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IBOC haters You have a new focus: Thailand

AM HD actually makes sense, and should work well in areas of the world where there isn't a little pea-shooter mom 'n pop station every 20 miles or so. Here in the US, the AM band is as crowded as a hot nightspot on Saturday night. But in Europe, Asia, and Africa, it actually could work just fine. Of course, there are enough open frequencies in these places for DRM to be a viable option as well.
 
Mike Walker said:
AM HD actually makes sense, and should work well in areas of the world where there isn't a little pea-shooter mom 'n pop station every 20 miles or so. Here in the US, the AM band is as crowded as a hot nightspot on Saturday night. But in Europe, Asia, and Africa, it actually could work just fine. Of course, there are enough open frequencies in these places for DRM to be a viable option as well.

The press release appears to refer only to FM, not AM. I doubt whether many people in those parts of the world are seriously considering the use of AM HD - for one thing, they use 9 kHz channel spacing rather than 10 kHz.

Barry
 
I also doubt any other countries will try the AM HD.
If they decide to try, though, the 9 khz spacing shouldn't matter.
AM iBOC stations are basically being let "run wild" as if they are THE only radio station, and if your'e not required to
acknowledge, protect, and respect your neighbor and their listeners, what difference does does it make whether
you're disrespecting 9khz or 10 khz spacing?
 
The thunderstorms during monsoon season would kill IBOC-AM in Thailand anyway, due to all the static crashes.

C-Quam AM Stereo is/was big in Thailand, however, with many stations using it and promoting it on the air. Same thing with Brazil, which is now also toying with IBOC.
 
"IBOC haters?" Guess that would be directed to people like me. (Not "people who are concerned about illogical, indefensible adjacent-channel interference." No: it's "IBOC haters." Just a little perjorative in the ol' language department, but....)

It's amusing that "IBOC lovers" need to go to third-world, sparsely-populated countries in the ongoing search for an HD-AM "success story." Canada? Nope. Europe? Non. Russia, Ukraine, et al? Nyet. Continental Europe: Non, nein.

Maybe IBOC will be a home run in Yemen.
 
Hit the POST button instead of PREVIEW. My apologies. I meant to write "sparsely station-populated" countries.
 
FM HD works well, and despite the naysayers who insist on lumping AM and FM together, is a proven technology. AM is MUCH more troublesome, it seems. My point was not that you must seek distant lands to find a success story. In the US FM HD is already a success story (1500 stations, support from major manufacturers, huge electronics retailers like Best Buy actively promoting, and finally properly demonstrating the technology).

But if the AM dial is largely empty in your part of the world, whether the channel spacing is 9khz or 10khz, some of the arguments against AM HD kind of dissolve. You needn't worry about interfering with neighbors, when the nearest neighbor is a hundred miles, and 40 kilohertz away. Hell, you can even space the digital information more widely, so you needn't limit highs to 5khz. Widening the spectral "window" mitigates many, though not all of the problems with AM HD. But then if you have room for that, you also have room for DRM. Neither a pro, nor con on AM HD, imho...merely "fair and balanced" as our friends at Faux News might put it.
 
I dont know, if HDFM really works well or not any more I am about to give up on it all together, its just not working out for me as I had hoped. I thought at first it was my antenna, but I can still recieve a decent analog signal when DX'n. I had big hopes it would be enough to DX HD. But I guess not.
 
As long as there is lightning, skywave and associated selective fades/phase distortions, HD AM is going to have problems. Thailand, Europe, Asia, Yemen, Russia, anywhere. Its the nature of the beast that is choking on its own vomit right here in the good ole USA as more AM stations have turned off the noise at night. That boat is sailing into the sunset right in the harbor, listing hard to starboard, taking on water. Crew is flashing back, "list.... what list?".

Too much fun....
 
Mike Walker said:
FM HD works well, and despite the naysayers who insist on lumping AM and FM together, is a proven technology. AM is MUCH more troublesome, it seems. My point was not that you must seek distant lands to find a success story. In the US FM HD is already a success story (1500 stations, support from major manufacturers, huge electronics retailers like Best Buy actively promoting, and finally properly demonstrating the technology).

Right now, it works well on FM. I'm still concerned that, as more and more stations light up, the already crowded FM bands will get a lot worse. There is just so much spectrum available. In areas with little or no congestion on the dial, it is a wonderful thing. Just perfect for Wyoming. When all the stations are jammed fairly close together, it may be another story. We'll see.


Mike Walker said:
But if the AM dial is largely empty in your part of the world, whether the channel spacing is 9khz or 10khz, some of the arguments against AM HD kind of dissolve. You needn't worry about interfering with neighbors, when the nearest neighbor is a hundred miles, and 40 kilohertz away. Hell, you can even space the digital information more widely, so you needn't limit highs to 5khz. Widening the spectral "window" mitigates many, though not all of the problems with AM HD. But then if you have room for that, you also have room for DRM. Neither a pro, nor con on AM HD, imho...merely "fair and balanced" as our friends at Faux News might put it.

