Infocomm Audio Stream

[LA_Guy]

I've put up a Barix MP3 audio stream for Infocomm. Since I'm hosting it on my (1 mbps up) Roadrunner 'net connection, I have enough bandwidth to open a couple of HTTP streams here.

The IP addess is: HTTP://76.171.40.49/xstream. You'll have to paste it into Winamp.

M Audio finally came out with a decent driver for my sound card, so both the sound quality and reliability are much improved. Audio is going coax digital out to coax digital in on the Instreamer. The files are FLAC and 256 kbps MP3 files (mostly purchased from Amazon). The basic stream is 160 kbps variable bit rate. Some of the files are dual mono on purpose to show interchannel matching. Yes, that's record noise you hear on some cuts-they're mastered from vinyl.

I'm using the newest version of Winamp for playback, with the old SqrSoft Crossfader output plug in. I'm also using the RockSteady DSP plug in configured as a
soft compressor/AGC.

I think you'll find the quality of this stream far exceeds analog FM quality, but I also welcome feedback.

 

[busyradioguy]

I've put up a Barix MP3 audio stream for Infocomm. Since I'm hosting it on my (1 mbps up) Roadrunner 'net connection, I have enough bandwidth to open a couple of HTTP streams here.

The IP addess is: HTTP://76.171.40.49/xstream. You'll have to paste it into Winamp.

M Audio finally came out with a decent driver for my sound card, so both the sound quality and reliability is much improved. Audio is going coax digital out to coax digital in on the Instreamer. The files are FLAC and 256 kbps MP3 files (mostly purchased from Amazon). The basic stream is 160 kbps variable bit rate. Some of the files are dual mono on purpose to show interchannel matching.

I'm using the newest version of Winamp for playback, with the old SqrSoft Crossfader output plug in. I'm also using the RockSteady DSP plug in configured as a
soft compressor/AGC.

I think you'll find the quality of this stream far exceeds analog FM quality, but I also welcome feedback.

OK you want feedback? Here it is... You still appear to be misinformed about the cascading issues. Oh, and when did Amazon start offering music downloads at the 320k bitrate? Last time I checked, the files were 128k.

You're also asking us to compare an internet stream against terrestrial radio. Apples to oranges, my friend.

 

[LA_Guy]

You prove your ignorance with this post. Amazon's files are ALL 256 kbps VBR files. Also, you're so quick to criticize WITHOUT listening!
Since you have such a critical ear, YOU tell us which files are MP3 (with that AWFUL cascading sound you so readily trash) and which are (uncompressed) FLAC!

Give me titles and I'll tell you if you are right or wrong...

 

[busyradioguy]

You prove your ignorance with this post. Amazon's files are ALL 256 kbps VBR files. Also, you're so quick to criticize WITHOUT listening!

I don't have to listen. You didn't even tell us what audio processing you are using, if any.

I've heard plenty of internet streams in my day, to know they do not equal or provide better quality than terrestrial radio running everything as linear PCM as much as possible..

You've been trying to justify an MP3 stream as an STL, for crying out loud.

I'm just giving you realistic feedback, which is what you wanted, right?

 

[OttoM]

I don't have to listen. You didn't even tell us what audio processing you are using, if any.

Well, after all he IS the "busyradioguy"...that's why he didn't listen!

If you reread the first post, LA_Guy is using Rock Steady as his processing.

 

[littlejohn]

>I think you'll find the quality of this stream far exceeds analog FM quality, but I also welcome feedback.<

Uh, we differ. Although, I got to admit, it exceeds in quality anything I've heard over the air in Los Angeles for many years.

 

[RealityCheckr]

uhhhhhh....A couple of questions

1) Is there some reason why every post is not clearly labelled as originating from Barrix? Most equipment manufacturer's are courteous/professional to point out who they are on a post-by-post basis so that they can be distinguished from end-users

2) Is there some reason that Barrix spends so little money on advertising in the various publications but instead is advertises in this forum?

Just wondering. I see regular posts from a variety of manufacturers and do not object, but I notice that unlike the others this poster never offers general knowledge but always highly brand/product specific posts. Just made me wonder.

