If there were no ratings, how would your station be different?

[XTalker]

To prevent hijacking the thread about commercials, I thought I would ask this question again in it's own thread.

I have often thought about the things PDs do because of the ratings. And I think back to the days when we didn't worry about ratings - just about delivering fun, entertaining and informative radio! So the question is out there: If you didn't have to worry about ratings, what would you do differently on your radio station?

I have some ideas and opinions, but will reserve them to a later date.

 

[surfdude]

I'd run FOUR 2 1/2 minute spot sets ( 3 spots max.) per hour, rather than TWO loooong ones.
I think over time listeners would know the spot breaks were short, and might listen to them.

I would base PD & Jock bonuses on station revenue goals. It would encourage the talent to do a better job on production and form a spirit of cooperation with the sales team.

 

[allenv]

There would be no wasting money on a consultant for me.The listeners and the
intelligence of my employees to make good in house decisions would be my consultant.Take that money saved and put it into employee salaries,station promotions,equipment etc....Also no more than 15 minutes per hour of spots.At 15 minutes we are sold out.Hopefully the client's message would not get lost in too much clutter.My station would be manned 24/7 with live people.The music never stops except at spot breaks and I would make sure the jock had a good long intro to rap over and would always use a music bed when talking into a break.My station would also segue two songs back to back a couple of times an hour.Liners and jingles are great but you don't need them after every song.Clutter is clutter and to me a jingle or liner after every song is clutter.
Nothing wrong with a dry pre recorded liner over the intro of a song.I don't hear that much anymore.A mention of the weather in some form or fashion every 15 minutes,and either back or front sell every song that is played.Every phone call would be recorded for requests,use in promo's etc...no canned "listener" testimonials.. I hate those with a passion.I still think time checks are important too.I would have jocks cross promo each other at least twice an hour and also do quick local PSA's with the station's phone number if a listener wanted more info.I'm not a huge fan of remotes except for the fact it puts some extra money in the jock's pocket.Let's face it most of the time all we are doing is feeding the employees of the business and the car load of folks looking for a freebie.Radio is radio but some stations are simply a catering service to feed client employees.If you want food at your remote fine.. pay the station extra and we'll come with a spread but again for some reason businesses expect a station to provide lunch for the employees.A remote is supposed to help a business sell product but 99.9% of the time Joe Freeloader takes your pizza and T-shirt with no intention of buying anything.
I know guys that own more radio station tee shirts than I do from remotes.My point is are we really helping the client by having a remote just for the sake of having a remote??? I don't advocate eliminating remotes all together but there has got to be a better way to really serve the client.And last there would be at least a 48 hour turnover with music.If a song plays Monday the earliest you will hear it again will be Wednesday and to me that's pushing it....Again all this is just my humble opinion and most of these ideas people in the "know" with radio today
think I'm out of my mind..

Allen

 

[12 In a Row]

There would be no wasting money on a consultant for me.The listeners and the
intelligence of my employees to make good in house decisions would be my consultant.Take that money saved and put it into employee salaries,station promotions,equipment etc....Also no more than 15 minutes per hour of spots.At 15 minutes we are sold out.Hopefully the client's message would not get lost in too much clutter.My station would be manned 24/7 with live people.The music never stops except at spot breaks and I would make sure the jock had a good long intro to rap over and would always use a music bed when talking into a break.My station would also segue two songs back to back a couple of times an hour.Liners and jingles are great but you don't need them after every song.Clutter is clutter and to me a jingle or liner after every song is clutter.
Nothing wrong with a dry pre recorded liner over the intro of a song.I don't hear that much anymore.A mention of the weather in some form or fashion every 15 minutes,and either back or front sell every song that is played.Every phone call would be recorded for requests,use in promo's etc...no canned "listener" testimonials.. I hate those with a passion.I still think time checks are important too.I would have jocks cross promo each other at least twice an hour and also do quick local PSA's with the station's phone number if a listener wanted more info.I'm not a huge fan of remotes except for the fact it puts some extra money in the jock's pocket.Let's face it most of the time all we are doing is feeding the employees of the business and the car load of folks looking for a freebie.Radio is radio but some stations are simply a catering service to feed client employees.If you want food at your remote fine.. pay the station extra and we'll come with a spread but again for some reason businesses expect a station to provide lunch for the employees.A remote is supposed to help a business sell product but 99.9% of the time Joe Freeloader takes your pizza and T-shirt with no intention of buying anything.
I know guys that own more radio station tee shirts than I do from remotes.My point is are we really helping the client by having a remote just for the sake of having a remote??? I don't advocate eliminating remotes all together but there has got to be a better way to really serve the client.And last there would be at least a 48 hour turnover with music.If a song plays Monday the earliest you will hear it again will be Wednesday and to me that's pushing it....Again all this is just my humble opinion and most of these ideas people in the "know" with radio today
think I'm out of my mind..

