If the Industry had chosen DRE's FMextra for FM......

[Fieldtech1]

Im sort of new to the debate so this may have been covered before. Just curious of your opinions........If the Industry had chosen DRE's FMextra for FM......instead of Iboc, would there still have been such a polarized debate on digital broadcasting?

If stations didnt mind backing off the modulation, I think this would have been an effective, cheaper alternative to IBOC. Since DRE's FMextra dosnt seem to have any effect on the main FM signal I think there would have been less gripes about sideband hash, paying royalties to Ibuiquity, ect, ect....

www.dreinc.com for more info on DRE FMextra

 

[Radioman100]

Im sort of new to the debate so this may have been covered before. Just curious of your opinions........If the Industry had chosen DRE's FMextra for FM......instead of Iboc, would there still have been such a polarized debate on digital broadcasting?

If stations didnt mind backing off the modulation, I think this would have been an effective, cheaper alternative to IBOC. Since DRE's FMextra dosnt seem to have any effect on the main FM signal I think there would have been less gripes about sideband hash, paying royalties to Ibuiquity, ect, ect....

www.dreinc.com for more info on DRE FMextra

Since the system is compatible with HD Radio, the industry still could utilize it, but I don't see it happening.

If they had come to the party years earlier when decisions were being made, they might have had a chance. As it is now, they're a late coming also ran that doesn't stand a chance outside niche applications. At this point, I think FMextra will be relegated to do many of the audio tasks traditional analog subcarriers have always done, but the cost disparity with analog subcarrier equipment may do them in there.

 

[ve3jf]

FMextra would certainly be a less controversial choice, since it does not usurp neighboring channels, but it is also less capable, in terms of throughput for multicasting and robustness in severe multipath environments.

What really made an FM subcarrier approach a non-starter, however, was the fact that there was no AM counterpart that offered enough throughput to do digital audio. The NAB insisted that there had to be an in-band hybrid digital system for the AM band, even though it was clear (to some of us, anyway) that it would turn out to be a lame strawman system that would ultimately prove to be a dud.

Barry

 

[Mike Walker]

The FM system works very well, but is hugely expensive for small stations. Ideally FMExtra should also be adopted. I'd LOVE to see a requirement that future digital radios incorporate both. THEN small stations could offer digital, and multicasting, and larger stations could incorporate both HD and FMExtra, for entirely too many channels (or fewer channels at higher bitrate for better sound quality).

 

[Chuck]

With a few notable exceptions, not too many people who are actually involved in broadcasting are opposed to digital radio. I think it is the inevitable future and holds a lot of promise. It's just that some of us are not very wild about the way we are currently going about it, especially for AM.

Although IBOC currently seems to work pretty well on FM, I'm not sure that it will be quite as "wonderful" when and if most stations light up their HD signals. Down in the Reserved Band, things are pretty crowded just about everywhere. When the FCC processes the current NCE FM Filing Window, I think it will be fair to say that there is “no room at the inn.” I don’t know how many how many applications were received, but you can be sure it was thousands. It is going to be VERY crowded down there. The same can be said for the entire band in any metro market. I question how well that is going to work.

From a small broadcaster's point of view, I just don't see how the current technology will make economic sense for many small stations. Unless a minimum power level is established, there is a point of diminishing return. It just is not a very good investment at this point. FMExtra would be easier to take for most small stations.

Although I am one of the folks who would like to see more variety in radio (that's why I do what I do) I don't see how adding more channels makes a lot of sense for the majority of stations. It simply divides the pie even more. The slices are already getting fairly thin. Unless you come up with formats that actually bring people back to radio, then you are shooting yourself in the foot. Perhaps in ten years, these additional channels may evolve into something worth while. Right now they are little more than place-holders. A lot can happen in ten years, but my current sights are set on the immediate future. Silly me….

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

Because of the proprietary nature of the HD system, it's hugely beneficial to those "in the front row of broadcasting", but there's little or nothing in it for those "in the cheap seats" in the FM band.

