in talking about the changes at wls-fm

[tce]

This thread has taken an interesting trajectory, except for the guy who was re-directed from the "Disgruntled Posters Board." While I am the world's foremost authority on my own opinion, I would be reluctant to contradict DE in a fact-based radio discussion.

 

[KFodor]

i was hoping someone could comment or give an answer as to why oldies has morphed into a Male Oriented white boy t-40 rock type of format with, all but eliminating Black t-40 music of the era.. not all black music from the era was disco, so WHO decided this was going to be what the format IS going forward? as i said before i think it makes Classic Hits now not as fun without Black top-40 in the mix...

There are two forms of "oldies" emerging, WhoDat...

One is a rock based format that does, as you have observed, focused on the rock product of the 80's and eliminates 80's based pop and R & B. This is based, as David Edwardo mentions on music research which indicates the rock partisans don't want to hear the pop and R & B dance tunes. Consider this the new "Classic Rock" format.

The other is a more "pop" based oldies format which does include some of the pop and R & B 80's tunes. This is where the Michael Jackson product went...though it does not yet include the early hip hop and rap commonly called "old school" music. Some day it may, but the research I've been privy to seems to indicate the audience isn't quite there yet. A lot of that music is moving more to "oldies" than to "Classic Rock" formats.

A word of caution, though. Just because a song goes to #1 back in the day doesn't necessarily mean it has staying power over the decades. That's what we saw in the oldies format. Only time and research tells that. Nor can I make a judgement as to why a station in Chicago or pick your favorite city does this, and not that...

 

[davideduardo]

While I am the world's foremost authority on my own opinion..

I love that!

 

[tce]

Well, I don't much care for internet shorthand, but I'm starting to recognize a type found on most boards:

WFAOOO
World's Foremost Authority On One's Own Opinion

 

[Tom Wells]

YMCA is an excellent example of a song that should be played because it is so polarizing!
The whole gay/disco/black feeling turned into a demolition event here in Chicago.

First, disco was not "urban" or "r&b" music. Most disco did not get played on African American targeted stations unless it was urban first and dance later. Disco was Travolta, the Bee Gees and Casablanca Records, not an extension of Motown.

The "gay" thing is a stereotype. I'm not going there.

And, usually, songs like "Y.M.C.A" are simply not played due to high negatives. Some people may dislike them more than others, but if the song is not played on a particular station, it is because the song... not the genre... is going to do more harm than good.

I think there are some PDs who are doing their best, as always, to make the hsitory of music so much simpler for listeners.

Radio stations are not museums or history books. Music stations are entertainment sources, not classrooms. Listeners don't go to gold-based stations to learn about music... they go to hear songs they know and like and which make them feel good.

From a long time back, WLS was ridiculed in Chicago's black neighborhoods as "White-Like-Snow".

Gee, and for a long time WLS was the market's #1 station. Not every station can appeal to every age, ethnic group or subset of the population. If you played Beatles, Four Seasons and Beach Boys in the 60's, you were not going to get many Black listeners, no matter how many Four Tops and Superemes songs you also played. Get over it.

Disco was most certainly NOT Travolta. It was Giorgio Moreoder,etc. Before that it was George Mc Crae with "Rock Your Baby"....
And it was VERY polarizing even as it began in 1975, to "intrude" upon white boy territory.

I don't need to "get over" anything, but I will NOT have anyone rewrite history for me.
I'm a white guy, 'K?
And my roots in Gary, Indiana permit me to see things from multiple perspectives.

WLS is, and always has been slanted "away from" songs from black artists. There. I've said it. I LIKE WLS very much, but they're
"white" enonugh to hurt. Where in the world are some blankety-blankin' Bo Diddley songs, fer pete's sake?

 

[davideduardo]

Disco was most certainly NOT Travolta. It was Giorgio Moreoder,etc. Before that it was George Mc Crae with "Rock Your Baby"....

If you are talking about specific songs, we go back to "Rock the Boat" and "The Latin Hustle" at the beginning of the US disco era.

But you miss the point that the genre or trend or fad (your pick) is best typified by Saturday Night Fever, it's music and its star and by the label that was more synonymous with disco than perhaps any other.

And it was VERY polarizing even as it began in 1975, to "intrude" upon white boy territory.

It was not polarizing. A few songs slipped in and then a few more. But as the percentage increased to the exclusion of many rock-leaning CHR songs, there was a limited backlash. I say "limited" because it was the stations that "didn't disco" that made the stink and used the whole thing as a promotional stunt.

I don't need to "get over" anything, but I will NOT have anyone rewrite history for me.

Nobody is rewriting anything. What I did do is question why you considered disco to be "urban" since "urban" is a term for r&b/Black music. That's not disco, which, if it has any real roots, has European origins.

Georgio Moroder, who you name, is Italian, started doing disco-like stuff in Germany and then sold his Oasis label to... ready for this?... Casablanca Records.

WLS is, and always has been slanted "away from" songs from black artists. T

You are looking at a "glass is half empty" thing. I simply see that WLS, in an era when the huge coverage was of sales value, programmed to a combination of Chicago and the Indiana, Illinois, Wisconsin and Michigan area they covered day and night. The r&b influence in Chicago was balance with the rest of the coverage area and what you got was the sound of WLS.

