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If not AM HD, then ???

Zach said:
You think HD radio is hard to get while moving, try tuning an ATSC channel. It's damn near impossible unless you're staring at the tower.

The 8VSB modulation scheme makes reception of ATSC difficult -- but not impossible. Check out ATSC-M/H (Mobile/Handheld), which contains tweaks to make good reception easier.

The Open Mobile Video Coalition (OMVC) was formed to promote the use of M/H streams as broadcast from ATSC (DTV) television stations, in addition to their traditional ATSC streams. If the tweaks work as advertised (and I don't know how well they actually do work), then putting one or more audio-only streams on an ATSC broadcast station wouldn't be that difficult to do.

- Jonathan
 
jhardis said:
Zach said:
You think HD radio is hard to get while moving, try tuning an ATSC channel. It's damn near impossible unless you're staring at the tower.

The 8VSB modulation scheme makes reception of ATSC difficult -- but not impossible. Check out ATSC-M/H (Mobile/Handheld), which contains tweaks to make good reception easier.

The Open Mobile Video Coalition (OMVC) was formed to promote the use of M/H streams as broadcast from ATSC (DTV) television stations, in addition to their traditional ATSC streams. If the tweaks work as advertised (and I don't know how well they actually do work), then putting one or more audio-only streams on an ATSC broadcast station wouldn't be that difficult to do.

- Jonathan

I had forgotten about that addition; several stations in my state are purported to be using it but I have no way of verifying if the streams are actually there.
 
This thread is great, but I have a hard time thinking there's any future for AM beyond HD. The NAB et. al. are testing all-digital as the cornerstone for their plans to "revitalize" the AM band, for which the FCC has apparently found new concern.

Considering the opacity of the testing (protocol/analysis, extent, etc.), and the fact that the band is so compromised presently, I can see the FCC going for this as an "easy" but still radical solution. The question is how it might get around the previous determination that HD uptake should be voluntary given the technology's inherently proprietary nature. Perhaps the big stations will willingly convert, and other AMs will be able to upgrade their translators to class A FMs or something?

Coupled with all of the other initiatives underway (getting HD penetration into cars via traffic datatcasting, into phones via (?), the use of analog translators to keep FM multicasting alive (for now)), I can't see the imminent demise of any aspect of HD without some fundamental crisis.

We're not there yet, and proponents are thinking a dozen steps ahead.
 
"The ATSC standard doesn't (to my knowledge) specify what a TV should do if there's no video stream. In the few cases I've seen, the TV puts up an internally-generated still indicating this is an audio-only program."

Yeah, that was what I meant by "displaying a graphic stored in [the receiver's] ROM". (I wrote that stuff early in the morning, so I wasn't thinking entirely clearly yet.) On the Pansat it shows a colourful illustration of a loudspeaker and a piece of sheet music in the lower corner of the screen, with a bunch of wavy white and blue lines in the background, but I think it can also be changed. On the DMR-EZ27, it just shows a black screen.

So, that was what I used to see during 10-03's early months as a radio simulcast. Personally, I think the ATSC probably just leave it to the receiver's manufacturer to determine how to program their equipment to handle such signals, although I'd have to study the standards a bit to be certain.

"A station could broadcast a single still slide & link it to a dozen or more different programs with different audio streams. You'd only transmit the video once -- and as a still, it would compress REALLY WELL."

That's what OPB are currently doing with their quoteunquote "audio-only" substream, except they actually transmit several stills that cycle through a continuous loop, spaced out about 15-20 seconds apart. According to Silicondust and the "channel information" readout on the Pansat, it goes out in 480P (as in "progressive") mode! Some of those actually make rather decent screen backgrounds, albeit somewhat small. ;o)
 
Well, my purpose in starting the thread was to see what ideas there were to replace or repair HD. There have been some very interesting thoughts raised here. Many of the ideas raised so far, involve migration to another band. What this really drives home to me is this: The majority of commenters, so far, believe that analog AM is a dead duck. Most also believe that anything operating on the MW band is equally doomed.

Considering that the majority of comments seem to feel that the MW AM band is basically a dead horse, I'm having a lot of trouble understanding the loathing directed towards AM HD by some folks since almost nobody seems to believe that AM, as we know it, can survive anyway. I realize that some people are frustrated that HD buzz means that they can no longer clearly receive their favorite station, but does this make a difference to the survivability of local AM radio? From a viability standpoint, I think HD interference matters only if the interference is happening within the 5mV contour (maybe the 2mV for some stations) of the affected AM station.

