Out of curiosity since we have that situation locally. If an AM daytimer obtains an FM translator which continues to operate after the originating station signs off, does the top of the hour ID contain the legal ID for the AM station, (even though it isn't relaying the AM at those times), the translator ID, or neither of the above (if the translator IDs by FSK or is only IDed at the required times). Enquiring minds want to know.
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IDing AM to FM translators with AM off
- Thread starter gr8oldies
- Start date
47 CFR 73 1201:
It would seem to me (based on the spirit and not the letter of the rules) that the translators should identify themselves without the AM station when the class D AM is not operating.
So at 12 midnight, I'd be expecting to hear "Timeless Favorites 1210 and 99.9 W249BK Anytown"
At 12 noon, I'd expect to hear "Timeless Favorites 1210 and 99.9 WQDA Anytown W249BK Anytown"
I'm only aware of one AM station with a translator, and both are identified aurally at the top of each hour.
It would seem to me (based on the spirit and not the letter of the rules) that the translators should identify themselves without the AM station when the class D AM is not operating.
So at 12 midnight, I'd be expecting to hear "Timeless Favorites 1210 and 99.9 W249BK Anytown"
At 12 noon, I'd expect to hear "Timeless Favorites 1210 and 99.9 WQDA Anytown W249BK Anytown"
I'm only aware of one AM station with a translator, and both are identified aurally at the top of each hour.
The rule you are quoting is for AM stations relocating to the expanded band area 1605-1710 but are still on the air on their original frequency somewhere down the band and simulcasting on both station.
Typically translators ID via FSK (frequency shift keying) which is inaudable over the air and needs a decoder to hear it. Dont know this for a fact but I think the ID of the primary station is what is required since the translator is simply a copy of that. Of course your specific situation of the daytimer signing off instead of dropping to flea power is unique.
Typically translators ID via FSK (frequency shift keying) which is inaudable over the air and needs a decoder to hear it. Dont know this for a fact but I think the ID of the primary station is what is required since the translator is simply a copy of that. Of course your specific situation of the daytimer signing off instead of dropping to flea power is unique.
A translator need to be separately identified only three times a day--morning, around noon, and round five. (More specific times in the rules).
The rest of the time, all that is needed is the ID of the primary station. Since the rules allow daytimers to be rebroadcast on an FM translator now, I would say the top-of-the-hour ID for the daytimer could be used even if the AM station was off the air.
The rest of the time, all that is needed is the ID of the primary station. Since the rules allow daytimers to be rebroadcast on an FM translator now, I would say the top-of-the-hour ID for the daytimer could be used even if the AM station was off the air.
TomT said:
To avoid feeding our listeners "alphabet soup" at breakfast, lunch and dinner, we use inaudible FSK to identify each of our three translators -- but for promotional consistency, we run the AM legal ID at top of hour (with no mention of frequencies) as a lead-in to network news, even after the AM daytimer signs off.
I can't find anything in the rules that prohibits this.
FSK ID seems to be disingenuous because no listener can hear it.
It is permitted however.
3 ID's per day is correct.
Why would somneone provide an ID for something that is not on? The ID of WXXX (for the AM) on the FM would seem to be, AND IS, misleading because it would be identification of the FM station as the AM that isn't on. Rules that relate to misleading broadcasts would apply but this is new and no one is thinking. This is how all the stations do it however.
Radio people, being consistent, want the same messahe regardless of what is "real". The days of ID on the two way channels, Marti channels, etc have long since gone and the learning process we had has gone.
Most translator stations use this process of forgetting the AM exists because they are on FM.
Like FSK ID it is transparent to listeners as they don't know what AM is. Congratulations, AM is gone.
It is permitted however.
3 ID's per day is correct.
Why would somneone provide an ID for something that is not on? The ID of WXXX (for the AM) on the FM would seem to be, AND IS, misleading because it would be identification of the FM station as the AM that isn't on. Rules that relate to misleading broadcasts would apply but this is new and no one is thinking. This is how all the stations do it however.
Radio people, being consistent, want the same messahe regardless of what is "real". The days of ID on the two way channels, Marti channels, etc have long since gone and the learning process we had has gone.