The AM transmission method, IMHO, is simply a travesty that shoudn't have been made the de-facto standard in the first place.

In a perfect world, FMeXtra (or preferably a DRM version for FM) would have been approved for FM, DRM would have been approved for AM, and extra frequency spectrum would have been set aside for each service.

Instead of a perfect world, however, we get to live on this silly ball of rock.

 

[MotoMuzak]

Interestingly enough, the majority of stations that appear to be broadcasting FMX seem to be in Europe. It appears most of the FMX stations in Europe are in the Netherlands~

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMeXtra

(Scroll down about half-way, under the header "Stations Broadcasting in FMExtra".)

 

[mgpt6]

If there was a receiver base for FM Xtra , smaller FM stations would buy into it. They say they can get two- 32kbps stereo signals within FMxtra and keep FM Stereo analog.

 

[hipporadio]

If they had come to the party years earlier when decisions were being made, they might have had a chance. As it is now, they're a late coming also ran that doesn't stand a chance outside niche applications.

RadioMan is assuming that “HD has won”—FAR FROM! In EVERY consumer survey I have reviewed; HD is DEAD LAST in particulars regarding radio reception by the mass-consumer market [behind even “decent AM reception” as a preference!] “THEY” are NOT interested—when can you corporate radio apologists read the radar?

Problem is... HD Radio was conceived by a NARROW SELF-INTEREST oriented to a NARROW SELF-INTEREST—NOT the consumer electronics industry charged with building a product that the mass-market actually had interest in! “They” [corporate radio] ‘invented a problem” that DIDN’T EXIST among the folks who were supposed to buy the $250 receivers! Those folkes were smarter and had other options!

This is the most INSANE premise for “marketing” I have EVER WITNESSED!

 

[Radioman100]

RadioMan is assuming that “HD has won”—FAR FROM! In EVERY consumer survey I have reviewed; HD is DEAD LAST in particulars regarding radio reception by the mass-consumer market [behind even “decent AM reception” as a preference!] “THEY” are NOT interested—when can you corporate radio apologists read the radar?

Problem is... HD Radio was conceived by a NARROW SELF-INTEREST oriented to a NARROW SELF-INTEREST—NOT the consumer electronics industry charged with building a product that the mass-market actually had interest in! “They” [corporate radio] ‘invented a problem” that DIDN’T EXIST among the folks who were supposed to buy the $250 receivers! Those folkes were smarter and had other options!

This is the most INSANE premise for “marketing” I have EVER WITNESSED!

Has it "won" in the "battle" against FMeXtra? Absolutely.

You continue to tout the same tired "consumer interest" argument. Well, guess what buddy, cheap HD Radios are here and more are coming, imbedded in other devices. HD Radios for new cars are here and more are coming. When they've been here a while, come back and gloat if you can. I seriously doubt you'll be able to.

 

[vsa]

RadioMan is assuming that “HD has won”—FAR FROM!  In EVERY consumer survey I have reviewed; HD is DEAD LAST in particulars regarding radio reception by the mass-consumer market [behind even “decent AM reception” as a preference!]  “THEY” are NOT interested—when can you corporate radio apologists read the radar?

Problem is... HD Radio was conceived by a NARROW SELF-INTEREST oriented to a NARROW SELF-INTEREST—NOT the consumer electronics industry charged with building a product that the mass-market actually had interest in!  “They” [corporate radio] ‘invented a problem” that DIDN’T EXIST among the folks who were supposed to buy the $250 receivers!  Those folkes were smarter and had other options!

This is the most INSANE premise for “marketing” I have EVER WITNESSED!

Has it "won" in the "battle" against FMeXtra?  Absolutely.

You continue to tout the same tired "consumer interest" argument.  Well, guess what buddy, cheap HD Radios are here and more are coming, imbedded in other devices.  HD Radios for new cars are here and more are coming.  When they've been here a while, come back and gloat if you can.  I seriously doubt you'll be able to.

