Indianapolis Arbitrend

[qskyradio]

Aside from the normal problems encountered with the current diary system ($3 premiums given to those willing to fill out a diary), let's remember that Arbitron cannot reach cell-phone only homes. The numbers of people without landlines is staggering, and is growing day by day. In some studies I've seen, as high as 40-45% of 18-34 year olds are without landlines - and even higher amongst higher qualitative listeners. And Arbitron cannot reach these people. I'm wondering more each day how we can view Arbitron as an effective measuring stick for real listening habits in 2008. In the not-too-distant future, web usage and streaming data may very-well provide a more accurate gauge for buyers looking for a realistic measurement of audiences.

 

[Marv-L.A.]

Does anyone happen to know how much longer WZPL remained a top 40 station after WHHH came along in 1991?

I know that lots of top 40 stations started bailing out of the format after Emmis's KPWR (Power 106) dethroned Rick Dees & KIIS-FM here in the spring of 1987 here in LA within a year of being launched.

By the time Hot AC format came along in 1992 (at least with KYSR/LA), two years before BB & R&R started publishing Hot AC charts and reporting panels, the top 40 format had lost numerous stations, and I was just wondering when WZPL evolved into a Hot AC station?

Thanks!!

 

[IndyDan]

WTLC replaced WIAN at 105.7 starting around 1968. Seems like they were located at a hotel (Dearborn?) near the RCA record plant on the near east side. TLC then moved to Villa Ave. on the southside before later moving to studios around 2200 North Meridian. They were on the circle for a while, then the northwest side (at 106.7) with HHH before moving to their current address near 10th & Meridian.

HHH went on in October 1991.

Actually, WTLC replaced WAIV, a classical station at 105.7 that was in the Dearborn Hotel and owned by 3 guys that were with Eli Lilly. WIAN was always at 90.1 and operated by the Indianapolis Public Schools and had studios at Shortridge High School before it became WFYI.

 

[bigtime]

Yes, you're right. It was WAIV. Thanks for the correction.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Okay WTTS has the inbred Bloomington format. We agree? I don't know what else to call it and if you use the phrase to anyone in radio they will say, WTTS?

AAA is usually not so College sounding. In the business people have gleely given TTS the shaft because of all the Bloomington sound on the air. The problem with TTS is their inability to go Indy but they claim Indy to the agencies. Listen to it and the music is great but I could care less (in Indy) about a remote and drink specials at a Bloomington night club.

Indy numbers and total area are different. Just as Bloomington and total area are different.

Bloomington doesn't care for the approach because the perception is TTS is trying to be Indy but can't.

Apparently a professor at IU threatened to sue so they kept their studio in Bloomington. Thus the diversity approach that can't work... make a decision.

 

[Timewarp]

No matter what anyone says, WTTS is one of Indiana's best FM stations. At least, you won't
find another station just like it anywhere else.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Maybe it sounded like I'm trashing them but that's not the case. Their music is well researched, signal is ginormous.

Indy stations don't consider them a player because of the Bloomington location. This seems to be their biggest problem. If an Indy station decided to be WTTS in Indy and do a AAA format it would be interesting.

They are in the same boat with WKKG (not an Indy station but some numbers in the book, beat WXLW, WARM and a few others.)

They need to make a decision on where they are going. An Indy station doing remotes in Bloomington is one thing in preception. A Bloomington remote on a non Indy station is another.

Even WZPL moved from Greenfield to Indy to overcome the perception. And it worked. Their numbers have hit the wastebasket a few times but haven't sunk as low as WTTS.

 

[First-time-long-time]

Chief, you hit that on the nose. Metro markets are hard to break if you are not located within one. WKKG never tried to go after the Indy market as far as I know, like TTS. It's better to be a big frog in a small pond. Showing in the metro does help the small market guy when the little agency buyer looks at the "fringe" market to buy for their clients. I think WKKG has been a county format since 1973, haven't they?

Arbitron is just a general guide, but that's about all there is to use.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

WKKG has been full time country since it changed names from WCSI FM I think in 1983. Until then it was pop mornings simulcast and then went to country at 10am.

Larry Henry and Ray Massie were the morning men I remembered. Larry Lannan did news until he went to work for (the IRS?). Lannan did a talk show at WSMJ years before. Received phone calls from Bernie Eagan who always ended the calls with something intended to sound similar to "thank you very much" but in actuality started with a word using alphabelt placement 6-21-3-11. "6-21-3-11 you very much" I can't wait to see if the automatic script truncates letters in this post.

One of the first fm stations in the state at 93.9, DON'T REMEMBER THE CALLS, with a huge tower until a tornado hit in 62 or 63. Never rebuilt because as we know FM will never amount to anything. Rumor was it went back on in 68 at some low power from the new CSI tower. 10 kw when I was in high school. 50 kw in the 80's.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

WKKG has been full time country since it changed names from WCSI FM I think in 1983. Until then it was pop mornings simulcast and then went to country at 10am.