Disclaimer - Reality Checkr has worked for several industry manufacturers and created this identity primarily to be able to point out the hypocrisy of many users towards manufacturers. That said, in this case it was a manufacturer that seemed to be over the line and it seemed worthy of comment.

 

[mikl73]

The stream sounds better than when I first listened.
I hear some tracks that don't sound as good (MP3 ones presumably) but that isn't always the case. Just like a 320k mp3 doesn't always sound better than a well ripped and encoded 128k file.

A large amount of music on the net sounds terrible.

I am hearing a Steely Dan track that doesn't sound a good as several other songs I have heard.
It sounds digital and crispy. It doesn't sound awful but it is noticeable to audio file types. The average person would think this sounds perfect.

one thing i have noticed... some songs sound awesome.. but the vocals show some artifacts. I don't hear what I would expect in the music when I hear the vocal sound the way the do. It difficult to explain.

Smooth Operator / Sade sounds good. That song doesn't sound through a bunch of digital processing especially when it's poorly encoded.

I am not really anoyed by anything I hear. I would say this is perfect for remote streaming and back up STL.

And yes it does sound better than allot of stations in my part of the country.

 

[ChiefEngineer]

Having used the Barix since before it was widespread I'm happy to se more information on here about the product.

The digital raspy on the vocals can be a product of overdriving the encoder. Early on we had issues but resolved these by lowering the encoder input. Running it tight on the 100% mark always led to problems.

Sade- the vocals are not pumped and are more mixed in with the music. Less chance for overdrive.

If it were : "Hey buy our stuff at buyourstuff.com I might have a problem.

I don't give a hoot about selfless promotion on here. Many do it. I only see product information on here. There is no need to label information in an information age.

 

[mikl73]

The digital raspy on the vocals can be a product of overdriving the encoder. Early on we had issues but resolved these by lowering the encoder input. Running it tight on the 100% mark always led to problems.

Yes I wasn't sure since all of the instruments sound just fine. I would expect the horns to break down suffer and die horribly first. This happens with allot of digital processors. They kill most jazz music.

With any steaming I have also found less modulation is always the best way to go.

A low bit rate stream at 50% sounds much better than one at 100% modulation any day of the week.

 

[LA_Guy]

uhhhhhh....A couple of questions

1) Is there some reason why every post is not clearly labelled as originating from Barrix? Most equipment manufacturer's are courteous/professional to point out who they are on a post-by-post basis so that they can be distinguished from end-users

2) Is there some reason that Barrix spends so little money on advertising in the various publications but instead is advertises in this forum?

Just wondering. I see regular posts from a variety of manufacturers and do not object, but I notice that unlike the others this poster never offers general knowledge but always highly brand/product specific posts. Just made me wonder.

Disclaimer - Reality Checkr has worked for several industry manufacturers and created this identity primarily to be able to point out the hypocrisy of many users towards manufacturers. That said, in this case it was a manufacturer that seemed to be over the line and it seemed worthy of comment.

Infocomm is going on this week in Vegas. We normally originate an audio stream that gets received in the booth, so people can listen to the quality of the equipment. Since I'm hosting the stream on my cable connection, I have plenty of upstream bandwidth to open it up for others to listen. That's my only intention. I'm not advertising. If it offends you, you don't have to listen.

Look around; I post on many different topics here. As I contract with Barix do much of their customer support, I probably know more then most about the products. They are fairly new and have many, many permutations. I try to answer people's questions about it here. Again, if this offends you, please don't read my posts.

If a consensus of people believe that I should not offer Barix tips and tricks here then I won't. You can figure things out for yourself.

Let me also comment this: YOU seem to have the one with the agenda here! Barix does advertise, maybe not as much as they should, but they do. They're holding back now until the Exstreamer 1000 comes out. Believe me, the legacy units don't HAVE to be advertised; we were completely out of stock in the whole country for over a week, until a shipment arrived. You would be amazed at how many of these units sell every day, most not to broadcast by the way.

 

[busyradioguy]

I don't have to listen. You didn't even tell us what audio processing you are using, if any.