In third world countries that have a handful of AM stations - mostly government operated - it should work OK. In the USA, we do not have the luxury of an un-crowded AM band. Being a free enterprise kind of guy, I like having lots on little stations, rather than a handful of government supported stations. I’d rather hear from “Mom & Pop” than some government big wig.
 
Savage said:
"IBOC haters?" Guess that would be directed to people like me. (Not "people who are concerned about illogical, indefensible adjacent-channel interference." No: it's "IBOC haters." Just a little perjorative in the ol' language department, but....)

It's amusing that "IBOC lovers" need to go to third-world, sparsely-populated countries in the ongoing search for an HD-AM "success story." Canada? Nope. Europe? Non. Russia, Ukraine, et al? Nyet. Continental Europe: Non, nein.

Maybe IBOC will be a home run in Yemen.

Ahh Mr Savage, bloodied but undeterred from sarcasm.

Using your logic, if I may presume to call it such, some stark facts:

After 54 years the majority of countries don't use the NTSC TV sysytem. "Failure"

Most nations never used AM stereo either C-Quam nor Kahn. "Failure"

FM stereo took quite awhile to catch-on in most nations, would have at points been called "Failure"

The vast majority of countries don't even use our 60/120 power standard. Mega "Failure"

Canada? Nope.

Did you read the PDF on this? It clearly states

Considering all of the evidence presented in this report, the DRCG makes the following
recommendations with respect to the Canadian FM-band environment:
(1) As announced in its revised radio policy, the CRTC should refrain from
licensing permanent HD Radio or other in-band DRB operations until
Industry Canada has established appropriate technical rules.
(2) Before regulatory action is taken to authorize permanent in-band DRB
facilities, Industry Canada should:
• complete a detailed technical evaluation of in-band technologies,
including theoretical studies by CRC as well as additional co-operative
field assessments in spectrum-congested markets; and,
• establish clear mitigation measures to deal with harmful interference, if
caused by digital operations within the protected service areas of
existing stations.


And:

Broadcasters should continue monitoring in-band DRB developments,
especially in the USA, to determine when it may be appropriate to introduce
this technology in Canada, taking into account the following indicators:
• the number of affordable portable and home in-band DRB receivers
that are being purchased by the public; and
• the number of in-band DRB receivers that are being purchased as
OEM equipment in new vehicles in North America; and
• the tuning levels for in-band DRB services (both simulcast and
multicast) that are being achieved in US radio markets.


This translates as wait and see.

On your side you have.......?

Lino
 
If I may offer for Mr Savage, were I in his boots, I would say on his side he sees a neighbor who has seems to have contempt and disregard for his existance.

After 70 years of fairly well regulated spectrum, he finds the rules changed to devalue the public he has been granted licenses to serve.

I am not an iBOC hater. I have often related that I find the FM HD worth the minor noise added.
Well, if the whole 96k is used for one stream.

The AM is a B-grade horror movie not meant to be really watched, unless you're watching for all the mistakes.
There is a big difference in usable resolution of data modulated at 1 Mhz vz 100 Mhz, which is a big reason why it can only support a 36k stream. This regardless of bandwidth used. Radios could use many different frequencies for IFs; in the first superhets , the IFs
were so low, you could literally hear the mixer at the upper-end of the hearing range. The audio was "intermodulated" with audible
artifacts MUCH like digital artifacting heard at low resolutions. Solution? Higher IF frequencies right away. More resolution.
No artifacts. Now we're trying to move too much data at 1 Mhz.

Given that a great deal of dead air exists between words, etc, this system is massively inefficient as "no data" to report requires as much energy (and noise) as 100% modulation.

And they still haven't figured out how to bribe mother nature or violate the laws of physics.

Limping badly on both legs, dragging the bear traps they have willingly affixed to each foot, AM iBOC stations continue to abuse
their listeners with crippled, pre-interfered audio. Poulsen must be laughing in his grave. The arc sounded better!
 
Savage said:
Hit the POST button instead of PREVIEW. My apologies. I meant to write "sparsely station-populated" countries.

Like Brazil that has more stations per capita than the US? I see. (And where there are no daytime AMs, either, but more 50 kw AMs than in the US)

Or, taking just one market, Mexico City, where there are over 60 full market fulltime radio stations in just one city? (Mexico City has 31 AMs of which more than half are 50 kw or over) and many of the FMs are 150 to 200 kw ERP.
 