Larry Henry and Ray Massie were the morning men I remembered. Larry Lannan did news until he went to work for (the IRS?). Lannan did a talk show at WSMJ years before. Received phone calls from Bernie Eagan who always ended the calls with something intended to sound similar to "thank you very much" but in actuality started with a word using alphabelt placement 6-21-3-11. "6-21-3-11 you very much" I can't wait to see if the automatic script truncates letters in this post.

One of the first fm stations in the state at 93.9, DON'T REMEMBER THE CALLS, with a huge tower until a tornado hit in 62 or 63. Never rebuilt because as we know FM will never amount to anything. Rumor was it went back on in 68 at some low power from the new CSI tower. 10 kw when I was in high school. 50 kw in the 80's.

Couple of added points...I think the 93.9 was actually on 93.7 & was 70KW horizontal. It may have been on Carr Hill Road at the WCSI site before the storm blew the tower down in 1953 or so. AM rebuilt, FM not. Don't hold me to those exact numbers (except the 93.7). There was another super-power FM in northern IN...Kokomo or Peru? Between the two of them, they claimed to cover just about the entire state...an easy claim to make if no one has radios to disprove it.

When I got to WCSI 31 years ago this month, Larry Henry was the morning man & Scott Goodwine did afternoons. I wanna say that Terry Geese did news (I remember that in particular because when I boosted the high end sound on the station, he called it "tin tin CSI" rather than ten ten CSI)...Larry Lannan came along later. Of Course, Sam Simmermaker was the main news guy...Kelly Church & Mary Liz Nolan were part of the picture (the cutest parts actually) & Mike King was the PD. The FM was simulcast with the pop or top 40 AM from 5AM-8AM (to compensate for the fact that the higher rated AM was strictly a sunrise to sunset station) & was automated Country Lovin' from 8AM to either 11PM or midnight except for the 30 minute Phone Club with Marilynn Smith at 2PM.

 

[First-time-long-time]

There was a VP GM there at that time who allowed his air staff to be creative. Jim Kauper was a class act and well respected in the broadcast business. When you saw him at the IBA, he just looked and sounded the part. He had a great set of pipes too. Larry Henry had that booming deep voice and worked with Indy 500 network while at WCSI. Mary Liz is the news director and morning show host on WGAC Augusta GA. Scott Goodwine was WCSI's Johnny Fever and a good talent, and Mike King still had hair. Sam is Sam and continues to do his thing there. No metro market radio group would let someone stay on-air that long, but I would give the WCSI owners a thumbs up for allowing an icon like Sam to stay on-air all these years. I think his is nearing 50 years on air with WCSI.

Scott McKain was another very good talent who went on to become a national known motivational speaker.

I remember the reverb years on am. It sounded like a tin lined studio.

The days of great GM's, great talent, and fun in radio is getting much harder to find on the local level. But, there are a few bright lights still remaining. Not many, but a few.

Bob, you are becoming one of the old guys in broadcasting to.

 

[qskyradio]

Indy stations don't consider them a player because of the Bloomington location. This seems to be their biggest problem. If an Indy station decided to be WTTS in Indy and do a AAA format it would be interesting.

Yeah, just ask some of those Indy stations who've lost buys to WTTS. The list goes on and on. Savvy local buyers see beyond Arbitron and understand the regional nature of the station, and the essence of the WTTS audience. And that's why WTTS is able to make money in a market that's significantly down year-to-date. Ratings are nice - but revenue's nicer.

 

[radioboymark]

I am forced to address some of the issues brought up by Chief Engineer in his posting on the front page.

In the Indy metro there are usually less than 100 books for Marion County. 100 books for 1 million people. Outer counties have the same percentage, do the math.

This is incorrect. While I don't have the specific info from Indianapolis, Vanderburgh County in Evansville, pop 146,000 got 540 diaries. Grand Traverse County in Michigan, pop 70.000 got 196 diaries. There are more than 100 diaries in Marion County. This is incorrect.

Arbitron will sell stations the zip codes plus the book pool it uses for sending the books out to stations. WFMS and WARM used this list to send out mini survey books during several Arbitron books to, yes, confuse. "Fill out when you listen and write the times down. If you haven't listened please try us."

Believe me, I have no undying love for Arbitron, but this is flat wrong. Arbitron does not sell stations anything of the sort. You can research the list of zip codes where diaries have been returned in the past and the number from each zip code. But there is no "book pool" available for sale. They do not reveal any information about the address of the responders to their surveys beyond the zip code, age and gender. I can't speak to what WFMS may have done in the past, and there are a lot of "confusing" promotional efforts, but you can't buy them from Arbitron.