 

[Tom Wells]

You can easily say it was not polarizing. I lived here during those years and can say authoritatively that it was
indeed most polarizing.

Unless we hear "Boogie Ooogie Ooogie" as often as we hear some awful over crisped Zepp tune, then we're being steered by some PD with a white boy slant.

 

[cyberdad]

So how "white" was WLS? I decided to do a little unscientific small-sample research. I looked at four random "Silver Dollar Surveys" in five year increments beginning with October 1960 and ending in February 1975. The first three surveys were 40 songs each. The 1975 survey was 30 songs. So the grand total sample size was 150 songs. 34 were by black artists....which comes out to just under 23%.

What I found interesting was the variance among the surveys. The 1960 survey contained 14 "black" songs (35%), the most of any of the surveys. 1965 (June) had exactly three (7.5%).

My guess is that when it began as a music station, a lot of the record sales data, etc. was coming from the city. Then, perhaps, sales data and other research was also incorporating data from the suburbs and even possibly the then 54-county TSA. The '65 survey may also have been an aberration from the standpoint of the "British Invasion" still going full force.

But then again, so was Motown!

 

[Tom Wells]

I must modify an earlier post where I may have dissed Led Zeppelin.
I can find no fault with Zep. Just with stations and formats that would burn out tunes by overplay.
There is no awful Zep tune, but there is burn.

 

[davideduardo]

Unless we hear "Boogie Ooogie Ooogie" as often as we hear some awful over crisped Zepp tune, then we're being steered by some PD with a white boy slant.

The difference is that a lot of "Zep" songs test well, while Taste of Honey generally does not.

So the reason you hear some of those songs and don't hear others is the desire by listeners to hear the songs today.

 

[tce]

David: I have come to a better understanding of how testing gets certain songs into rapid rotation. I am wondering why this practice is apparently a successful programming practice, when, for certain listeners it drives us to the pre-set button and eventually to stop returning to the "offending" station. I first noticed the effect in the mid-90s, when 3WS in Pittsburgh seemed to be playing "You've Lost That Lovin' Feeling" and "Help Me Rhonda" every other hour. In time, I stopped listening altogether. (I will admit that quality of their on-air talent no longer appealed to me.) Is it that most people do not listen long enough to sense the burn-out factor - or do some people listen more intently, so that the repetition is an irritant?

For me, the salvation has been the availability of sources such as HyLitRadio.com - and there are apparently similar choices for Chicago. HyLit has an ample playlist of a genre that does not find a home on very many stations. They also have, of course, some other very appealing qualities: there is clearly some programming of their rotation that appeals to me, the segues are super tight (echoing that of the late sixties WFIL) and they throw in some of the greatest jingles of the era. Their recent addition of tabloid style newscasts is sort of fun. Charlie Tuna is a superb talent, but his breaks a pretty generic and don't connect much to the rest of the format.

Even there, sometimes a song will trigger: "Again?" But something about the mix keeps me from fleeing.

In summary, is there research that shows why some people tolerate the repetition of "good testers" and some can't?

 

[b344077]

I find this whole discussion fascinating. I grew up when Rock was just starting. As a young guy in radio, playlists were tied to record sales, jukebox selections and requests (yes requests). In high school we built a pirate radio station in Stickney listened to WIND, WJJD And WGES plus read Billboard. I then went on to working radio while in college, part time at couple of stations including KOMA and KLIF (these were monsters back then). There I learned about music selection and how this was becoming sophisticated. When I got mydegree I went on to work for Arbitron and dug deeper. The process still becoming more complex. You know, I think it was great fun to be a young guy in Stickney listening to WGES and Big Bill Hill on WOPA and then driving into the city to buy some 45's and break new ground then what is going on now.

 

[briancraig]

The question I still have is why were the tastes of WLS listeners so "white?"

Chicago was a big city in 1965, probably more diverse than Los Angeles in those days but KHJ played lots of black music.

Top 40 stations in the South could be almost 50% R & B in the 1960s. Birmingham was probably the most segregated city in the country, yet WSGN played lots of
R&B crossovers.

WLS was a monster success so I'm not saying the powers that be did not program to the tastes of their audience just wondering why Chicago unlike New York, Los Angeles, or even Knoxville preferred such a "white bread" playlist.

 

[KFodor]

If you read radio textbooks these days (the ones taught in college level programs), they would have you believe that Urban Contemporary radio was the direct outgrowth of disco music in the late 70's.

This might have a grain of fact if you're talking about the modern day format. Still, I have always considered that statement highly questionable.

Not when you consider the successes of the WVON's, WAOK's and other Urban R & B AM stations back in the day. Then, consider the fact that Urban radio is said to have originated on FM on WDAO (then at 107.7 mhz) in Dayton, Ohio in 1964. They drew thousands of area young people, both black and white, to the FM dial with its deliberate mix of crossover soul hits from the Motown acts, plus the R & B hitmakers from Atlantic and Stax records, well before the phenomena happened in other cities. By the early 70's, a large majority of Dayton area teens were listening to FM...and 'Day-o", as it was called then, has been credited by the local programmers then as the reason.

