereo, the better.
 
Who gets AM radio anymore?
(Said after listening to a "20 db over S-9" noise floor in my apartment last night :mad: .)

If anyone ever sees a "Part 15" on e-bay, send me a link. I hear that's the biggest problem with reception. The manufacturer says they are obsolete.
 
rbrucecarter5 said:
WOAI turned it off well over a year ago, and they are in iBiquity's back yard.

WOAI is a station in San Antonio, Texas, which is the home of Clear Channel. (And it's owned by Clear Channel, BTW.) iBiquity is based in Columbia, Maryland.

- Jonathan
 
mmnassour said:
Well, let's say they're in their "back yard" ... metaphorically. Or, would "in bed" be more appropriate?

I thought iBiquity was located in San Antonio. It was Clear Channel that I was thinking of, and since they are one of the major investors in HD radio, and use WOAI as the poster child for the success of the system, WOAI shutting it off is a major blow to the HD Alliance. There is no mention of HD on the WOAI site, and a search on their site brings up a station list for San Antonio that does not include WOAI. The only two AM's listed in San Antonio on the HD list are KTSA and KRDY. Radio Disney I believe - not so sure about KTSA because I don't hear a trace of hash on 540, I would if they were running HD.
 
The two CC AM's here with HD recently put their audio on two of their FM's as an HD-2 signal. The AM-HD's are in mono. The HD-2 FM feeds are stereo and sound much better - no reason to keep the brickwalled/filtered AM's strangled with HD; turn the HD-AM off, restore frequency response to 10.2KHz and turn the analog stereo back on!
 
Better still - scrap the 1990 NRSC preemphasis scheme for which no receivers were ever produced anyway. Open AM up to 13 or 14 kHz where adjacent channel conditions permit! 8)
 
Was there a second NRSC curve, in 1990?
The Denon TU-680NAB was both AM Stereo and met the NRSC pre-emphasis/de-emphasis standard.
I use mine all the time.
Of course, I'd love to see a "McKay-Dymek AM-5, The Next Generation", with a couple of additional bandwidth filters, x-band tuning, and a remote-controlled antenna with memory. ;D
 
There wasn't a second NRSC to my knowledge. Okay, I plead guilty to "overstatement for dramatic effect." :p AFAIK there were FEW receivers produced to the NRSC curve. And in any case, for my money, the earlier (relatively) flat receivers sounded great with pre-NRSC AM transmissions with older transmitters and antenna arrays which would pass 13 kHz or wider. Sure, there was a slight issue with adjacent-channel chatter, but that could be fixed with nighttime bandwidth cutbacks, easily done with today's modern digital processors. Just program them to narrow down to 10.2 at pattern change time.

All three of our transmitters, the Nautel AMPFET-25kw, the nighttime BE AM-2.5 and the 1962-vintage backup-backup RCA BTA-1R can do 14 kHz without breaking a sweat. And my recollections of great-sounding AM pre-NRSC are not just fond, foggy memories. I have airchecks - plenty of 'em. CKLW comes to mind (using multiband processing into a 1947 tube-type 50kw RCA rig.) Incredible audio quality.
 
AM music sounds really good on all recently designed radios. By recently designed, I mean within the past 15 to 20 years. Another piece of iBiquity misinformation / outright lies was their contention that AM radios are limited to 3 to 4 kHz response. This was true in the old "All American 6" transistor radio design and its derivations. Those designs used three IF transformers. You can recognize them by color of the adjustment slug - yellow, white, and black. The fourth can, which had a red adjustment, was the oscillator / mixer / converter stage. These radios used no RF gain transistor - RF gain was accomplished by the Q of the ferrite bar antenna and antenna section of the tuning capacitor. One transistor was the oscillator, the second two were IF gain, the fourth was an audio pre-amplifier, and the last two were a class B push pull amplifier stage. There was also one, and most likely two audio transformers. This design changed little for 3 decades, surviving the change from germanium transistors to silicon, PNP to NPN.

Slight variations occurred to add an RF gain stage - usually a can with a green adjustment. Radio Shack made a variation with 4 IF cans. Transistor counts varied from 7 or 8 for tuned RF models, up to 9 for models with a more powerful audio output or voltage regulation. Transistor count was perceived as a measure of receiver quality, the more transistors the better - which led to 10 to 12 transistor units where the extra transistors did almost nothing. But the constant was the audio response at 3 to 4 kHz.