Well, after all he IS the "busyradioguy"...that's why he didn't listen!

If you reread the first post, LA_Guy is using Rock Steady as his processing.

Riiiiight, whatever.

He said he's using RockSteady as a soft AGC. I hardly consider AGC as processing.

He's also been claiming Barix can make a good STL system, in some other threads, yet he doesn't fully graap what effects MP3 streaming as an STL can churn out.

But hey, to each their own I guess.

The fact that some of you who have listened and are pointing out how some tracks sound better than others, really says a lot.

 

[LA_Guy]

I don't have to listen. You didn't even tell us what audio processing you are using, if any.

Well, after all he IS the "busyradioguy"...that's why he didn't listen!

If you reread the first post, LA_Guy is using Rock Steady as his processing.

Riiiiight, whatever.

He said he's using RockSteady as a soft AGC. I hardly consider AGC as processing.

He's also been claiming Barix can make a good STL system, in some other threads, yet he doesn't fully graap what effects MP3 streaming as an STL can churn out.

But hey, to each their own I guess.

The fact that some of you who have listened and are pointing out how some tracks sound better than others, really says a lot.

The reason that tracks sound different is because the recordings sound different. I didn't pick the music based upon its quality, as that would be stacking the deck. Instead I picked a wide variety of music. As far as codecs trashing jazz, Birdman by Weather Report is on there. I think it sounds great!

I didn't 'process' the music because again, that would be stacking the deck. I wanted to show the product, faults and all and let others make their own decisions. Personally, I prefer a few artifacts over the 50 db signal to noise ratio I used to get on my 950 mHz composite STL when it rained heavily or we had a temp. inversion.

I did slip in a bit of AGC only to level out the variations in songs a bit. I'm running the peak level 6 db below clipping.

I live in L.A. There's NOT ONE commercial radio station here that sounds as good as this stream. I think that's pathetic; but again, it proves that using the units for an Internet STL wouldn't be the limiting factor for any LA station. All this fancy digital processing y'all like so much is 99% of their problems-along with outdated opamps, dried out caps and poorly interfaced equipment. Why bother running a linear PCM link if you're going to make the audio your're sending up it sound like crap?

 

[busyradioguy]

I live in L.A. There's NOT ONE commercial radio station here that sounds as good as this stream. I think that's pathetic; but again, it proves that using the units for an Internet STL wouldn't be the limiting factor for any LA station. All this fancy digital processing y'all like so much is 99% of their problems-along with outdated opamps, dried out caps and poorly interfaced equipment. Why bother running a linear PCM link if afterwards you're going to make is sound so bad?

That is a very subjectable opinion at best.

What you are not taking into consideration here is that real radio uses a ton of processing, and some of that is to blame for why radio sounds bad. Most programmers want their station to sound louder than everyone else, so they dial in their fancy chain of processor boxes for max squash and that’s why they sound so bad.

I am glad you care about better quality audio than most programmers do, but your Barix stream is still not a real world comparison. Your philosophy is more about curing the symptoms, and not the disease.

 

[LA_Guy]

I live in L.A. There's NOT ONE commercial radio station here that sounds as good as this stream. I think that's pathetic; but again, it proves that using the units for an Internet STL wouldn't be the limiting factor for any LA station. All this fancy digital processing y'all like so much is 99% of their problems-along with outdated opamps, dried out caps and poorly interfaced equipment. Why bother running a linear PCM link if afterwards you're going to make is sound so bad?

That is a very subjectable opinion at best.

What you are not taking into consideration here is that real radio uses a ton of processing, and some of that is to blame for why radio sounds bad. Most programmers want their station to sound louder than everyone else, so they dial in their fancy chain of processor boxes for max squash and that’s why they sound so bad.

I am glad you care about better quality audio than most programmers do, but your Barix stream is still not a real world comparison. Your philosophy is more about curing the symptoms, and not the disease.