Allen

Allen, if I may, time to wake up from your radio dream.

There are bad and good consultants.
I would suggest, pick a good one, otherwise, you run the risk of conducting your business in a vacuum.

15 minutes of commercials per hour IS alot of clutter.
You obviously have the best sales force in your market, thus the 24/7 staff.

The jock has a good long intro to talk about stuff (more clutter) that nobody cares about.

Just my programming opinion, when I hear a music bed being played under a jock,
this signals they are about to say nothing important.
Front and back selling every song = more clutter.

Constant time checks in 2008 are no longer important.
Digital clocks on your car radio, cell phone, wrist, etc.

Weather every 15 minutes.
Outside of morning drive, read above.

Radio remotes. Y
You are correct, 90% of them are a monumental waste of time and loaded with tons of b.s.
("Stop on by, we're having a GREAT time.")
Yeah, right!


As for serving lunch to the employees, it's part of doing business. If you buy them a lunch, they will likely ask you back.
As for the prize pigs, they're everywhere.

Some clients still belive in remotes and are willing to spend big bucks to have a radio station van come to their business.
Still sounds like crap but it helps pay the bills.

The most effective remotes are "appearances" at major events where there's a built-in crowd.

Sell these remotes to those clients and everyone wins.
(Broadcasting LIVE at the State Fair, brought to you by__________.)

I know us radio geeks are tired of hearing the same songs over and over.
That being said, the public wants to hear their handful of favorites songs over and over again.
99% of the stations that vastly expand their playlists, fail.

All of this being said, we are now faced with information/entertainment competition from places we never imagined just a few years ago.
You can now log on and instantly get the latest local, state, world news/sports/weather/time.
Satellite radio, internet radio and more choices in the future.

I-pods, where you are now your own music director, without the annoying d.j.'s talking over an annoying music bed, AND no 15 minutes of commercials an hour.

We now return you to your radio dream!!

 

[allenv]

Just like I said most think I'm crazy.A few of the points I made was from talking with listeners for 25 years like saying who sang the songs.If you do it over an intro or outro I don't think its clutter.15 minutes an hour of spots isn't too bad with 3 five minute spot sets.Time checks... well watches have been around a long time.Why in the last few years has it become so uncool to do them????
Nothing is more frustrating than when a listener calls for a song that was a legitimate hit and you have to tell them you don't play it but yet the station wants you to take request and put callers on the air??? Listeners do get tired of the same songs over and over..I realize I'm more sensitive to it but it is something
I've heard alot over the years.There is no right or wrong concrete answer to all this stuff.I'm just a big believer if the station is having trouble the first thing you do is get back to basics.Am I dreaming??? I guess so...I like my dream about Sheena Easton and some WD-40 better anyway...

Allen

 

[firecop947]

I gotta chime in on this one. We all love radio and have our own ways that we would do it. Frankly, I don't allow listeners or the sales department to program my station. There is something to be said of using a consultant. I have worked with some of the best and some poor ones too! Consultants are yet another tool that I use to help me be a better programmer; most of them allowed me input as they gave me a basic templet to use. I know Allen and respect his passion for this business, but some points I disagree.

I would run no more than 13 units per hour stopping down 2 times per hour at around :35 and :48.

I agree that you should have a piece of imaging between every song. You can never brand your station enough.

As far as not being able to play a requested song, I NEVER tell the listener that we can't or don't have it! I have them suggest another tune in case I can't find it.

We all have our ideas good,bad or whatever. I just enjoy the discussion.

 

[allenv]

Hey Kris,
Most of the places I've been the consultant had way too much say so and there were people in house who were just as capable of handling what the consultant did.Your situation sounded like more give and take which is the way it should be.
Its just my opinion that someone in another state doesn't really help much in the daily operation of a station.The request deal is a tough call.You really either take them or you don't because its really a small percentage that call and i know you can't let a few listeners run the station.If a listener gets stuck on a song I gently
try to steer them in another direction but I do tell them I can't play it if I can't play it.I try to remember we in radio tend to think alot differently than a listener.
We tend to be anal about the little things and the listener could care less.It was nice to talk to you the other day.You are someone I really respect in our business.Take care man..