The same old tired "consumer interest" argument????? Isn't "consumer interest" fundamental to the success of any digital radio initiative? Or to any future for radio? Do you plan of forcing people to buy HD radio receivers at gunpoint? Do you also plan on forcing people to use them?

http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---1.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---p.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/inside-the-bedr.html

 

 

[Radioman100]

The same old tired "consumer interest" argument????? Isn't "consumer interest" fundamental to the success of any digital radio initiative? Or to any future for radio? Do you plan of forcing people to buy HD radio receivers at gunpoint? Do you also plan on forcing people to use them?

http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---1.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---p.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/inside-the-bedr.html

It's pretty simple. There's nothing about the technology in and of itself that would spur consumer interest. It's what the product can do for consumers, which thanks to the industry's absolutely horrendous marketing, they won't discover until they pretty much stumble onto it.

Here's the current marketing for HD Radio... "HD Radio. Buy a product that allows you to listen to SOMETHING!"

Would anyone buy that product? Not likely.

But when people buy other products (like cars and multi-function entertainment systems) that just happen to be equipped with HD Radio technology, and then discover the additional stations that are available to them, word of mouth will spread, or not. Until then, the "consumer interest" argument is a total waste of time, because consumers aren't apathetic to the product, they're apathetic to the lousy marketing. That's the only thing the current "consumer interest" proves because (as you guys love to point out) hardly anyone has heard the actual product. But they will, whether they make a conscious decision to or not.

 

[clouseau]

RadioMan is assuming that “HD has won”—FAR FROM! In EVERY consumer survey I have reviewed; HD is DEAD LAST in particulars regarding radio reception by the mass-consumer market [behind even “decent AM reception” as a preference!] “THEY” are NOT interested—when can you corporate radio apologists read the radar?

Problem is... HD Radio was conceived by a NARROW SELF-INTEREST oriented to a NARROW SELF-INTEREST—NOT the consumer electronics industry charged with building a product that the mass-market actually had interest in! “They” [corporate radio] ‘invented a problem” that DIDN’T EXIST among the folks who were supposed to buy the $250 receivers! Those folkes were smarter and had other options!

This is the most INSANE premise for “marketing” I have EVER WITNESSED!

Has it "won" in the "battle" against FMeXtra? Absolutely.

You continue to tout the same tired "consumer interest" argument. Well, guess what buddy, cheap HD Radios are here and more are coming, imbedded in other devices. HD Radios for new cars are here and more are coming. When they've been here a while, come back and gloat if you can. I seriously doubt you'll be able to.

The same old tired "consumer interest" argument????? Isn't "consumer interest" fundamental to the success of any digital radio initiative? Or to any future for radio? Do you plan of forcing people to buy HD radio receivers at gunpoint? Do you also plan on forcing people to use them?

http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---1.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---p.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/inside-the-bedr.html

For the love of God could anyone stop posting links to this same tired Jacobsmedia, jerry delcolliano, Gorman, Hear2See stuff. ( I'm delighted to see I have even forgotten Mark whoeverheis's name.)

If we throw out reality and start over on FM, here's what "I" always thought made sense. This is based on the premise that you can get radios out there and actually have a "Digital" audience for FMX.

FMExtra, with the main carrier in analog Mono, carrying News/talk/whatever. (Your current AM signal sounding a LOT better.) This leaves (According to the FMX docs) 128 K remaining. How about 2 solid music channels at 64KPS stereo each?

Instant 3 station cluster. Think Sports (Great Mono Fidelity) + Classic Rock, Active rock...64 Kbps stereo each... A sales dream.

How about Radio Disney (mono, no new radio, Kids get the cast off...), with Hot AC and 80's on the digital? (Oh God we're in the MUSIC business.)

How about I should have stopped at the first one and thought about it more. There's better stuff out there than I've listed...

This is 3 FM quality signals PER FREQUENCY. Clear Channel could own ALL formats with a full blown cluster. Do I see 18 formats, 2/3 in stereo in their future??? Better polish up that Kenmore sales pitch. heh heh

Arthur Liu could have 5 formats per FM signal. Maybe more if FMX will divide to 16 KPBS.

