If oldies are truly "dead"...

[vinyltapecd]

then why are they played tirelessly in shopping centers, and plenty of other public places as well? I was at the Lancaster, PA shopping outlets last week and had to stand outside for about 30 minutes while waiting for an important call since I couldn't get cell reception inside the stores. So I had nothing to do but listen carefully to the music played over the loudspeakers...I remember the newest song I heard in that 30 minute period was "A Sign of the Times" by Petula Clark (1966)...everything else was actually older!!! It was mostly those cheesy late 50s/early 60s "carefree" songs that remind you of the summer or beach or whatever. And guess what else I observed in that short time period...on multiple occasions, I saw teenagers or young adults (both male and female) singing along to the songs as they walked by me: they actually knew the words, and they seemed to really get a kick out of singing aloud and making a fool of themselves. These people were definitely younger than 25, so common sense tells us that if they enjoyed this music, that means people in their 30s/40/early 50s are even MORE likely to enjoy these old songs. By the way, even though I liked this music, it was a tiny bit too old for my taste...I'm 27 and my "sweet spot" for music is roughly between 1965-1985. I'm just trying to make a point here...

What I'm trying to say is that this notion of "oldies are dead" or "only 55+ individuals listen to oldies on a regular basis" is complete BS. If it were true, then why is it that the many of few oldies stations that do exist today are at or close to the #1 rated spot in their market? And even though oldies are virtually non-existent on the radio, why are they still played in public places if no one likes them???

I'm sure I'll get bashed for this, but I have a theory that the eradication of old music from the radio is a part of a conspiracy to keep the (modern) music industry alive. Oldies stations began dropping like flies in the early 2000s, and it seems way too coincidental that mainstream music began to lose its catchy tunes, rich musical backing, etc. around that same time period. And another "coincidence" is that the only songs you hear on the radio today from the 80s and 90s (besides the smash hits which are already popular and will be popular no matter what) are the ones that generally don't have catchy tunes, rich instruments, or general "universal appeal". So it seems to me like there are efforts to keep the "musically sound" old stuff out of the limelight as much as possible in order to improve the chances of promoting today's stuff, which is not as appealing in a musical sense. Now let me point out: I am in no way insulting today's artists or even today's music...I am just pointing out my observation that there seems to be very little focus on catchy tunes or rich instrumental backing, for instance, in today's music. I find this ironic, because I consider these two things to be two of the most important factors in what makes a "good song". Of course, this whole theory is just a speculation on my part, so what does everyone else think?

 

[TheBigA]

I'm sure I'll get bashed for this, but I have a theory that the eradication of old music from the radio is a part of a conspiracy to keep the (modern) music industry alive.

Wow...I'm not going to bash you, but just ask you what the motivation of radio companies, none of which own record labels, would have to keep the music industry alive? Especially when the music industry is doing so much to hurt the broadcasting industry. Starting with the fact that the quality of current music is so bad. Then the fact that the music industry is promoting this performance royalty that would criple broadcasters.

I wouldn't use the music at a shopping center as the barometer of anything besides the personal taste of the person who picks it. Radio programming is a whole lot more involved. As one who's looked at ratings information for Oldies stations, I can tell you that there are always some people around your age in the audience. But you're outnumbered by people older than you. Nothing wrong with that, but that's how statistics tend to work.

Your conspiracy theory seems like most other conspiracy theories: unfounded.

 

[landtuna]

Big A is correct, it is a conspiracy, but a good one.

There is at least as much research done by retailers, especially those in malls and big box stores, as done by radio station owners. The whole approach is to make shopping a perceived "fun" experience and entice the shopper to hang around and spend more. This is why you find shop music upbeat instead of serious. No better upbeat music than Oldies.

 

[MsMusicRadio]

PPM's on WCBS -FM, WOMC, KRTH, and WRBQ must mean somebody like the stuff. I do ,Paulie, I do. ;D

 

[radioman148]

WLS-FM is #6 in Chicago. I know I'm going to hear the usual bad mouthing about their demos, but in almost every store and mall I walk in around Chicago WLS-FM is on.

 

[billyg]

The Beautiful Music format has been dead on radio for years now, yet some malls and stores still have muzak playing soft instrumentals. What gets played there is just background music to enhance the shopping experience.

It's a shame 50's and now a lot of 60's oldies (that still test well) is being taken off the air just to keep advertisers happy. I'm glad WLS-FM is doing so well. Scott Shannon has the guts to include some 50's and "oh wow" oldies on his format now and then.