The unanswered question still remaining is:

Within the MW AM band, is there any technology or variant that might offer better promise for the long term prospects of AM broadcasting, other than migrating to VHF?

Can the positives of HD overcome its limitations? Personally, I have no idea, but at this point in the discussion, I see nothing tabled (yet) for the AM MW band that sounds likely to be better than HD. For all of its warts, HD does offer (arguably) higher fidelity which has been elusive previously. Stereo, while not critical (IMHO) is also offered by HD.

If nothing can be presented that works better in this band than HD, are there improvements that could be made?

What about the possibility of using an asymetrical digital modulation system to limit the power in sidebands that might affect close adjacencies?

Should HD stations consider tightening their analog signals to 4kHz or 3.5kHz to make more room for the digital carriers, thereby reducing the amount of necessary outer sideband data sent?

If that won't work, what would the risks/benefits be of identifying the HD stations with adjacent channel conflicts and offering them a reduced power, fully digital frequency to go along with their analog channel? Could the band be repacked so that, rather than operating within the adjacent channel mask, digital HD channels got their own separate channels on something like the expanded band?


I am suggesting no particular course of action here, but hoping others will take the ball and advance it with better ideas.
 
Mmmmm......probably not necessarily "dead" yet.

That so-called "HD buzz" you hear isn't Ibiquity, since that is actually a loud white-noise (static) type of sound and not a "buzzing" at all, but rather the noise from unregulated and improperly constructed electronic (read: mostly computer) equipment, including BPL in some areas. This noise can certainly make the MW band inhospitable to any transmisison, data or otherwise. And all of it is completely preventable, yet most people are either unaware of it, or they ignore it and choose not to do anything to fix it.

So although it isn't dead yet, at the very least it's not unreasonable to believe that MW has definitely been given a terminal illness.
 
Once again the fallacies of AM HD are on full display here, along with Kmagrill's masquerading as a someone sincerely interested in AM while actually trying to advance by stealth, a pro-HD agenda. This is a typical tactic of the "I really don't care either way" HD proponents.

The only thing that's "deader than analog AM" is HD AM. And the adjacent-channel problems created by the idiotic and destructive AM flavor of HD doom its acceptance in any mode - hybrid or digital-only. The adjacent-channel interference isn't just "annoying" and it doesn't just plague DX skywave listeners. Adjacent-channel HD detritus WIPES OUT other legitimate broadcasters. If anyone spewed this kind of crap in analog mode, they would be fined, and legitimately so. So why the pass for the tiny, cynical, criminal HD crowd?

You can plunk away here on a message board and wish for digital-only AM HD, and wish for 2000+ of the 4700 AM stations to go away. Neither is going to happen. It's time to move on with real plans for AM improvement. While, hopefully, being candid with one another about our motives, as opposed to blind and stupid pursuit of HD at any costs.
 
Savage said:
Once again the fallacies of AM HD are on full display here, along with Kmagrill's masquerading as a someone sincerely interested in AM while actually trying to advance by stealth, a pro-HD agenda. This is a typical tactic of the "I really don't care either way" HD proponents.

There's no point in trying to insinuate some nefarious purpose on my part nor character assassinate me. Those that know me, know better than that.

I have no axe to grind with HD, nor anything to gain by pushing HD. I'm not a member of either camp. As someone with 30+ years of broadcast experience, I'm simply intersted in what's next for the MW band. So, I mearly ask, if not HD, then what? Is there something else that can be brought to the table to either replace HD or an idea that can make HD work better? Constructive responses are far more useful than vitriol.

If you hate HD, your explanation has to be more than "it wipes out legitimate broadcasters". Okay, where is that happening? Is this happening within the affected station's 5mV or 2mV contour or is this a case of a station trying to reach a market beyond its service area? If interference is happening within the 5mV contour, why do you not think that asymetrical sidebands or a narrower skirt would help? Why would a fully digital system not work, given that it would not need to occupy adjacent channel space?

Finally, what would you propose for the MW band, other than the analog status quo, to do a better job?

Could another digital system be designed that would be better?