This would have been cool. Then those of us "Stand alone AM" folks would REALLY be screwed. But seriously. I would have been better for radio, I think.

No politics here, but I would love to have seen this. (Even though I suspect I'd be doing a lot more engineering and a lot less operating.)

Clouseau

 

[vsa]

The same old tired "consumer interest" argument????? Isn't "consumer interest" fundamental to the success of any digital radio initiative? Or to any future for radio? Do you plan of forcing people to buy HD radio receivers at gunpoint? Do you also plan on forcing people to use them?

http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---1.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/cvc---whoah---p.html
http://jacobsmedia.typepad.com/jacobs/2007/10/inside-the-bedr.html

It's pretty simple.  There's nothing about the technology in and of itself that would spur consumer interest.  It's what the product can do for consumers, which thanks to the industry's absolutely horrendous marketing, they won't discover until they pretty much stumble onto it.

Here's the current marketing for HD Radio...  "HD Radio.  Buy a product that allows you to listen to SOMETHING!"

Would anyone buy that product?  Not likely. 

But when people buy other products (like cars and multi-function entertainment systems) that just happen to be equipped with HD Radio technology, and then discover the additional stations that are available to them, word of mouth will spread, or not.  Until then, the "consumer interest" argument is a total waste of time, because consumers aren't apathetic to the product, they're apathetic to the lousy marketing.  That's the only thing the current "consumer interest" proves because (as you guys love to point out) hardly anyone has heard the actual product.  But they will, whether they make a conscious decision to or not.

There is no word of mouth. I recently purchased and had an aftermarket car stereo installed at a very popular big box retailer in the Los Angeles metro that stocks HD auto radio. No, mine does not have HD radio capability. The busy installer told me he could recall installing one HD auto radio. One.

 

[Chuck]

If we throw out reality and start over on FM, here's what "I" always thought made sense. This is based on the premise that you can get radios out there and actually have a "Digital" audience for FMX.

FMExtra, with the main carrier in analog Mono, carrying News/talk/whatever. (Your current AM signal sounding a LOT better.) This leaves (According to the FMX docs) 128 K remaining. How about 2 solid music channels at 64KPS stereo each?

Instant 3 station cluster. Think Sports (Great Mono Fidelity) + Classic Rock, Active rock...64 Kbps stereo each... A sales dream.

How about Radio Disney (mono, no new radio, Kids get the cast off...), with Hot AC and 80's on the digital? (Oh God we're in the MUSIC business.)

How about I should have stopped at the first one and thought about it more. There's better stuff out there than I've listed...

This is 3 FM quality signals PER FREQUENCY. Clear Channel could own ALL formats with a full blown cluster. Do I see 18 formats, 2/3 in stereo in their future??? Better polish up that Kenmore sales pitch. heh heh

Arthur Liu could have 5 formats per FM signal. Maybe more if FMX will divide to 16 KPBS.

This would have been cool. Then those of us "Stand alone AM" folks would REALLY be screwed. But seriously. I would have been better for radio, I think.

No politics here, but I would love to have seen this. (Even though I suspect I'd be doing a lot more engineering and a lot less operating.)

Clouseau

It makes total sense. Obviously, that won't fly....

 

[Radioman100]

There is no word of mouth. I recently purchased and had an aftermarket car stereo installed at a very popular big box retailer in the Los Angeles metro that stocks HD auto radio. No, mine does not have HD radio capability. The busy installer told me he could recall installing one HD auto radio. One.

Well, what can I say. I'm not here to teach reading comprehension.

One more time for the slow ones... Products are being developed and sold now that incorporate HD Radio technology. They're not just expensive radios, they're products that are desirable for their other features, like DVD and MP3 playback or their four wheels and internal combustion engine.

This is where interest will develop or not. A lame ad campaign that promises "something" couldn't possibly develop interest in ANY product.

 

[vsa]

There is no word of mouth. I recently purchased and had an aftermarket car stereo installed at a very popular big box retailer in the Los Angeles metro that stocks HD auto radio. No, mine does not have HD radio capability. The busy installer told me he could recall installing one HD auto radio. One.