Kevin Tekel said:
The thunderstorms during monsoon season would kill IBOC-AM in Thailand anyway, due to all the static crashes.

Give me a break. I have owned AMs in a tropical country and managed them in another. Monsoons, which have different names in different parts of the world (like typhoon is the same as hurricane) do not produce enough static to hurt AM reception in the primary coverage area of any AM station. In fact, there is worse static in Florida than in most of the tropics.

C-Quam AM Stereo is/was big in Thailand, however, with many stations using it and promoting it on the air.

80% of radio listening in Thailand is to FM.

Same thing with Brazil, which is now also toying with IBOC.

There is no toying in Brazil.... HD is approved and the two largest operators of AM and FM stations have already ordered equpment and the government has liberated them from import tax payments. AM stereo was on only a handful of stations at best, in a nation with thousands of total stations...
 
Savage said:
It's amusing that "IBOC lovers" need to go to third-world, sparsely-populated countries in the ongoing search for an HD-AM "success story." Canada? Nope. Europe? Non. Russia, Ukraine, et al? Nyet. Continental Europe: Non, nein.

There are a number of nations like Austria that have, simply, eliminated AM entirely... it is hard to have HD AM if there are no AM stations there.
 
More sophistry from IBOCers, and more personal attacks. I never said anything about Austria. I referred to "Europe" which includes other little countries like the United Kingdom, France and Spain. You know, SPAIN, where the dominant language is "Clevelandese?"

The US has a long history of worldwide broadcast technology leadership in many instances. The dynamic facing broadcasters across the globe, when successful technical schemes have been launched, has been "get on board or be left behind." (I pause here to allow the IBOCers to emphatically nod their heads.)

My point - and I know this is where pro-IBOCers and I part company - is that the "get on board and dig the benefits!" dynamic is totally missing with HD-AM, and largely missing for HD-FM. In the former case, the system just doesn't work. It offers marginal sound quality for most consumers, the coverage is lousy and the interference, co- and adjacent-channel, is unacceptable. It also flunks the political smell-test. You can't impose an elitist system that offers little real-world benefit, drives up costs, and benefits large operators at the expense of independent operators (the much-maligned "mom & pop" stations.) In the latter case, HD doesn't offer enough of a definitive improvement to result in widespread acceptance. The really quantifiable benefit, that of additional subchannels, has yet to motivate notable levels of implementation by stations or adoption by listeners. Perhaps over time it will. But, as The Inspector has noted here, the ramp-up is embarassingly slow to date, and he's not alone. Read the recent commentaries in RW, Radio Ink and Inside Radio.

As far as the rest of the world choosing not to adopt various US technical standards over the past decades, such as NTSC TV and 60-hertz AC line frequency, the difference is: those standards were never arrogantly promoted throughout the rest of the world as "the answer" to some perceived shortcoming of the status quo. IBOC is. And it has been rejected by most countries which have considered it.

As far as C-QUAM and Kahn-Hazeltine AM stereo, those systems were failures HERE as well. So it's fallacious to hold them up as an argument to justify HD-AM has having the potential for success, if myopic naysayers would just stop bashing it and give it a chance.

Has anybody noticed? Since the Great Nighttime HD-AM turn-on on 9/14, the number of new installs is.....zero. (Source: iBiquity's website and Barry McLarnon's HD station count webpage.) The number of stations using HD at night continues a slow decline.
 
More sophistry from IBOCers, and more personal attacks. I never said anything about Austria. I referred to "Europe" which includes other little countries like the United Kingdom, France and Spain. You know, SPAIN, where the dominant language is "Clevelandese?"

There you go again............

Let's see, Europe adopts and implements it's version of dab in the mid-nineties..a full six years before even on-air testing is allowed here.

So let me get this straight, iboc is a failure in Europe because they didn't junk their established system for ours when it finally became available. Oh, and not to mention that it was only given final approval some 12 years after their drm.

It (AM iboc) also flunks the political smell-test. You can't impose an elitist system that offers little real-world benefit, drives up costs, and benefits large operators at the expense of independent operators (the much-maligned "mom & pop" stations.)

Bet that FM operators complained about having to junk entire airchains to go stereo 40 years ago.

...Then there is color television....

In the latter case, HD doesn't offer enough of a definitive improvement to result in widespread acceptance. The really quantifiable benefit, that of additional subchannels, has yet to motivate notable levels of implementation by stations or adoption by listeners. Perhaps over time it will.

Funny but the Europeans were saying the same thing untill cheaper receivers became available...now the complaints are not enough receiver stock and too many stations crammed into a "pod'.

As for improved fidelity, if you can notice the difference between a cassette and cd, you'll notice analog vs. digital fm. However i do agree in that some stations need improvement in their pre-processing of the digital feed.