What about low modulation index FM? This was tried as an experiment in the early 1990s and sounded very good, according to reports, but the Achilles heel was that the carrier is shut off at 100% AM modulation, which, unfortunately also kills the FM carrier. Could this be overcome?
 
Kmagrill said:
The unanswered question still remaining is:

Within the MW AM band, is there any technology or variant that might offer better promise for the long term prospects of AM broadcasting, other than migrating to VHF?

Can the positives of HD overcome its limitations? Personally, I have no idea, but at this point in the discussion, I see nothing tabled (yet) for the AM MW band that sounds likely to be better than HD. For all of its warts, HD does offer (arguably) higher fidelity which has been elusive previously. Stereo, while not critical (IMHO) is also offered by HD.

If nothing can be presented that works better in this band than HD, are there improvements that could be made?

What about the possibility of using an asymetrical digital modulation system to limit the power in sidebands that might affect close adjacencies?

Should HD stations consider tightening their analog signals to 4kHz or 3.5kHz to make more room for the digital carriers, thereby reducing the amount of necessary outer sideband data sent?

If that won't work, what would the risks/benefits be of identifying the HD stations with adjacent channel conflicts and offering them a reduced power, fully digital frequency to go along with their analog channel? Could the band be repacked so that, rather than operating within the adjacent channel mask, digital HD channels got their own separate channels on something like the expanded band?


I am suggesting no particular course of action here, but hoping others will take the ball and advance it with better ideas.

Answer to 1 - yes, there is. C-Quam. Not the best analog stereo technology, but viable because receivers exist. All iBiquity has to do is claim they have an improvement to HD radio, call C-Quam and / or AMax "HD AM version 2" or something, and roll it out. A lot of existing HD radios decode it. It is a software change for the others.

Answer to 2 - I know you HD advocates think DX'ers are a throwback, perhaps Neanderthals in disguise living among us, throwbacks, outmodes, delusional. But if you will listen for once, I will say it again: my tests on HD-AM using the best DX techniques that would give it every chance to succeed - after all, it is something new that offered the potential for something really nice for consumers, an AM band filled with stereo music again instead of the pitiful collection of ethnic, foreign, talk, and sports on AM now. It is no wonder the AM band is dying. A band with sound equal to FM would benefit everybody, especially if format holes in music like smooth jazz, oldies, classical, Christian rock, etc. could find a home on AM. So I am pre-disposed to want an improvement like digital AM. But - again, giving the technology every chance to work, I can truthfully say the results are dismal. Less than 10 mile range with HD on one station, 290 mile stereo range with C-Quam on the same station prior to conversion. On a WALKMAN. On another station, about 30 mile HD range, as opposed to 330 mile range - again with a walkman. I have never had a successful decode of HD at night, in spite of the analog being clear and interference free. When I do get stereo decode, it is curiously distorted, high frequencies translated in frequency lower, etc. Positives for HD-AM? Only theoretical ones that are not realized in the real world. I wish it were different, but those are the facts. I used as scientific a method as I could, going into the test with no preconceived notions. I suspected the worst going into the tests, and the reality was even worse than my worst fears. HD-AM is an epic engineering disaster. My theory as to what went wrong - too much susceptibility to interference on adjacent frequencies. Too many stations on the air in the US, plus absolutely no regulation of interference producing devices. Both problems existed decades before HD-AM was even proposed, and both have accelerated during the roll-out. It is time to cut the losses and go back to something that works - like C-Quam - while the industry still can (before it bankrupts itself and AM stations on HD-AM).

Answer to 3, yes, there are improvements that could be made! Re-allocate HD - AM stations - make a portion of the upper AM band HD - only. Super power stations in the HD-AM band so they can overcome interference and penetrate buildings. NO protection outside the city of license. Make the channels 30 kHz wide so adjacents from other cities don't wipe out the sidebands locally. I think HD AM would work under those conditions, but there are a lot of unknowns like how skywave on co-channels would affect it at night. But it has a shot at working - a better one than it does now.

Answer to 4 - assymetrical sidebands. From what I can tell, there is a glut of stations in the US, to the point of being ridiculous. You might improve a few situations during the day, but at night every single frequency is a cacophony of stations mixed together - it is a great leveler of playing fields which guarantees about the same ridiculously high level of interference on each sideband. I don't think a daytime assymetrical sideband solution even has a chance at night. Too many stations running too much power.