So, when you say disco created U/C, I will accept it in the loosest sense, but question somewhat the premise.

 

[davideduardo]

In summary, is there research that shows why some people tolerate the repetition of "good testers" and some can't?

Most significant stations do proprietary research, but it of course can not be quoted.

The repetition of songs is based on a combination of factors. First, how well liked a song is. Second, the amount of time the average listener spends with the station and the medium. Third, the experience and skills of the PD.

WABC in New York in the 60's played the #1 song every 90 minutes; it was just the right rotation. There was no indication that it was played too often.

CHRs today play powers about 110 times a week... every 90 minutes.

With gold based formats, the rotations have to do with how many available songs there are that do not drive significant segments of the audience away. Most classic hits stations find between 600 and 800 songs. They then plot out the play patters so the most liked get played more often, and the least liked of the passable songs gets played less... and that is what determines frequency of play.

Even when test respondents are recruited based on liking a type of music as opposed to listeners to a particular station, comments on repetition are not common. In fact, the biggest kind of comment heard is "I don't hear my favorite song often enough". Repetition complaints only come with a playlist that is overly long because it contains a lot of low scoring songs; in this case, "repetition" means "they often play songs I don't like" because one single play of a bad song is too many!

 

[davideduardo]

So, when you say disco created U/C, I will accept it in the loosest sense, but question somewhat the premise.

I am more of a skeptic than you are on this subject.

CHR is Top 40. Simply, R&R decided they wanted a chart that did not share terminology with other publications, and they renamed the format.

R&B is "Urban" but the causes for the change of name are more subtle. And they involve some history. R&B was a 60's term for a format, although the R&B name survives as being a component of the music on an urban station. But in the early 50's, when African American stations began to be created, the music was called "race music". Then the format was called "Negro" or "Negro programming".

When I became a staff member at WJMO in Cleveland in 1958, the station was calling itself, for sales and marketing purposes, "rhythm and blues" or just "r&b" but they included the "... for Cleveland's Negro audience" in the sales material.

As the broadening influences of things like the very crossover Motown sounds came and went, Black targeted stations became more than r&b. Eventually, the name for the format became Urban.

The names given the format have some strong parallels to the status of the Black population, the civil rights movement and some more-than-appropriate changes away from potential slurs or racist terms. But I don't see disco, mirror balls and polyester being an influential part of that metamorphosis.

 

[cspotrun]

eduardo, do you want to claim "Reasearch" is INFALLIBLE? or just a money making venture for consultants who would like to sell the idea as such... i've seen alot of reasearch, and when it comes to formats like classic hits or whatever you want to call it, in the end ALL reasearch is still a judgement call by the PD.

 

[davideduardo]

eduardo, do you want to claim "Reasearch" is INFALLIBLE? or just a money making venture for consultants who would like to sell the idea as such... i've seen alot of reasearch, and when it comes to formats like classic hits or whatever you want to call it, in the end ALL reasearch is still a judgement call by the PD.

First, consultants generally don't do research. While they may recommend specific research, at most stations regular music research is a regular, budgeted and ongoing procedure, just like transmitter maintenance or filing tax returns.

Of course some research is bad. It can use the wrong recruit specifications, it can be poorly recruited, there can be a song list with missing or wrong songs, and the implementation can be influenced by personal preferences.

But a good programmer knows not only how to use the research, but how to supervise the project from recruit specifications to execution to implementation.

In the end, all programming is a judgment call. The programmers skills, knowledge and "gut feel" all combine with various tools like research, music scheduling software, the promotion budget, etc. to "make" a radio station.

But a comparable programmer without research will be beaten by one with it.

 

[radiorob2.0]

WABC in New York in the 60's played the #1 song every 90 minutes; it was just the right rotation. There was no indication that it was played too often.

I had read it was a tad quicker. The number one song rotated every seventy minutes, number two every eighty minutes, number three every ninety minutes and number four every 100 minutes. WLS adopted the same rotation with the arrival of John Gehron and "Musicradio". A short TSL and large cume made the quick rotation possible. Though it had to be hell for an air personality when a song like "You Light Up My Life" became number one for two months.

 

[Tom Wells]

I cannot speak for WhoDat, but I DO think I have some of the same questions/reservations about testing.

"Football" (let's assume American USA football here)...NFL style football does not try to be "all things to all people".
They DO what they can to make their product appeal to those who like the product.
They're not actively trying to "recruit" new football fans to enhance their bottom line.

Radio, on the other hand, when testing music, would seem to find a cross section of the population that
may neither be an active listener, or for that matter, "actively" appreciate music.

If you wanted to appeal to sports fans, you'd canvass sports fans, right?
So why does ( music) radio not seek for testing those who:
1. Identify themselves as active listeners
2. ditto ditto as music enthusiasts
3. Those with open active minds and good memories rather than those with a more closed mind and little retention for content?

It's easy to program a fishbowl for a goldfish...they can't remember very much for very long.
It's also easy enough to program people to behave like goldfish. But how can you sleep at night if that's your job?