Most translator stations use this process of forgetting the AM exists because they are on FM.
Like FSK ID it is transparent to listeners as they don't know what AM is. Congratulations, AM is gone.
ChiefEngineer said:
One problem with a daytimer (ours is allowed no power after sunset and only 15 minutes pre-sunrise) is that its operating hours vary throughout the year -- so if we were to run the AM ID only during the day, this would require changes in the log each month. Of course that can be done, but it's easier just to run the ID every hour -- and as you note, listeners appreciate the consistency.
Many full service simulcast stations (for example, public radio networks) run joint IDs which could be considered just as misleading, particularly if one of the transmitters in the network is off the air for any reason.
"You're listening to WXXX-AM anytown USA and our FM translator W123XX, via our STL WXX4567, as we join Jim Bob down at the local car lot on our RPU WXX890 talking on his wireless microphone, while not licensed is authorized under Part 15 of the FCC rules and regulations"
Have I forgotten anything? Double hop STL??
Have I forgotten anything? Double hop STL??
Nostalgia said:
The designation AM is not a proper ID as AM is not attached to any station's legal callsign and no station is authorized as any callsign followed by AM. AM was first and is always implied if no FM designation follows or alternatively is not an AM station.
One station has a jingle which was WXXX AM and FM (City) that was pulled as AM is not a proper ID. They then hacked off the AM portion of the jingle which was pulled because it didn't sing WXXX twice followed by FM.
This too reinforces my reference that most newbies don't have a clue to the ID scheme invented by the Commission. The rpu was only identified off air. At one station our stl's were identified after signoff and then most stations had no ID for the stl. I would have to care to see if ID is still required but I am sure no one identifies them at all any longer.
The same rule apparently applies to LP as most LP stations don't use this designation.
In all this is as important as EEO. Still required but regularly worked around.
"One station has a jingle which was WXXX AM and FM (City) that was pulled as AM is not a proper ID. They then hacked off the AM portion of the jingle which was pulled because it didn't sing WXXX twice followed by FM."
TOA...
KOMA AM and FM, Oklahoma City (sung)? LOL! It was used for years and years, supprisingly with no fines or even question from the FCC....
TOA...
KOMA AM and FM, Oklahoma City (sung)? LOL! It was used for years and years, supprisingly with no fines or even question from the FCC....
Officially the proper ID is WVWA, WVWA-FM Poundridge. However I worked at a station that used an ID like WVWA AM and FM Poundridge and there was never any FCC issues. Others, like KOMA and even WLS when they were simulcasting, did the same thing.
I volunteer at a local LPFM and we do use the "LP" part of the ID.
I volunteer at a local LPFM and we do use the "LP" part of the ID.
Chuck, my radio buddy, please pardon my feeble attempt of humor and sarcasm! Perhaps I should have put a dozen or so of the little faces :
on my earlier email so all would know I had tongue planted firmly in cheek as I typed that.
I do hope you were not referring to me as a newbie!!! Yikes, I hit the airways as a teenage DJ in 1964 and got the big ticket in the early 70's (forget exactly when) after taking the broadcast engineering course from the Cleveland Inst. of Electronics on the GI bill after a stint in the USN. As a ham radio guy I was all about call signs, I remember using a dymo labelmaker and putting the callsign on our Marti unit- never heard any of the guys use it, and I doubt I did either come to think of it.
Anywho, this old timer needs to take his Geritol and hit the sack! Oh yeh- ;D
on my earlier email so all would know I had tongue planted firmly in cheek as I typed that.I do hope you were not referring to me as a newbie!!! Yikes, I hit the airways as a teenage DJ in 1964 and got the big ticket in the early 70's (forget exactly when) after taking the broadcast engineering course from the Cleveland Inst. of Electronics on the GI bill after a stint in the USN. As a ham radio guy I was all about call signs, I remember using a dymo labelmaker and putting the callsign on our Marti unit- never heard any of the guys use it, and I doubt I did either come to think of it.
Anywho, this old timer needs to take his Geritol and hit the sack! Oh yeh- ;D
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