Answer to 5 - limiting bandwidth. This has been the dream of DX'ers for decades, eliminate splatter from first adjacents. The problem is, stations don't give a darn - especially brokered ones. We have a local here - KEYH 850 - that broadcasts somebody talking a lot of the time. The sound is horrible with a high level of hum, and unfortunately - even though it is speech - there is a lot of high frequency noise. I hear this same type of poor quality on a lot of the brokered religious stations. The preachers bring in tapes recorded on poor quality cassettes - the recorders plugged into church sound systems that have never been set up right - yet the tapes are broadcast with dolby mis-adjusted and pumping out high frequencies over AM stations, clicks, pops, static, hum, noise from who knows what source. You tune in a first adjacent, and you hear levels of high frequency splatter you never thought could exist in the program material on the station. Brokered formats, marketing, high school sports, you name it and it is the same story. Now there are unfiltered MP3's on the air with sampling noise splattering on first adjacents. It is an awful situation. Federally mandated low pass filters on ALL - and I do mean ALL stations would stop most of it, but you are going to encounter stiff resistance from small stations who claim they don't have the money to clean up their audio act. Even a station that actually shows up in ratings like KEYH may have the money to do something about their awful audio, but don't care to do it. Stations don't care, they don't have to, the FCC has no enforcement power over audio quality, so your 3.5 to 4 kHz brick wall low pass will never happen. Some stations purposely splatter so they get your attention as you tune across the dial - I was told this years ago by the operator of a Spanish language station, who took pride in the fact his station splattered almost 40 kHz up and down. He claimed his listeners actually liked the distorted audio on his station so he purposely overmodulated to clip it.

Answer to 6 - second frequencies for HD-AM. What is needed is LESS stations on the AM band, not more! The original FRC was formed to PREVENT the high levels of interference produced when stations were on the same frequency. The FCC abandoned that mandate, we have AM anarchy as it is. We could get rid of 90% of the AM stations in the US and still have unacceptable levels of interference on some frequencies. The FCC has not done its regulatory job, and you advocates of HD-AM are the first ones that should be complaining about the number of stations preventing your system from working - not suggesting things to make the situation even worse. "Thin the herd" is a battle cry some HD advocates have been trumpeting, and I whole heartedly agree! There are too many stations, operating at too high power levels, and this dooms HD-AM from working. Let's fix the problems, not make them worse! I'd love to have an HD AM oldies station on the air in Houston. But it would do me no good if 4 Spanish language stations from over the border, combined with 25 English language stations all vie for the same frequency at night. It just wouldn't work. Stop the legalized jamming - THEN talk about ways to make HD-AM reliable.
 
Zach said:
You think HD radio is hard to get while moving, try tuning an ATSC channel. It's damn near impossible unless you're staring at the tower.

Only half true.....Yes, standard ATSC is hard to maintain while moving (you'd need a good tracking antenna system, sort of like the mobile satellite dishes already use), or the ATSC-M/H (Mobile/Handheld), which I proposed.

You don't have to be staring at the tower (or, "standing at" it, which I thought I read at first :) ), but you do need a reasonably multipath-free signal. I know of reliable reception of non-direct signals, at well over 100 miles.
 
K6JHU said:
From a technical viewpoint the ATSC low band solution is a 10 egg solution.

The issue is now that you have 100 channel capabilty and only 20 some odd AM stations per city, what happens to the extra space?
A good reason for broadcasters not to like that :)

The "extra space' just goes to null packets. Most DTV stations run plenty of them (although you need a few for housekeeping purposes). I'm not talking about just moving AM there, but possibly migrating everything to it in a few years (AM, FM, community radio, etc). Right now, most stations have a satellite downlink or two....why not downlink a package of services that your community can relate to (see your local demographics), with commercial avails built in? A Spanish, French, Vietnamese, etc service, or BBC World Service (or similar), together with an automation system, creates another revenue stream. Sure better than having them go SatRad, and tune out the local broadcasters. There's not a ton of money in it, but most cities have ethnic markets that would love to do some low-cost advertising...not just Mexican grocers, but Greek markets, not just food, but hair care, auto dealers and repairs, not just everyday stuff, but Churches that cater to different languages and beliefs. A smaller audience can provide a reasonable-cost ad stream for small businesses.