Two key technical advances changed AM radio design completely:

With the advent of IC's, a lot of the gain functions were put into the IC. Some IC's contained just RF components, such as the LA1260 from Sanyo, others also had audio output capability like the TDA1083. Initially, they still used the IF cans and therefore had the same audio response as before. Those ICs also made it very easy to incorporate FM into the radio, so there were almost no AM only radios made.

Ceramic filters were introduced about the same time, but the IF can manufacturers fought very hard to survive by cutthroat price reductions to fend off encroachment by ceramic filters. They eventually lost the battle - relegated to oscillator and FM detector sections. Along with the change to ceramic filter IF stages came cost reductions, and ceramic filters got very bad.

The bottom line is that the present state of AM radio sections of radios is pathetic. They are wideband - not by any desire on the part of radio manufacturers to produce radios with good audio quality, but due to the fact there is one very cheap, sloppy ceramic filter for IF. I have found radios with AM bandwidth of +/-40 kHz. So if you have a strong local station with nothing near it in frequency, music sounds really good! But put a station nearby, and you get a mixture or only the stronger of the two stations. My daughter's little radio, bought ten years ago, was a good example. We were in Dallas, she wanted to hear Radio Disney on 620 - a strong local station. But KSKY on 660 completely swamped it due to the wide IF response. I installed a better ceramic filter, and the radio worked just fine. I have found radios that use a ceramic capacitor instead of a ceramic filter to save money. This, of course, makes the entire selectivity of the radio dependent on the Q of the ferrite bar antenna and the tuning capacitor resonant circuit. I am not sure I'd even call them superheterodyne at this point. The tune the antenna, tune the oscillator, but the IF is just a broadband amplifier. So they are little better than all tuned RF design, which I have also seen in novelty radios. If the tuning capacitor only has a single section, and there is no oscillator coil, it is pretty obvious you are only one step above a crystal set.

Where iBiquity lies came in - they carefully hand picked a set of radios that had the old all American 6 reference design, took the response, and announced to the world that typical AM radios are limited to 3-4 kHz, and nobody would miss broadband response so they could brick wall low pass AM audio so their system would work. The problem is - no all American 6 reference design radios have been produced in almost 20 years, and virtually all new AM radios are broadband. Not only will consumers notice a change to station audio quality, they will also hear sideband hiss from the portions 10-15 kHz, and also from 5-10 kHz unless the radio is perfectly on frequency. iBiquity has perpetuated this lie for years and been virtually unchallenged. It makes you wonder what other lies they told us. It is not just bad science, it is corrupted science, altered to support their pre-conceived publicity no matter what the truth is.

FM sections of most radios aren't much better. People care about FM more than AM, so you see a true superhet design with two gang antenna / oscillator tuning, one ceramic filter (accompanied by one IF can about 50% of the time), and either ceramic or coil discriminator. The result is a credible unit for local and some rim shots, with the added IF can doing a lot to eliminate images in strong signal locations.

I've been able to improve almost any of these new radios by putting in better ferrite bars for the AM, putting in better ceramic filters for AM and FM, and actually aligning the thing with instruments - a step that seems to be omitted by manufacturers. Doing so yields radios with decent selectivity about +/- 6 kHz AM, and decent sensitivity. FM radios with one 150 kHz ceramic filter instead of 280 kHz can tune second adjacents next to locals, and in some cases first adjacents if they have some good signal strength relative to the local. I wouldn't call them "DX models", but there is a lot of good design put into those IC's and it can lead to decent performance if the surrounding components give it half a chance.

The newest IC's are offering a lot of promise. They take even more components into the IC, directly sampling AM, and using integrated filtering for FM IF. I've even seen chips from people like SiLabs that put everything except the antennas into the IC. It is a sad end to hardware hacking to improve the radios, because the IC does everything with no handles for the hobbyist to change things, but if the trend continues even the $5 radios at Walmart will have the same capability as a top of the line component, because they use the same IC that integrates everything and leave no room for cost reduction.

What happened to analog clocks 25 years ago is happening to radios - single reference designs that are going to be "as good as it gets". It will be a few years yet, but it will happen. Smaller, cheaper, one IC, small, low power consumption, and with great performance. It will happen. I just wonder at this point whether AM will even be included on the IC because AM antennas are bulky.
 
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