In 2011, HD's slow death continues

[in3media_be1]

Some posts from this thread have been moved to Take It Outside


http://boards.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=181305.msg1584196#msg1584196

 

[radiogooroo]

You'd think a foolproof digital delay system would be part of HD radio off the shelf. But apparently it isn't. How stupid is that?

The quality of the HD networking has a lot to do with it. Not surprisingly, you need good switches and good links between studio and transmitter site to make digital audio work right. Everything needs to be provisioned correctly.

 

[radiogooroo]

Gooroo - I respectfully note your experience with HD. If you're not having delay problems or interference complaints, those are good things.

My response would be: interference complaints are a case-by-case situation. Your frequency allocation and market apparently luck out - you've got enough elbow room there so your HD isn't causing any problems. But where the interference exists: it's bad, and it's real. Don't just take WYSL's word for it. Ask Local Oscillator about HIS first-adjacent HD problems. And there are many, many others. As far as "listener complaints" about interference: of course you haven't received any, nor would you - ever. That's the cynicism behind the FCC "policies" about addressing HD interference - no listener will ever complain because they lack the technical expertise to identify the source or type. They just tune out when the noise is too bad, assuming "radio sucks, it's all staticky." Bad for the industry? You bet, even when HD interferors
skate on stepping on neighbors.

The average listener thinks radio sucks because XM mounted a HUGE multi-year advertising campaign in its early days that basically told everyone that radio sucked. It didn't improve their fortunes, but it did tarnish radio, or at least the public perception of radio. Practically everyone still uses it. XM's campaign was both a brilliant success and a failure.

The average listener also thinks Bose makes the very best audio products on Earth.

Why? Marketing. Great marketing! Part of Bose's marketing strategy is price fixing. Every retailer HAS to sell their products for the same price as every other retailer. There's also a 100% markup built into this pricing strategy. Retailers (and commissioned salespeople) make more money when they sell Bose than when they sell any other brand. The $700 Acoustimass system at Best Buy cost them $350. Is it any wonder that retailers try really hard to make the public believe Bose is superior?

This is just my own tacky opinion, but I don't think anyone who thinks Bose is the best there is would be qualified to identify interference or would even care about moderate amounts of it. These average listeners also build their personal music libraries with file sharing services these days, and are perfectly content to listen to low bitrate MP3s of dubious origin.

That's not to say that we shouldn't strive to produce a high quality product. I know I do.

Getting back to the original point of the thread: HD Radio is failing to make any significant impact for one reason and one reason only - the RADIO INDUSTRY DOESN'T SUPPORT OR MARKET IT PROPERLY!

Radio is a very effective marketing engine. We've sold an awful lot of Bose crap. We could sell this too, if we had the inclination. We don't. At least the right people don't. I have never once heard a radio advertisement for HD Radio that would entice the "average listener" to go out and buy one. There are nebulous promises of additional choices, but no details about what those choices might be. Stations could run effective promos for their own HD2 channels, but the program directors and general managers who are responsible for the ratings and revenue on the analog signals would prefer that NOBODY DISCOVER THEIR HD2. I've had this conversation with several PDs. None of them want their own HD subchannels to be successful because they perceive that success as lost listenership for them, potentially the loss of their ratings bonus and eventually their job. That's the way the average program director views HD Radio. It's a threat.

Not that I usually advocate for corporate control of anything, but if HD Radio is going to succeed, corporate is going to have to either take control of it or incentivize it. Corporate either has to steal airtime from their program directors to effectively promote the HD2 and HD3 channels or make their PDs and GMs want to promote HD effectively themselves. If I were Dan Mason, or Farid Suleman, or Lew Dickey or John Hogan I'd make HD2 the X Prize of radio. I'd offer a $50,000 bonus ($25k each) to the first PD/GM combo that gets an HD2 station to crack a 1.0 share.

The only thing holding HD Radio back is radio itself. Despite the technical shortcomings, both perceived and real, it has potential. I will admit that the potential is slipping away into the abyss of technological irrelevance, which is a shame after so much has been spent to build out the infrastructure to support IBOC.

At this point, I don't see HD Radio ever going away. Data services completely unrelated to the host stations have already made their way onto the HD platform, and if nothing else, HD will essentially offer digital SCA type services.

The key to HD Radio's success is getting traditional radio types out of the way, or incentivizing them properly.