Whether you program 20, 30 or 150+ stations, the listeners will choose the programming they like. Some will stick with their old favorites, some will find a new format...hopefully on a channel that you make money from.
Channels can be switched on/off and expanded in BW on the fly, so the local broadcast programmer could open up a channel on Friday nights for High School Football, while still carrying their standard fare on the "#1" channel. That game could even be in surround sound. At the same time, several other games could be aired, on additional channels. Your local Sports Talk station could be a multi-channel source, with games (and, income) from several games at once.

Like it or not, the market is being fragmented. We can fragment our own slice of the pie, or we can let others (SatRad, internet, low-power) fragment it. Eaten with a fork, one bite at a time, or swallowed whole, a "slice" is still better than a crumb.
 
Can't believe I forgot to mention SOCCER.....
There's your second-channel, third-channel, money-maker ;D .
 
Any solution for AM has to be of an 'as is, where is' nature. That is to say, it needs to encompass existing radios as well as any receiving device that is in popular use now; not moving AM to another band, not embracing a digital technology like DRM that is non-existant in the US.

This means improving the quality of the signal using the techniques Mr. Savage outlined. It surprises me how many broadcasters have sorely neglected their station through improper processing, bad ground systems and poor maintenance. But I have heard stations on my wideband radio that use good processing technique and are within their 5 m/V contour that sound amazing. Good audio is possible on AM.

As has been mentioned, there are millions of ATSC receivers in use and there are many TV stations that are currently broadcasting radio. One Class A station I know of in the San Francisco market broadcasts 10 SD video channels and 10 radio-only channels. At the CES Show we are seeing a proliferation of mobile DTV devices. AM stations could easily lease at a very low cost a DTV sub-channel and either match or improve their coverage. Many TV stations are underutilizing their spectrum, so the potential for AM stations to be in the TV band are good (and without an FCC mandate).

At some point, HD Radio may reach a saturation level in cars which will necessitate a serious discussion of HD-AM. But until or if that happens, let's work with what what the majority of consumers now own and make the best of it.
 
"Do I know of any cases where HD is wiping out adjacents within their local protected contours?" I am asked, for approximately the 1000th time. Actually I do. That would be my own station, the subject of a number of complaint filings with the FCC which have spawned hundreds of pages of pleadings from WYSL and from CBS' WBZ Washington counsel. All of which, so far as anyone can tell, have been conveniently ignored by the Enforcement Bureau in classic HD "interference? We can't hear you" style. (Notwithstanding scores of field measurements, actual digital audio recordings of the interference filling FOUR CD-Rs and sworn statements from two reputable consulting firms.)

It might interest you to know that the adjacent skywave from WBZ-HD isn't just invading a 5 mV/m or 2 mV/m signal. It isn't just invading our NIF of 13.69 mV/m. On occasions it audibly interferes with WYSL local coverage approaching 100 mV/m. WBZ radiates the equivalent of 4100 mV/m directly at us one channel away at night. The RMS field in our main coverage lobe is 221 mV/m at 1km. With thundering steady-state HD digital hash directly within our passband - our consultant has calculated it's the equivalent of a 10kw local co-channel station - who do you think wins that RF war?

It's exactly like Soviet-era jamming. At times I can hear WBZ-HD under our signal down at the corner, within a 3-minute walk of the Tx site driveway, while gazing at the code beacon. If we hadn't gotten an FM translator in 2010, we would be out of business, because our AM signal can be heard clearly in December for FIVE OR SIX HOURS DAILY - all thanks to your darling AM HD.

And we're not the only ones. Ask anyone in Pittsburgh about what WBZ-HD does to KDKA - a 50kw NDA signal. Or any number of other cases exhaustively discussed here for the past five years.

HD is not going to work on AM, hybrid or digital-only. Not unless the FCC orders about half AMs off the air arbitrarily. Even then interference will doom any meaningful nighttime coverage. I live in the real world, not in the theoretical wonderland of message boards, and I happen to know what I'm talking about.

So - how about narrowband FM? Any ideas how we can get that on existing AM radios?
 
I just wish we could do something about the ever-rising noise floor. It's already creeping in to the VHF bands, and will soon limit the ability of FM stations to reach listeners.
We can't just keep moving up in frequency.
 