Allen

 

[12 In a Row]

Just like I said most think I'm crazy.A few of the points I made was from talking with listeners for 25 years like saying who sang the songs.If you do it over an intro or outro I don't think its clutter.15 minutes an hour of spots isn't too bad with 3 five minute spot sets.Time checks... well watches have been around a long time.Why in the last few years has it become so uncool to do them????
Nothing is more frustrating than when a listener calls for a song that was a legitimate hit and you have to tell them you don't play it but yet the station wants you to take request and put callers on the air??? Listeners do get tired of the same songs over and over..I realize I'm more sensitive to it but it is something
I've heard alot over the years.There is no right or wrong concrete answer to all this stuff.I'm just a big believer if the station is having trouble the first thing you do is get back to basics.Am I dreaming??? I guess so...I like my dream about Sheena Easton and some WD-40 better anyway...

Allen

Hmmmmm, Sheena Easton and WD-40? :

In 30+ years of doing this I have come to realize, listeners lie.
They TELL you they want more variety, so you give it to them and they go away.
They WANT the hits.

Time checks outside of morning drive are pointless. The time is available everywhere and besides I don't need to be reminded it's 10:42 or 2:37.

I never got the "putting listeners on the air" requesting songs.
Some feel this is engaging and connects one on one.
Except for the person calling cares. It's annoying to everyone else.

I agree, a REALLY small percentage actually call your station and request songs.
They just like to hear themselves on the air. The rest of your listeners don't call radio stations
and have a life.

I would like to believe that simply returning to the basics will bring success, but as stated earlier
these are wayyyy different times.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I am enjoying this conversation. I'm an "old timer" who did this several years back and I have had some time to try to train myself to listen as a civilian, not as an insider pro. I have finally learned to talk again where people who don't know me do not look at me and ask: Do you work in radio?

I've done my best to press out the wrinkles.

HERE IS MY QUESTION.

Years ago we would run 12 to 16 minutes of commercials per hour.... typically all 60s, seldom a 30. We would spread them out evenly through the hour. Try to never "double spot". (Are you old enough to remember that term?)

I thought Stop Sets came about because early automation machines that had timers on them that looked like they were built by Maytag for a washing machine were not smart like computers, so the industry began bunching up clusters of commercials. Then came satellite feeds and the term "stop set" came into our lives.

I always thought Stop-Sets were some kind of a Faustian-deal-with-the-devil that were lousy programming but mechanically essential.

I read this conversation and realize that most of you would consider 12 to 16 commercials evenly spaced during the hour to be 'clutter'.

So, here is my question: are Stop-Sets good programming or simply a kludge, a work-around that is taken for granted today and considered the superior way to program?

Are there any articles or books reporting on good studies where average listeners (not jocks) were surveyed on this subject?

I'm not going to start any arguments on this topic. I'm just curious.... and maybe horribly out of step.

 

[allenv]

Something else is the lost art of the live spot or tagging a commercial with a live read for today's special.As much as I hate to admit a lot of listeners turn the dial when the commercials come on anyway.Again we think some things are bad radio when most listeners don't think anything of it.That's what makes it fun you guys all have great but different ideas but the common thread is we all love radio.

Allen

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

Something else is the lost art of the live spot or tagging a commercial with a live read for today's special.As much as I hate to admit a lot of listeners turn the dial when the commercials come on anyway.

I could be talked into getting into an argument on this issue.

In good radio, commercials are considered part of the programming.

A good broadcaster knows that good listeners tune in if you provide good commercials. Useful commercials.

I once worked for a unique broadcaster. He had rules about ad copy. If you came in with ad copy that wasn't "news" for the listener, he turned down the order..... well, he sent you back for new copy.

Not yelling and screaming, not a lot of echo. Not the same commercial for 6 months with no copy change. In this day of the Internet and the TV, why does anyone still subscribe to the newspaper? After church today my wife drug me off to the shopping center before we went home because Macy's advertised a shoe sale! Good radio commercials are really little newscasts. Do you run a 7:30 A.M. newscast and run the same news copy everyday for six months? Come Tuesday or Wednesday this week, the newspaper will arrive with news of some other items on sale.

Radio is not doing that for my wife, so she doesn't listen anymore. I can remember a time when radio did that for her.

 

[XTalker]

Some great points here .. and some that are off track. The original question is about how the station would be different if there were no ratings! Not your dream station.

I do remember double-spotting on a top 40 station in the 60s. As GoatRodeoCowboy says, you looked at the program log for the hour, spread the commercials evenly then added a second commercial, evenly until you hit 18. I do believe there was a FCC limit in those days - 18 minutes an hour and you could go over a certain number of hours a week. Political didn't count!

No Ratings?

I suspect the idea of more commercal breaks would happen. I do think there would be more remotes (they make good money and if you do them right, help expose the station).