 

[tomservo]

gooroo I can certainly agree with that. I've always thought the HD promos were pretty lousy advertisements for the service. What may drive more sales is putting a known factor (AM talker, for example) onto one of the company owned FM HD2s and promoting the bejeebus out of it on the AM station. Clear Channel is doing that in my market with their sickly AM talker (sickly because it's 1 kW in poor ground conductivity and gets hammered by foreign interference at night). They constantly promote the ability to hear the AM station in 'crystal clear sound' with an HD radio. And while the FM HD transmissions are spotty to say the least, where it DOES work, it sounds great and puts a signal over probably 400% more people than the nighttime AM service does.

People may buy a radio to get their dose of Rush or Coast to Coast, and then may discover the other commercial free channels on other stations, and then can help spread the word.

 

[Savage]

"No highs? No Lows? Must be BOSE...."

 

[KB1OKL]

Gooroo - I respectfully note your experience with HD. If you're not having delay problems or interference complaints, those are good things.

My response would be: interference complaints are a case-by-case situation. Your frequency allocation and market apparently luck out - you've got enough elbow room there so your HD isn't causing any problems. But where the interference exists: it's bad, and it's real. Don't just take WYSL's word for it. Ask Local Oscillator about HIS first-adjacent HD problems. And there are many, many others. As far as "listener complaints" about interference: of course you haven't received any, nor would you - ever. That's the cynicism behind the FCC "policies" about addressing HD interference - no listener will ever complain because they lack the technical expertise to identify the source or type. They just tune out when the noise is too bad, assuming "radio sucks, it's all staticky." Bad for the industry? You bet, even when HD interferors
skate on stepping on neighbors.

The average listener thinks radio sucks because XM mounted a HUGE multi-year advertising campaign in its early days that basically told everyone that radio sucked. It didn't improve their fortunes, but it did tarnish radio, or at least the public perception of radio. Practically everyone still uses it. XM's campaign was both a brilliant success and a failure.

The average listener also thinks Bose makes the very best audio products on Earth.

Why? Marketing. Great marketing! Part of Bose's marketing strategy is price fixing. Every retailer HAS to sell their products for the same price as every other retailer. There's also a 100% markup built into this pricing strategy. Retailers (and commissioned salespeople) make more money when they sell Bose than when they sell any other brand. The $700 Acoustimass system at Best Buy cost them $350. Is it any wonder that retailers try really hard to make the public believe Bose is superior?

This is just my own tacky opinion, but I don't think anyone who thinks Bose is the best there is would be qualified to identify interference or would even care about moderate amounts of it. These average listeners also build their personal music libraries with file sharing services these days, and are perfectly content to listen to low bitrate MP3s of dubious origin.

That's not to say that we shouldn't strive to produce a high quality product. I know I do.

Getting back to the original point of the thread: HD Radio is failing to make any significant impact for one reason and one reason only - the RADIO INDUSTRY DOESN'T SUPPORT OR MARKET IT PROPERLY!

Radio is a very effective marketing engine. We've sold an awful lot of Bose crap. We could sell this too, if we had the inclination. We don't. At least the right people don't. I have never once heard a radio advertisement for HD Radio that would entice the "average listener" to go out and buy one. There are nebulous promises of additional choices, but no details about what those choices might be. Stations could run effective promos for their own HD2 channels, but the program directors and general managers who are responsible for the ratings and revenue on the analog signals would prefer that NOBODY DISCOVER THEIR HD2. I've had this conversation with several PDs. None of them want their own HD subchannels to be successful because they perceive that success as lost listenership for them, potentially the loss of their ratings bonus and eventually their job. That's the way the average program director views HD Radio. It's a threat.

Not that I usually advocate for corporate control of anything, but if HD Radio is going to succeed, corporate is going to have to either take control of it or incentivize it. Corporate either has to steal airtime from their program directors to effectively promote the HD2 and HD3 channels or make their PDs and GMs want to promote HD effectively themselves. If I were Dan Mason, or Farid Suleman, or Lew Dickey or John Hogan I'd make HD2 the X Prize of radio. I'd offer a $50,000 bonus ($25k each) to the first PD/GM combo that gets an HD2 station to crack a 1.0 share.

The only thing holding HD Radio back is radio itself. Despite the technical shortcomings, both perceived and real, it has potential. I will admit that the potential is slipping away into the abyss of technological irrelevance, which is a shame after so much has been spent to build out the infrastructure to support IBOC.

At this point, I don't see HD Radio ever going away. Data services completely unrelated to the host stations have already made their way onto the HD platform, and if nothing else, HD will essentially offer digital SCA type services.

The key to HD Radio's success is getting traditional radio types out of the way, or incentivizing them properly.