Well, what can I say. I'm not here to teach reading comprehension.

One more time for the slow ones... Products are being developed and sold now that incorporate HD Radio technology. They're not just expensive radios, they're products that are desirable for their other features, like DVD and MP3 playback or their four wheels and internal combustion engine.

This is where interest will develop or not. A lame ad campaign that promises "something" couldn't possibly develop interest in ANY product.

Last year, the failure of HD radio was blamed on a late-starting HD radio roll-out and campaign. Now, after hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising airing on HD radio cartel stations, the failure of HD radio is being blamed on lousy advertising. When will it finally dawn on you that HD radio is dead. It has no future.

 

[Radioman100]

Last year, the failure of HD radio was blamed on a late-starting HD radio roll-out and campaign. Now, after hundreds of millions of dollars in advertising airing on HD radio cartel stations, the failure of HD radio is being blamed on lousy advertising. When will it finally dawn on you that HD radio is dead. It has no future.

Who said anything about a "late-starting HD radio roll-out campaign?"

Do you seriously think the HD marketing campaign IS effective? Radio sells countless products that really are shams with far less marketing. There's ads for products that couldn't possibly work. Breast and penis enlargement pills anyone? How about those lose 20 pounds in 5 days while eating your same lardy diet pills?

The difference between these ads and the ads for HD Radio is they at least promise SOMETHING. They promise something specific. Some people are obviously dumb enough to buy the miracle pills because the ads keep coming.

If HD Radio promised you a better sex life, someone would buy it. Maybe not a bright someone, but someone nonetheless.

Not only is the HD Radio ad campaign bad, the way many stations promote it would lead most non-technical people to believe they already have it. No purchase required! The Clear Channel FMs here all do their legal IDs like this "WXYZ Anytown. Now broadcasting in HD Digital!" Well, if you're not a technical person, and someone's telling you you're already HEARING it, wouldn't you think you already have it? Thinking back to when I was 6 or 7 years old, there was an AM CHR in my town that started broadcasting in AM Stereo. One friend of mine (my first little girlfriend no less) LOVED that station, not the FM CHR that the rest of us were already listening to. I remember being at her house, turning up the radio on her little bedroom stereo and wondering what the big deal with "AM Stereo" was. The station sounded crappy compared to the FM I usually listened to. Of course, her circa 1970 hand-me-down stereo that her parents gave her was not AM Stereo equipped, but being 7 years old, I really didn't know that. It wasn't until a few years later when I was reading the instruction manual to my parents new Dodge Ram Charger (yeah, I was a strange kid) that I found out you actually needed a special radio to hear AM Stereo.

I wonder if that AM in my hometown was IDing themselves as "WXYZ Anytown. Now broadcasting in AM STEREO!"

 

[JohnnyElectron]

A day late and a dollar short, but two better ideas would have come to light:
FMeXtra and (Kahn's) CAM-D digital AM solution.

Every AM could arrange to have their signal on their local FM on an FMeXtra channel in addition to a better sounding AM signal.

Dream on - this makes way too much sense for our non-technical FCC lawyers.

 

[Chuck]

Not only is the HD Radio ad campaign bad, the way many stations promote it would lead most non-technical people to believe they already have it. No purchase required! The Clear Channel FMs here all do their legal IDs like this "WXYZ Anytown. Now broadcasting in HD Digital!" Well, if you're not a technical person, and someone's telling you you're already HEARING it, wouldn't you think you already have it?

I've talked to several non-radio people that think they have HD in their car already. Despite the fact they are not technophiles, I consider most of them to be reasonably above average in the intelligence department. The most common comment I’ve heard is they really like seeing the song title information on their radio. Of course, they are talking about RDS, which is becoming much more common on car radios. Better yet, RDS costs very little for any station to implement. Even some LPFM's have it.

The public has no idea what HD radio is. For a medium that exists primarily to deliver advertising messages, radio has done a very poor job selling HD.