What about news and service outside of morning drive? Most stations dropped it because of playing to the ratings rather than to the listener.

Would you say your call letters 50 times an hour?

Would you promote and image the station the way you do today?

Would you worry about where the stop set fell in the hour?

Back in the days right after double spotting, we clustered commercials in groups of three and four, the played two or three songs back to back. The only concern about what time the break ran was when your competitor was running his breaks! We always tried to be early - let then tune away to the other guy - we knew he would run a commecial soon and the button pusher would be right back!

 

[12 In a Row]

The common thread here is, "back in the day."

It's the 21st century, how would you program a station in 2008?
Playing 2 spots, 2 or 3 songs, 2 or 3 spots, wash-rinse-repeat won't cut it anymore.

Commericial radio remotes are a HUGE tune out.

Dropping news on a music station outside of morning drive is two fold.
1. the cost outweighed the return
2. became irrelevant
Besides, playing to the ratings IS playing to the listeners.

With all the choices today, I hope some wiz kids will help reinvent radio.
Going down the same path or returning the the good ole days will certainly spell doom to the industry.

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

I hope some wiz kids will help reinvent radio. Going down the same path or returning the the good ole days will certainly spell doom to the industry.

I don't know what your definition of 'whiz kids' is, but I agree with you and offer this addition to your vision: The team of whiz kids needs a couple of salty ol' gray-beards mixed in. The voice of experience says: "We used to do this and this is why we did it." And the mature whiz kid says: "This is what you were trying to accomplish. That is the result we need to achieve today." And the young, brimming with piss, vinegar and talent say: "Oh, if that is our goal, THIS is how we get that done. We didn't understand the goal!"

After that conversation goes around the circle a few times, getting tuned and sand-papered smoothed each time around, a few really great ideas fall into place. A lot of really crummy ideas will result also. Genius is the ability to recognize which is which.

We are not the only industry that has trouble with this process. Have you gone shopping for a coffee maker lately? Have you ever purchased one, taken it home, and found that it knows how to make good, drinkable coffee? If you have, share the name and model number with me.

 

[virgilstreetnc]

I've been following this thread, and have debated on whether to post my two cents. I typically don't post on this forum as most of it seems to be defensive radio guys with a sour taste for the business. Hopefully that won't be the case here.

If you aren't going for ratings, then why waste the time putting a station on the air? Did you mean if you didn't have to worry about income or corporate pressure? That would make more sense. If I'm taking the time to put a format together, I'd like to know that more than just my friends are listening.

We haven't gone on the air with our new format yet, but we will within the next two weeks. We will be putting on heavy local news in a town with a newspaper printed only twice a week. We will be playing minimal music of just a few songs per hour. We will also be using only one-spot breaks to keep the programming moving.

And I agree with both goat rodeo and Allens previous posts about cliche commercials. Commercials should add to the programming, not take away from it. Hopefully we won't be using all those spot cliches in our commercials.

While we're in too small of an area to get ratings, we are looking for as many listeners as possible. In a small town, listenership is validation that you are giving your community what it wants.

Feel free to critique, but please keep in mind, we have on air employees to pay, as well as bills, so we are a commercial radio station. If we can't get listeners for advertisers, then we can be the most creative station in the country but not be able to pay our employees or bills. No silver spoons here.

 

[XTalker]

If you aren't going for ratings, then why waste the time putting a station on the air? Did you mean if you didn't have to worry about income or corporate pressure? That would make more sense. If I'm taking the time to put a format together, I'd like to know that more than just my friends are listening.

You may have missed the point of the original question. It was not about programming a station and not trying to get ratings .. it was what if ratings didn't exist, how would your station be different. The question grew out of several ratings discussions during which people participating were critical of the methodology and ratings in general.

The only reason for going back in time was that very few markets had ratings of any type at that time, and stations were different.

You see, I believe the real goal of any radio station is to attract listeners, sell advertising, and make a profit.

Several have pointed out that one really big commercial block is a turn off to listeners. However stations do it because Aribtron counts quarter hours - so try to win three and give up the fourth one seems to be the reasoning behind long music sweeps and all the commercials jammed into one or two breaks!

So again, the question - if you didn't have to be concerned with Arbitron (or other) ratings methodology, how would your station be different.

IMHO, a well done remote is not a turn off.

 

[XTalker]

While we're in too small of an area to get ratings, we are looking for as many listeners as possible. In a small town, listenership is validation that you are giving your community what it wants.

Feel free to critique, but please keep in mind, we have on air employees to pay, as well as bills, so we are a commercial radio station. If we can't get listeners for advertisers, then we can be the most creative station in the country but not be able to pay our employees or bills. No silver spoons here.