 

[TheBigA]

No one is saying the music is bad, or the music isn't popular. We know a lot of people like old music. But the older music, from the 50s and 60s, attracts an audience that advertisers don't want. And it's not that advertisers don't like older people, because a big chunk of news/talk audience is old. And it's not that the entire audience for 50s music is over 55. But when it comes to selling advertising for music radio, the older the music, the less attractive the station is to advertisers. The radio stations themselves love the music, and if they could make the same amount of money with 50s music, they'd play it all the time. So it's not a problem with the stations or their owners. Just the advertisers.

 

[kenb]

If I can jump in to your discussion... My wife and I frequent Coco's Restaurant and buy our prescription drugs at Walgreens, here in Las Vegas. Both businesses have oldies playing while you dine and walk the aisles of the store. You guys are right. It does make me happy, at 59, to hear Oldies from the 50's & 60's at these locations, when I can't hear them on the radio broadcast locally. Yes, I know they are hitting the older diner at Coco's and Walgreens is hitting their target audience (those who are buying prescriptions for their aches & pains).
In my case, I listen to my MP3 player programmed with over 2000 oldies from my personal vinyl collection, because radio stations have abandoned the over 50 demographic, for the most part. I may be nearing 60, but I still love the oldies I grew up with and will listen to them forever, or at least as long as I am upright, walking around God's green Earth.

 

[davideduardo]

WLS-FM is #6 in Chicago. I know I'm going to hear the usual bad mouthing about their demos, but in almost every store and mall I walk in around Chicago WLS-FM is on.

The fact that it is not even top 10 in 25-54 and around 16th in 18-49 is not "bad mouthing" but reality. WLS-FM plays too much toward the 50+a nd 55+ listener, while very few advertisers have any interest in this demographic group.

 

[radiotower40]

WLS-FM is #6 in Chicago. I know I'm going to hear the usual bad mouthing about their demos, but in almost every store and mall I walk in around Chicago WLS-FM is on.

The fact that it is not even top 10 in 25-54 and around 16th in 18-49 is not "bad mouthing" but reality. WLS-FM plays too much toward the 50+a nd 55+ listener, while very few advertisers have any interest in this demographic group.

WLS FM tied for 10th place in 25-54 in the May PPM's. On Saturday and Sunday, from 6 AM until Midnight
they came in 7th, 25-54. In the 18-34 group they tied for 14th place overall, tied with WLUP FM and beating
WXRT FM, both stations that target younger audiences. In the 3 PM- 7 PM drive time slot they came in 7th
among 18-34 year olds, beating most of the stations that target 18-34 in that important time period. That
would include WJMK which dropped oldies in favor of Jack, in 2005. WJMK tied for 17th in 18-34 afternoon
drive. WJMK also came in 18th place overall in 25-54, Monday through Sunday.

You are not using the real numbers, to back up your "facts", that is downright deceptive in my opinion.


That is a fact!

 

[landtuna]

The Beautiful Music format has been dead on radio for years now, yet some malls and stores still have muzak playing soft instrumentals. What gets played there is just background music to enhance the shopping experience.

There is a difference between music played at Target and in a doctor's office. Target wants to put you in a good mood, entice you to stay longer and, of course, spend more. The doctor wants to put you at ease and perhaps cover up some of the unpleasant noises common in a doctor's office. I remember the first time I stepped into a Nordstroms. They didn't have radio playing....they had a formal-gowned pianist sitting at a grand piano. They obviously wanted to make a different kind of statement.

I am constantly amazed at the number of youngsters who can sing along with the Oldies. They must have heard them somewhere.

It's a shame 50's and now a lot of 60's oldies (that still test well) is being taken off the air just to keep advertisers happy.

Remembering that advertisers are radio's true customers it is understandable to follow their directives and ignore the oldsters. Only problem is.....oldsters aren't the only ones listening to Oldies/Classic Hits formats. But advertisers may be killing the goose who laid the golden egg.

I was in my doctor's office yesterday sitting next to two young ladies (8-9 years old) who were sharing the earbuds to their mp3 player. I asked who their favorite artists were and, predictably they mentioned current female singers. I asked whether they listened to the radio and both said "never".

So, you advertisers with the narrow focus, you just might be killing the radio habits of your future customers.

Me? As one who grew up with radio and had a short career in radio and still have a larger-than-normal interest in radio I'm now feeling like the smithy of old who specialized making carriage spokes.

 

[steve732]

No one is saying the music is bad, or the music isn't popular. We know a lot of people like old music. But the older music, from the 50s and 60s, attracts an audience that advertisers don't want. And it's not that advertisers don't like older people, because a big chunk of news/talk audience is old. And it's not that the entire audience for 50s music is over 55. But when it comes to selling advertising for music radio, the older the music, the less attractive the station is to advertisers. The radio stations themselves love the music, and if they could make the same amount of money with 50s music, they'd play it all the time. So it's not a problem with the stations or their owners. Just the advertisers.