Savage said:
"It might interest you to know that the adjacent skywave from WBZ-HD isn't just invading a 5 mV/m or 2 mV/m signal. It isn't just invading our NIF of 13.69 mV/m. On occasions it audibly interferes with WYSL local coverage approaching 100 mV/m.

Okay, obviously this is a severe case and we know that there are other examples, too. The bigger question is what percentage of stations are experiencing severe interference from HD? What percentage are not? Did you have no nighttime interference from WBZ before they switched to HD?

Savage said:
HD is not going to work on AM, hybrid or digital-only. Not unless the FCC orders about half AMs off the air arbitrarily. Even then interference will doom any meaningful nighttime coverage. I live in the real world, not in the theoretical wonderland of message boards, and I happen to know what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure why digital only wouldn't work. In digital only mode, several data streams can be carried within the normal 10kHz NRSC passband, so there should be no interference to adjacent stations.

Quite a few of us live in the real world. I have no ownership of any AM stations, but some of my closest friends do. Some of these guys have 40+ years of professional experience and they are still managing to make a living out of AM, but it's already a pretty hard life trying to survive selling $5 spots to shops that can't afford to buy FM. Basically, the consensus is that analog AM is fading away so owners are looking for ways to remain competative.

I can think of a number of additional concepts that might have worked, but for the fact that there're no receivers. Or maybe they wouldn't have worked. I haven't really thought about it beyond the concept stage. For example, using c-quam to deliver a compressed data stream, or using c-quam as a frequency extender rather than a method for stereo.
 
It is not an unusual case at all. The IBOC sidebands created by HD AM stations are very similar to cold-war era Soviet jammers. They can wipe out or degrade reception on adjacent channels a thousand miles away. Locally, they block two or three channels either side of a station-- particularly the 50 kW HD AM facilities. That is totally unacceptable. The FCC should NEVER have authorized a system like this. It is an embarassment to our industry.

However, I am not sure what the answer to the AM dilemma is. Even if someone were to offer up a perfect solution, you would still have the problem of changing thousands of transmitters and millions of receivers to accommodate it. And most broadcasters would not be happy to see the inequities created by varying amounts of power, antenna patterns and interference levels eliminated in favor of equally good reception of all stations in a market. The industry likes it that some stations are severely handicapped while others can cover huge areas. No digital format is going to change the propagation characteristics of the AM band. It is not suited to covering just a local area, and that is what broadcasters want to do for the most part. Plus, we have way too many stations packed into the band. You would have to get about 80-90% of them to go off the air if you wanted to have clean reception day and night.

Just the fact that reception varies and that a station can't provide similar coverage and quality of service day and night is a complete non-starter from the get-go. The best thing would be to just abandon this band to handful of big signals that would serve wide areas and move everybody else to VHF or UHF. But with the glacial pace of adoption, I don't see how the industry would ever be able to get behind this.

I think the era of broadcasting is drawing to a close in favor of program transmission on the Internet over IP protocol, using any of a variety of means of access. Personally I've already gone there; I bought a CC Wi-Fi radio and that's practically all I listen to at home now. I expect my next car to have wireless Internet, and when it does I'll be using Wi-Fi radio there as well.
 
To some degree, Internet streaming is an equalizer since any station can have a formidable presence, but I think that there's a practical limit to this. Since every connection is a home run to the server, there's really no such thing as broadcasting in the sense that one source can feed many. In network land, you can only have as many listeners as you have available streams and the cost goes up as the number of listeners goes up. This is undoubtedly a discussion for another thread, but I don't see streaming as more than a small piece of the puzzle for now.
 
audioguy said:
I think the era of broadcasting is drawing to a close in favor of program transmission on the Internet over IP protocol, using any of a variety of means of access. Personally I've already gone there; I bought a CC Wi-Fi radio and that's practically all I listen to at home now. I expect my next car to have wireless Internet, and when it does I'll be using Wi-Fi radio there as well.


I'd agree with you, but the fly in the ointment is Sound Exchange and their Congressionally mandated streaming fees. If you are an Internet only broadcaster, there is a deal for you. If you also broadcast over the air and have decent listenership, it is quite expensive with little or no return on investment. That effectively kills it, unless you have very deep pockets.
 
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