As far as the rest of the world choosing not to adopt various US technical standards over the past decades, such as NTSC TV and 60-hertz AC line frequency, the difference is: those standards were never arrogantly promoted throughout the rest of the world as "the answer" to some perceived shortcoming of the status quo. IBOC is. And it has been rejected by most countries which have considered it.

It's a product that a company is selling. A good republican will understand this. As for the "rejection" I already addressed that.

As far as C-QUAM and Kahn-Hazeltine AM stereo, those systems were failures HERE as well. So it's fallacious to hold them up as an argument to justify HD-AM has having the potential for success, if myopic naysayers would just stop bashing it and give it a chance.

As I see it, the main advantage AM iboc has is being bundled with it's fm counterpart. Frankly, I doubt that any AM stand-alone would have an impact these days.

You are making this too easy....

Lino
 
Savage said:
More sophistry from IBOCers, and more personal attacks. I never said anything about Austria. I referred to "Europe" which includes other little countries like the United Kingdom, France and Spain. You know, SPAIN, where the dominant language is "Clevelandese?"

Austria is but one example. AMs are being reduced in number in many countries, with the near 50% reduction in the AM count in Canada one good example. South Africa only has a half dozen or so left, and many places in Latin America have considerably fewer AMs than 20 years ago. AM is all but gone from the Lesser Antilles and places like the Cayman Islands, the netherlands Antilles, etc. France and England have downscaled either the number of stations or the power output on state run stations, and the Spanish AM nets have migrated to FM in several major cases.

The US has a long history of worldwide broadcast technology leadership in many instances.

That is, no doubt, why in Europe, Africa and Asia there is little US made gear. Or why most TV transmission equipment in Latin America is Japanese... Europeans developed the first digital storage applications for radio, not the US.

The dynamic facing broadcasters across the globe, when successful technical schemes have been launched, has been "get on board or be left behind." (I pause here to allow the IBOCers to emphatically nod their heads.)

HDTV was first implemented in Asia. The US has no leadership in broadcast technology or innovation and hasn't since the cart machine and the Optimod were invented.

My point - and I know this is where pro-IBOCers and I part company - is that the "get on board and dig the benefits!" dynamic is totally missing with HD-AM, and largely missing for HD-FM.

The problem in evaluating HD AM by US standards is that most of the rest of the world smartly recognized that higher power was needed for AM, and that daytimers were not a good idea.

In fact, every directional I know of in South America was installed by preference over a non-directional system. HJED in Cali, 50 kw on 820, is directional to cover up and down the Cauca Valley, without wasting power in the mountains. Several Santiago de Chile stations are directional because the country is only 50 or 60 miles wide, yet 2500 miles long... so they don't shoot wasted power over the Andes; this is much what I did with Ecos de la MOntaña in Quito, directional North South where the people were. Radio 10 in Buenos Aires is 100 kw directional over the metro, as non-directional does not give enough signal, even on 710, to cover the metro adequately.

The US, on the other hand, used 60 to 70 year old licencing criteria to build a band where less than 20% of AMs in the top 300 metros adequately cover the market day and night. Nearly every AM elsewhere is full market coverage; nearly none of ours are.

In the former case, the system just doesn't work. It offers marginal sound quality for most consumers, the coverage is lousy and the interference, co- and adjacent-channel, is unacceptable.

In my third generation car radio, the audio on one example, KNX, is muce cleaner and brighter and crisp in HD, and the HD coverage is slightly greater than the analog noise-free coverate is.

In nearly all cases, any interference is to stations that are not serving or getting listeners in the problem areas. Your station may be one of a number of exceptions, and deserves to be reviewed by the Commission, but it is not the rule.

It also flunks the political smell-test. You can't impose an elitist system that offers little real-world benefit, drives up costs, and benefits large operators at the expense of independent operators (the much-maligned "mom & pop" stations.)

Just like you have the right to "pursue" happiness, you do not have the guarantee of same. In a competitive economy, you have no guarantee that you will not be overcome by technology, superior competition or bosolesence of your "product."

As far as the rest of the world choosing not to adopt various US technical standards over the past decades, such as NTSC TV and 60-hertz AC line frequency, the difference is: those standards were never arrogantly promoted throughout the rest of the world as "the answer" to some perceived shortcoming of the status quo. IBOC is. And it has been rejected by most countries which have considered it.

HD is not being "arrogantly pushed" around the world. Today, in much of the world, anything American is suspect, anyway. Being an American development may be a disadvantage.

Has anybody noticed? Since the Great Nighttime HD-AM turn-on on 9/14, the number of new installs is.....zero. (Source: iBiquity's website and Barry McLarnon's HD station count webpage.) The number of stations using HD at night continues a slow decline.

As stated before, there are so few viable AM signals that it may not matter.
 
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