Again, while I am not an ARB fan, it does no good to distribute false information and wrongly denigrate the only source of listener information we have to share with potential advertisers.

 

[hoosier45guy]

qskyradio:

You sure know a lot about WTTS. If things are going so great over there, why do I hear you almost every hour on 92.3 saying "...call me!...call me!...CALL ME!!!"?

 

[ChiefEngineer]

I am forced to address some of the issues brought up by Chief Engineer in his posting on the front page.

In the Indy metro there are usually less than 100 books for Marion County. 100 books for 1 million people. Outer counties have the same percentage, do the math.

This is incorrect. While I don't have the specific info from Indianapolis, Vanderburgh County in Evansville, pop 146,000 got 540 diaries. Grand Traverse County in Michigan, pop 70.000 got 196 diaries. There are more than 100 diaries in Marion County. This is incorrect.

Arbitron will sell stations the zip codes plus the book pool it uses for sending the books out to stations. WFMS and WARM used this list to send out mini survey books during several Arbitron books to, yes, confuse. "Fill out when you listen and write the times down. If you haven't listened please try us."

Believe me, I have no undying love for Arbitron, but this is flat wrong. Arbitron does not sell stations anything of the sort. You can research the list of zip codes where diaries have been returned in the past and the number from each zip code. But there is no "book pool" available for sale. They do not reveal any information about the address of the responders to their surveys beyond the zip code, age and gender. I can't speak to what WFMS may have done in the past, and there are a lot of "confusing" promotional efforts, but you can't buy them from Arbitron.

Again, while I am not an ARB fan, it does no good to distribute false information and wrongly denigrate the only source of listener information we have to share with potential advertisers.

And from what source is your information? Mine is from COMPLETED DIARIES. I have never seen 540 diaries COMPLETED in the Evansville DMA. Has there been a recent change? This may be the SENT BUT NOT COMPLETED LIST?

You are so wrong. Companies regularly fly to Arbitron to look at the actual responses which provide among other things "comments" which is well beyond the information you mention. This is done regularly to make sure for example WHHH got all it's correct listeners as opposed to Franklin , Richmond, or the 5 people that still listen to WAZY in the tsa.

Arbitron makes their zip codes available and sells lists which many stations buy. WIBC and the prize catalog...

The elctronic version allows you to pull up lots more information beyond age and gender to the type of products the respondents purchase, income levels, other stations an individual listens to, family member information, etc.

I am not trying to "denigrate " anyone. Had to look it up. New big word of the week. Will try to use this more than past big word, ginormous. Arbitron is the source and there is no detraction. Just letting people know how the system works.

 

[radioboymark]

Chief - Let me answer some of your questions:
First, diary return.

And from what source is your information? Mine is from COMPLETED DIARIES. I have never seen 540 diaries COMPLETED in the Evansville DMA. Has there been a recent change? This may be the SENT BUT NOT COMPLETED LIST?

I have the Fall 2007 Evansville book right here, that I would be glad to send you a PDF file with this info. There are two geographic area used in Evansville, Metro Survey Area (four counties - Vanderburgh, Posey, Warrick in Indiana and Henderson in Kentucky) and the TSA (Total Survey Area) another 23 counties in Indiana, Illinois and Kentucky. "In Tab" is the Arbitron term for returned, usable diaries.

Persons Sent Diaries MSA 1,679 TSA 2,820
Diaries In Tab MSA 1,049 TSA 1,742

In Tab Diaries by County:
Vanderburgh 586
Warrick 230
Posey 85
Henderson KY 148
Total in Evansville Metro 1,049

In Spring 2006, the furthest I can go back online, the In Tab total was 989.

Again, I would be happy to provide a PDF file with this info.

You can calculate the "Per Person Diary Value" by dividing the total populationin a county or demographic by the number of diaries In Tab in that county or demo.

Vanderburgh County 146,600 pop 586 diaries. PPDV 251. Each diary represents 251 people.

Now, to the question of "additional information" available from Arbitron - You are correct, you can get more info from the "comments" pages of diaries, as well as overall info on buying patterns and product usage. Your post inferred that Arbitron sold the actual list of diary keepers (you referred to the "book pool") for stations to market to directly. From the info that is available from Arbitron, stations can design target lists for direct mail and other marketing as you describe. But Arbitron does not sell mailing lists or addresses. You purchase those from other vendors. ARB info tells you the type of person that has filled out diaries in the past - age, gender, zip codes and other purchase information. They do not tell you WHO has filled out diaries in the past. No addresses or names or phone numbers.