I've Got It !!! Let's Kill the Advertisers and vote out the Liberal Democrats and deport the illegals.

 

[radiotower40]

I find silence to speak volumes!

When the facts about the real numbers for WLS FM were posted by me last week, proving
that oldies are not dead, and that WLS is in fact doing rather well in the important demos,
That there is no response from a certain poster.

 

[radioman148]

I find silence to speak volumes!

When the facts about the real numbers for WLS FM were posted by me last week, proving
that oldies are not dead, and that WLS is in fact doing rather well in the important demos,
That there is no response from a certain poster.

I noticed that as well. Very interesting.

 

[davideduardo]

I find silence to speak volumes!

When the facts about the real numbers for WLS FM were posted by me last week, proving
that oldies are not dead, and that WLS is in fact doing rather well in the important demos,
That there is no response from a certain poster.

Despite WLS-FM moving to more of a 70's sound, it appears to be distancing itself from the top 10 in 25-54. In the increasingly important 18-49, they are looking closer and closer to 20th.

It's important to look at the trending from book to book... even the weeklies if subscribed.

 

[radiotower40]

I find silence to speak volumes!

When the facts about the real numbers for WLS FM were posted by me last week, proving
that oldies are not dead, and that WLS is in fact doing rather well in the important demos,
That there is no response from a certain poster.

Despite WLS-FM moving to more of a 70's sound, it appears to be distancing itself from the top 10 in 25-54. In the increasingly important 18-49, they are looking closer and closer to 20th.

It's important to look at the trending from book to book... even the weeklies if subscribed.

I've looked book to book, and WLS has been in the top 10, 25-54 in the majority of
monthlies in the past year. Any person with access to the numbers can see that.

Are there any other posters who can read the numbers, that will back me up on that?

I also pointed out that WLS came in at 7th in the all important PM drive,18-34. I stand corrected,
they came in tied for 10th. There was a four way tie for 6th, I admit I read that wrong, that was
my mistake. They still beat Alt. Rock WKQX, Rock, WLUP, Urban/CHR WKSC(KISS), Spanish WLEY,
Urban/Hip Hop WBBM FM, and a few others that spend a lot more money than WLS, marketing
to the 18-34 crowd. How do you explain that?

Monthly trends always vary month to month at almost every station rated by PPM. One month
a station might be #9 25-54, and next month be #11.

Regional Mexican formatted WOJO FM 105.1, had been #1 25-54 for quite some time now.
In the May PPM's they were edged out by Hot AC WTMX FM 101.9 and Classic Hits WDRV/WWDV
97.1/96.9 FM, which came in at #1 and 2, respectively, with WOJO coming in third.

So by using your logic, that means WOJO is in trouble and trending out of the top ten?

 

[davideduardo]

They still beat Alt. Rock WKQX, Rock, WLUP, Urban/CHR WKSC(KISS), Spanish WLEY,
Urban/Hip Hop WBBM FM, and

Well, WLEY is not a full market facility, and WBBM FM is CHR... rhythmic CHR to be sure... but not Urban. It goes to the credibility of your analysis when you misidentify formats and compare limited signals with full market ones.

Monthly trends always vary month to month at almost every station rated by PPM. One month
a station might be #9 25-54, and next month be #11.

There are no trends in PPM. Each 4-week period is a book, and even the weeklies are not trends. The PPM is a panel-based ratings system, and even a daily report can stand on its own as the panel is ongoing.

Regional Mexican formatted WOJO FM 105.1, had been #1 25-54 for quite some time now.
In the May PPM's they were edged out by Hot AC WTMX FM 101.9 and Classic Hits WDRV/WWDV
97.1/96.9 FM, which came in at #1 and 2, respectively, with WOJO coming in third.

The differences are all within the margin of error of the survey... #1 is #2 is #3 for all practical purposes. Similarly, an occasional incursion into the very bottom of the top 10 is actually the high side of WLS... its normal range is just at or below 10th... and I believe that they are now going to be at a slightly lower level.

So by using your logic, that means WOJO is in trouble and trending out of the top ten?

Being first second or third is not the same as being tenth, 11th or 12th. Any of the first positions makes a station subject of consideration for almost any buy. 10th and below does not.

 

[Al Timiter]

I don't have access to the specifics of the Chicago ratings, so for just my two cents worth and to perhaps broaden the thread a bit. I hear better music programmed at retail outlets regardless of the format. You want AC? You'll find no better "radio" station than Kohls. Want Oldies? Rite Aid is awesome and so are certain McDonalds! Want CHR? You want find one better than the junior's section of most any department store. Radio has abandoned the "art" of programming in favor of total "science."