This is all very nice but we all know that the biggest players in radio have been behind IBOC since day one, The HD alliance has some of the biggest players going in radio and they have been propping up ibiquity all along. How much advertising has there been for HD over the past few years? It has been incessant. NPR is also a huge player and they have done everything they can do to promote it including giving away radios. You can say all you want that radio doesn't promote it but it has... ad nauseum, how long should radio promote the Edsel of the 90's? Enough already, no one wants it except FOR some big players in radio. FM HD is going nowhere fast because it doesn't work well and doesn't sound much if at all better than analog FM, AM HD? Forget it, it's junk.

 

[radiogooroo]

This is all very nice but we all know that the biggest players in radio have been behind IBOC since day one, The HD alliance has some of the biggest players going in radio and they have been propping up ibiquity all along. How much advertising has there been for HD over the past few years? It has been incessant. NPR is also a huge player and they have done everything they can do to promote it including giving away radios. You can say all you want that radio doesn't promote it but it has... ad nauseum, how long should radio promote the Edsel of the 90's? Enough already, no one wants it except FOR some big players in radio. FM HD is going nowhere fast because it doesn't work well and doesn't sound much if at all better than analog FM, AM HD? Forget it, it's junk.

All I'm saying is the "biggest players" do nothing to support it, despite running all the alliance ads, which are totally ineffective. I certainly wouldn't buy a Gizmotron 2.0 if all the ads said were "Buy the Gizmotron 2.0! It's even more gizmoey than the original Gizmotron!" That's practically all the alliance ads have ever said. They promise more radio stations, but don't say what those stations program.

There is zero buy-in at the local level. The local programmers and GMs are too afraid to lose listeners to their own HD channels.

Where I'm from, there are devoted Texas Country fans (Roger Creager, Miranda Lambert, Robert Earl Keen, etc.) A country station here could promote an HD2 station that played nothing but that and probably generate a decent niche audience. Promoting a new radio that delivers something but doesn't explain what won't sell anything.

I suspect most HD Radio sales to date are to NPR listeners.

 

[spunker88]

About the only advantage I see to HD radio was multiple stations in one. But to do that quality is sacrificed to the point that an online stream sounds just as good if not better. For me, anything that gets below 100kbps sounds low quality. Analog FM sounds great to me, on a decent system I'd say its hard to tell the difference between FM and a CD. With cell phone technology improving, people will just stream the station online wirelessly and not be bounded by the small HD coverage area, or even the analog coverage area for that matter.

The whole song tagging on phones/MP3 players advertised by HD radio could be done easily enough with analog.
-One way would be to incorporate it in with RDS so that the device can recognize the song title/artist and extract that text.
-Or getting the call letters of the station from RDS and the time from the device, and grabbing data from an online playlist.
-Another way would be to integrate Midomi.com/Shazam Music ID into the device. These services grab an audio sample several seconds long and send it to a server to match it to "known" audio, returning the song title/artist. If no internet is available on the device the raw audio clip could be saved to the device and the audio would be uploaded later when synced to a computer.

All of that could easily be done using analog FM with or without RDS.

 

[Savage]

Ummm.....gooroo, I have to respectfully dissent from your argument that HD's problems stem solely from marketing. I do absolutely agree with you that the promos have been lame and meaningless to most of their intended audience. I can readily see why local radio management is reluctant to dilute audience share by attacking themselves with well-programmed HD subs (as opposed to the usual crap that's on them.) That's common sense. You're a programmer. You know what happens: all you have to lose is a half- or quarter-point, enough to pull you down in the Arbitron in-demo ranker from 3d to 5th. Splat. You've just blown a half-mil in agency revenue because you don't get included in key buys any more.

You really think Mays or Dickey or Mason are dumb enough to "incentivize" a PD/GM with a $50,000 carrot to help the station drop $500K in revenue? I don't think so. (Then again....Mason, Mr. HD, might just be.....)

In any event, maybe the HD marketing has just been carpet-bombing hogwash - I'll grant you that (especially the earlier promos which were insultingly stupid.) But you can't dismiss the technical issues. I know you've had better luck than most, but the coverage and the interference and the dropouts and the lousy receivers and on and on and on....oy. You ARE the exception.

 

[radiogooroo]

Ummm.....gooroo, I have to respectfully dissent from your argument that HD's problems stem solely from marketing. I do absolutely agree with you that the promos have been lame and meaningless to most of their intended audience. I can readily see why local radio management is reluctant to dilute audience share by attacking themselves with well-programmed HD subs (as opposed to the usual crap that's on them.) That's common sense. You're a programmer. You know what happens: all you have to lose is a half- or quarter-point, enough to pull you down in the Arbitron in-demo ranker from 3d to 5th. Splat. You've just blown a half-mil in agency revenue because you don't get included in key buys any more.