Virgilstreetnc, don't confuse attracting listeners with attracting ratings! Ratings are simply the current way for corporate radio to sell it's audience to advertisers. Forgive me, but back in the day, before most of us had ratings, we had people on our staffs who could actually sell radio advertising.

You are on the right track with your format ideas for a small town. It is the one thing that can set you apart from the hundreds of radio signals that might penetrate your area. People will listen, and they will respond to your advertisers messages.

Good luck with it!

 

[ZAX Double J]

Well I have to jusmp in the foray. I agree with Allen's comments. I do see the other points of view too. But to the neysayers to me and Allen I ask this question: if radio stays the way it is now then how do you expect to KEEP what listeners you have? Study after study shows that radio listenership is dropping like a rock and moving to the "alternative" sources then I ask you what can this industry do to turn that around. I don't think playing the same 200 songs until the listener pukes is a way. I don't think not having any news outside of the morning drive is the way, time checks may or may not be irrelevant, but you'd be surprised at how many people who don't own or use a clock or even a watch and their car clocks are inevitably wrong since they never bothered to set them. So if you say they'e no good now I'd disagree. There HAS to be some form of change in this industry in order for it to survive. The current system does not work here in the 21st century and maybe the "old" system me and Allen talk about may not either, but I believe it is worth at least trying. The "new whiz kids" don't really CARE about radio all they want is their whatever the latest gadget to access the internet and chat and play the music they want to hear. There's no incentives for the younger crowd to go into radio as there once were because of automation and corprate's view on the lowly part-timer, but many of you here (myself included) got our start in this business as a part-timer. What is the industry doing to encourage the younger generations to get into radio? All they want is to make a ton of money doing nothing i.e no hard work to earn it.

I feel that if there were no rating system as Arbitron that radio would be more entertaining, informative, live and local. Also rather than the station being x number of miles away from it's city of license it would BE in the city of license. Move the studios back to the communities you serve that way you'd be closer to the people you're actually trying to serve. You cannot effectively do that hundereds of miles away. There needs to be an efective way to train the younger sales people on the fine art of radio sales. Have the veteran radio sales people teach or mentor the younger sales people because most radio salespeople today don't know how to sell radio. Even in programming the "old timers" (those before the ratings system) would be a wealth of knowledge for the current PDs. Many of those who have left the business due to corporateization should be reconsidered and given jobs back in the industry. Granted many may not really NEED to be back, but those good ones who want back in should be. As to consultant's well yes there are some good ones and there are bad ones too, but overall they have been bad for the industry as a whole and is one of the reasons this industry is in the state that it is in. Corporate thought it was going to make a boatload of money quick in radio, but it is realizing that in the short-term that was true, but in the long term it wasn't such a good idea. Radio is sort of like a fine wine it gets better with time and these younger CEOs want to make it rich NOW not years down the road.

I too don't know it all and these are just my opinions, but in my 22 years in this business I have seen it deteriorate and degenerate into the mess that it is today. No I'm not a disgrunteled emplyee because I still work in radio and I realise it is all about making a profit because it IS a busness just like any other. I DO however have a passion for radio that is in my blood (must be all the RF radiation) and I love this business I guess too much, but unless it changes for the better then I see a very gloomy path ahead.

 

[surfdude]

This topic could go on forever. My last thought...

The majority of stations are understaffed. PD's are taxed doing air shifts and overseeing several stations, and there's not enough jocks and support staff to do great local radio.

Most stations just get by...and that's not good enough. Chalk it up to Wall Street, greedy owners, or people in charge who just don't know what they're doing. (There are always a few exceptions)

 

[allenv]

Double J, again you are a much better writer than I am and I think you said it all well.Surf, I agree this could go on forever but you bring up a very important point.If there was a moment when things really started to take a turn for the worse in my opinion was when 3 or 4 stations became grouped in one building and one"staff" was used to operate 2 or 3 stations.One or two of those stations always seems to suffer.It's simple, you don't have enough people to pay the proper amount of attention to each individual station.When it became corporation A instead of the individual station standing on its own merits radio suffers in my opinion.Each station
needs a seperate identity to really have a fair chance to succeed.There is nothing wrong with stations owned by the same company competing hard against each other and alot of that is gone these days.It also creates a totem pole effect where one station is shown more love than another in the building.I personally think its done alot of damage to radio in general.I may love my brother down the hall with the other station but I want my station to do everything we can do to kick the other stations butt.I like to have tunnel vision on my station.Thats not to say I won't help my brother and be a good co- worker but this kissy huggy stuff among stations is watering down everyone involved in my opinion.

Allen