 

[davideduardo]

I don't have access to the specifics of the Chicago ratings, so for just my two cents worth and to perhaps broaden the thread a bit. I hear better music programmed at retail outlets regardless of the format. You want AC? You'll find no better "radio" station than Kohls. Want Oldies? Rite Aid is awesome and so are certain McDonalds! Want CHR? You want find one better than the junior's section of most any department store. Radio has abandoned the "art" of programming in favor of total "science."

Your retail analogy misses completely.

People go to drug stores for prescriptions and OTC remedies. People go to supermakets for food, to department stores for clothing and accessories, to fast food joints for convenient meals. You see, nearly everybody needs food, cloting and some kind of medication.

Not everyone needs or even wants classic rock or country or urban or Spanish language pop. And there is no opportunity to combine these commodities at a "superstation" as getting country where you come for alternative rock is not a positive feature.

"Research" is just a term that means "talking to the listeners."

The first stage of research is identification of needs. How many people like different formats that are not presently in the market? How well are their needs being met today? WOuld they sample a new blend of music? What station would they listen to less? Tabulate and correlate and you find any open windows and doors, based on listener needs.

Then, you pick the best format and ask the listeners to tell you what songs to play and which ones not to play... initially you may test 1,500 songs or so to find the precise blend and target.

At that point, you have a store that is different from others and has a merchandise assortment that many people actually want and need.

 

[radiotower40]

They still beat Alt. Rock WKQX, Rock, WLUP, Urban/CHR WKSC(KISS), Spanish WLEY,
Urban/Hip Hop WBBM FM, and

Well, WLEY is not a full market facility, and WBBM FM is CHR... rhythmic CHR to be sure... but not Urban. It goes to the credibility of your analysis when you misidentify formats and compare limited signals with full market ones.

Monthly trends always vary month to month at almost every station rated by PPM. One month
a station might be #9 25-54, and next month be #11.

There are no trends in PPM. Each 4-week period is a book, and even the weeklies are not trends. The PPM is a panel-based ratings system, and even a daily report can stand on its own as the panel is ongoing.

Regional Mexican formatted WOJO FM 105.1, had been #1 25-54 for quite some time now.
In the May PPM's they were edged out by Hot AC WTMX FM 101.9 and Classic Hits WDRV/WWDV
97.1/96.9 FM, which came in at #1 and 2, respectively, with WOJO coming in third.

The differences are all within the margin of error of the survey... #1 is #2 is #3 for all practical purposes. Similarly, an occasional incursion into the very bottom of the top 10 is actually the high side of WLS... its normal range is just at or below 10th... and I believe that they are now going to be at a slightly lower level.

So by using your logic, that means WOJO is in trouble and trending out of the top ten?

Being first second or third is not the same as being tenth, 11th or 12th. Any of the first positions makes a station subject of consideration for almost any buy. 10th and below does not.

WBBM may be listed as a CHR, yet they play very little to no contemporary music whatsoever,
that is not urban! as a matter of fact, they have just recently started to play a couple of songs completely
in Spanish.

They, as well as yourself, may call themselves whatever you chose, I live in Chicago and I HEAR what
they play, and how the station presents itself. So please stop your lame, yet, persistent attempt to
discredit me.

You hop from board to board on R-I and do this to numerous people in your never ending attempt to
make your self look like you are never wrong. It is your right to continue doing so. I also have communicated
privately with others on this board, who feel the same as myself, about the way you do this. If it
makes feel good, have a great time.

While WLEY may not be a Downtown FM, they are a 22kW(50kW ERP) facility broadcasting from
the top of the WSCR 670 tower. They are as close to a full city grade signal as you can get. In some
areas, actually have better signal strength, in some places than the Chicago sticks. In the majority
of the metro area, their signal is no weaker than the best of the Downtown signals. I know, I live
here, but, your looking at technical numbers, that don't always match up with real world conditions.
So we must go buy your expertise.

Well, once again I have had to be taken off topic by you. That topic is WLS FM and how they are doing
better in many cases in the 18-34 and 25-54's than quite a few stations that TARGET those groups.

You gave it a good shot once again, and you are wrong. That is why you had to try to change the subject
again and talk down to another poster.

People on these boards are smart, they see right through you. I'm no longer going to waste my time
responding to your nonsense and ego. It is about as as fun as watching paint dry!!!

If there is anyone else that wishes to respond to his distorted postings, feel free, but be forewarned,
you will not win, he is a master manipulator.

If the moderators feel my response is harsh, I apologize, it is your job to make the call as to whether
or not my post is acceptable to you. I will say, however, that I know many posters will not respond to
a post when he is involved, which is not good for this forum which I enjoy so much. I should also note
that this has even been mentioned on other boards, that people some no longer post here much, because
of it.