Yes, there are ways to "game" the system. As a programmer and consultant, I've used many of them. I was concerned because your post strongly implied that stations and ARB work as accomplices to manipulate the system, and that is misinformation. (

 

[BobOnTheJob]

There was a VP GM there at that time who allowed his air staff to be creative. Jim Kauper was a class act and well respected in the broadcast business. When you saw him at the IBA, he just looked and sounded the part. He had a great set of pipes too. Larry Henry had that booming deep voice and worked with Indy 500 network while at WCSI. Mary Liz is the news director and morning show host on WGAC Augusta GA. Scott Goodwine was WCSI's Johnny Fever and a good talent, and Mike King still had hair. Sam is Sam and continues to do his thing there. No metro market radio group would let someone stay on-air that long, but I would give the WCSI owners a thumbs up for allowing an icon like Sam to stay on-air all these years. I think his is nearing 50 years on air with WCSI.

Scott McKain was another very good talent who went on to become a national known motivational speaker.

I remember the reverb years on am. It sounded like a tin lined studio.

The days of great GM's, great talent, and fun in radio is getting much harder to find on the local level. But, there are a few bright lights still remaining. Not many, but a few.

Bob, you are becoming one of the old guys in broadcasting to.

Jim Kauper...a true Pillar Of The Community & the man who hired me in 1977. He was fortunately a man who admired honesty. During my interview, Jim asked what I thought of the sound of his stations. I responded that they both sounded somewhere between mediocre & bad. It was one of the few times I would ever see him appear startled. He cleared his throat, agreed with my assessment & said that was one reason they were looking to make a change. The next day I accepeted their offer & off I went to Hoosier land.

Guess you're right about becoming one of the "old" guys in radio...that really hit me the other day when I looked at the manufacture date on a transmitter I service. The date was July 1971. When I first worked on that transmitter, it was 10 years old...now it's 37. Yikes...

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Chief - Let me answer some of your questions:
First, diary return.

And from what source is your information? Mine is from COMPLETED DIARIES. I have never seen 540 diaries COMPLETED in the Evansville DMA. Has there been a recent change? This may be the SENT BUT NOT COMPLETED LIST?

I have the Fall 2007 Evansville book right here, that I would be glad to send you a PDF file with this info. There are two geographic area used in Evansville, Metro Survey Area (four counties - Vanderburgh, Posey, Warrick in Indiana and Henderson in Kentucky) and the TSA (Total Survey Area) another 23 counties in Indiana, Illinois and Kentucky. "In Tab" is the Arbitron term for returned, usable diaries.

Persons Sent Diaries MSA 1,679 TSA 2,820
Diaries In Tab MSA 1,049 TSA 1,742

In Tab Diaries by County:
Vanderburgh 586
Warrick 230
Posey 85
Henderson KY 148
Total in Evansville Metro 1,049

In Spring 2006, the furthest I can go back online, the In Tab total was 989.

Again, I would be happy to provide a PDF file with this info.

You can calculate the "Per Person Diary Value" by dividing the total populationin a county or demographic by the number of diaries In Tab in that county or demo.

Vanderburgh County 146,600 pop 586 diaries. PPDV 251. Each diary represents 251 people.

Now, to the question of "additional information" available from Arbitron - You are correct, you can get more info from the "comments" pages of diaries, as well as overall info on buying patterns and product usage. Your post inferred that Arbitron sold the actual list of diary keepers (you referred to the "book pool") for stations to market to directly. From the info that is available from Arbitron, stations can design target lists for direct mail and other marketing as you describe. But Arbitron does not sell mailing lists or addresses. You purchase those from other vendors. ARB info tells you the type of person that has filled out diaries in the past - age, gender, zip codes and other purchase information. They do not tell you WHO has filled out diaries in the past. No addresses or names or phone numbers.

Yes, there are ways to "game" the system. As a programmer and consultant, I've used many of them. I was concerned because your post strongly implied that stations and ARB work as accomplices to manipulate the system, and that is misinformation. (

And when did the big number of diaries in distribution start? What was diary distribution 5 years ago? These numbers are more than the past.

 

[radioboymark]

What was diary distribution 5 years ago? These numbers are more than the past.

Chief, Monday I can go back as far as 1999 / 2000 and look at the Evansville diary return. Online only goes back to 2006.

I have the Spring 2004 Traverse City Michigan book here at home. 578 In Tab diaries for a Metro Survey Area population of 191,500. Each diary would represent 333. An agreement in 2006 upped the In Tab diary count, but I can't remember the percentage.

From which book did you see 100 In Tab diaries in Marion County?

 

[radioboymark]

Chief -As promised, information on Evansville diary return. This is data direct from the printed Arbitron Radio Market Report.

Fall 1992 - Total Population Metro Survery Area 232,000 In Tab Diaries 734 PPDV 316

Spring 2000 - Population 241,800 In Tab 1,018 Per Person Diary Value 237

Again, I'd like to know what your source is, please.