You really think Mays or Dickey or Mason are dumb enough to "incentivize" a PD/GM with a $50,000 carrot to help the station drop $500K in revenue? I don't think so. (Then again....Mason, Mr. HD, might just be.....)

In any event, maybe the HD marketing has just been carpet-bombing hogwash - I'll grant you that (especially the earlier promos which were insultingly stupid.) But you can't dismiss the technical issues. I know you've had better luck than most, but the coverage and the interference and the dropouts and the lousy receivers and on and on and on....oy. You ARE the exception.

Well, if we're to believe all the "sky is falling" scenarios presented here, we're going to lose everyone to internet radio anyway. Might as well cannibalize your own product and keep the listeners in house because if you don't offer the listeners what they want, they're going to get it somewhere else. I'd rather listeners tune into my HD2 than a competing stream, Pandora or whatever.

Personally though, I don't believe this is a zero sum game. There have been plenty of sign ons where shares grow to accommodate two competitors in the space previously occupied by one station. There's one rock station in a market, and instead of its listenership decreasing when a new direct competitor comes on, the market's appetite for rock product grows and both stations succeed. I suspect this is partly due to word of mouth, and partly due to the increased marketing that comes with a sign on.

I wouldn't say there aren't technical issues. Many of the earlier radios were crap. I owned a few. I have a little Insignia walkman type radio now though that does a spectacular job of pulling in HD reliably, even plugged into the line in jack in my truck, and I live in the 'burbs a long way from the market's tower farm.

HD Radio works pretty darn well in much of the country. Here in class C land, where the stations are 100,000 watts and 2,000' AGL, it works very well. Twelve of the top 20 markets are more like where I am than where you are.

 

[local oscillator]

Savage is, as usual, on the money. Marketing of HD and programming of HD subchannels is abysmal, but if those were its only drawbacks, I wouldn't have a problem with HD at all. My concerns are 1) INTERFERENCE, and 2) the relatively small coverage areas of its rather fragile signals. Technically, the system flat out doesn't work; the greatest marketing and programming in the world isn't going to change that fact one whit.

And gooroo, you are the exception. Zone II Land, with its Class C sticks, elbow room on the dial, and concentrated areas of population surrounded by a whole lotta nothing, is about the only place where HD could work. Too many of us aren't in that situation. And AM HD doesn't work in ANY situation.

 

[flytrap]

I would be happy if the analog stations both AM and FM would fix their audio. Nobody seems to care what a station sounds like anymore unless its loud. We have stations in my area that are so loud that it gives you a headache. Distortion, disk jockeys sound like they are yelling even when they are not. boomy sound like they are eating the microphones. The CHR stations are just noisy to listen too. Todays CD's are recorded with too much compression. When the same songs are played over a radio station that also has too much compression, you wind up with something that is nearly unlistenable. The AM stations have stopped caring. I guess they don't think its worth the money since "nobody listens to AM anymore" Well they would if they would fix their 1943 East German transmitting equipment. In my town you've got some stations that are too loud, some are not loud enough, some have too much bass which gives it that growling fluttering sound, some have poor network feeds. I've heard both AM and FM stations that sound like they are being fed with very low bitrate internet audio. not much better than dial up with the swishy, underwater and scratchy treble. I don't remember radio ever sounding this bad back in the seventies when stations were still using tape machines and vinyl. The digital revolution seems have made some of them sound worse. Now you have people calling talk shows on cheap cellphones that you can't understand, and my biggest pet peeve. Broadcasting a football game over a cellphone, that has that muting effect that sounds like dead air when nobody is talking. the crowd noise and marching band cutting in and out and gurgling in the background. Thats my rant for the day.

 

[Play Freebird]

The whole song tagging on phones/MP3 players advertised by HD radio could be done easily enough with analog.
-One way would be to incorporate it in with RDS so that the device can recognize the song title/artist and extract that text.
-Or getting the call letters of the station from RDS and the time from the device, and grabbing data from an online playlist.
-Another way would be to integrate Midomi.com/Shazam Music ID into the device. These services grab an audio sample several seconds long and send it to a server to match it to "known" audio, returning the song title/artist. If no internet is available on the device the raw audio clip could be saved to the device and the audio would be uploaded later when synced to a computer.

All of that could easily be done using analog FM with or without RDS.

See: http://www.jump2go.com/

This is how the iPod Nano does its RDS-based tagging. The idea was developed by Seattle broadcast engineer Allen Hartle, more background is here:

http://www.jump2go.com/history-2/

Remember, RDS is an open standard -- unlike proprietary, locked-down, expensive HD Radio technology. That's one reason why the worldwide adoption of RDS has far surpassed IBOC.