I believe that you have things backwards. I want to cure the disease, while all you do is talk about the symptoms! You obviously don't read before you post-I said that 99% of the problem IS (over)processing! The bottom line is this: 99% of the radio stations EVERYWHERE are overprocessed and it negatively affects their sound! Time spent listening to radio has dropped every year for the past decade-and a good part of the problem is due to overprocessing causing listener fatigue. We have a new AAA station here in LA owned by a major broadcaaster. They pontificate on the air all day about how important the SOUND of music is to them-yet they SOUND like CRAP! We're shooting ourselves in the foot-and the listeners know it. "Broadcast quality" USED to mean the absolute best quality available- yet today I can buy an MP3 player for 25 bucks whose sound blows away the average FM station...and no, I'm not being subjective here-it's a FACT!

I noticed that you didn't even address the other part of my post-about how poorly maintained and set up equipment affects sound too! Thats's something that we DO have control over, yet I'll bet you I can walk into just about ANY radio station and in 24 hours make them sound 100% better then they do-without even touching the processors!

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

"If a consensus of people believe that I should not offer Barix tips and tricks here then I won't. You can figure things out for yourself."

I, for one, appriciate the info. Several manufacture reps and techs come in here. That's part of the reason I bother to even check this board. What does it hurt anyway? If R-I doesn't have a problem with it, who gives a crap if it's "advertising"? (I don't think it is anyway)

I love the Barix units I've used so far. I've put in 3. One of them runs a backup transmtter site at a friends station. The STL hop wasn't an option there as line-of-site wouldn't cut it. One of them is for a jazz station's internet stream. It worked FLAWLESSLY. I use one around here for remote broadcasting. For the price they are hard to beat. Am I going to jerk out my 950mhz STLs and replace them with a Barix unit? Hell no. I'd rather have great analog non-compressed audio anyday. With that being said the Barix units are quite useful for where a 950 STL link becomes impractical or impossible. For the price they are a very good option. I WILL be using some for a couple of remote stations we'll be building soon. We have a statewide state-owned internet system that's very reliable and should provide one hell of a good backbone for our stations to stream at higher bitrates with the Barix units. I'll use conventional STLs to blast the signal the last couple of miles to the towers from the state internet point-of-presence. Barix is just another tool in the toolbox for us to use. It turns out it's one hell of a good tool IMHO.

600 bucks for an STL? Who would have thought!?

;D

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

Why is it that people seem to think they have to squish the last db out of music on FM radio stations? The clipping nasties and squashing most major market stations do amazes me.

Among other things, is it any wonder why smaller market radio is actually doing BETTER in many ways these days than large market? Sound might be part of that too...

 

[littlejohn]

>I live in L.A. There's NOT ONE commercial radio station here that sounds as good as this stream.<

We all have our cross to bear It hasn't the quality of the FMs which are properly done, but it is reasonably close. Figure the cost of two DSLs, and using it as a backup for program delivery wold beat listening to one hand clap all to hell, in a failrly cost effective manner.
Depending the noise floor of the system, I's runb it at -12 on peaks. While analog overdoes it fairly gracefully, digital shounds really bad when three or four samples in a row are all 1s.
AGC is by definition processing.
Your system seems to be somewhat more subject to the GIGO factor, but that's true of pretty much all the nonlinear stuff out there, and >all<the data reduced stuff I've played with or heard.
And, 'snipey' posts are like insults and shots of whiskey - they only affect you if you accept them. Keep posting, them as dont like it can skip. There's always something to be learnt.

 

[LA_Guy]

It turns out that the newest version of Winamp has a huge memory leak, which kept locking up my computer. This afternoon, I changed the player to the Spider player. It has a built in crossfader, but no processing-so essentially you are listening to an unprocessed stream now. I also ran the level down a bit. It also has 32 bit processing, which keeps resource usage down. I think it sounds a bit better too.

 

[busyradioguy]

>I live in L.A. There's NOT ONE commercial radio station here that sounds as good as this stream.<

We all have our cross to bear It hasn't the quality of the FMs which are properly done, but it is reasonably close. Figure the cost of two DSLs, and using it as a backup for program delivery wold beat listening to one hand clap all to hell, in a failrly cost effective manner.
Depending the noise floor of the system, I's runb it at -12 on peaks. While analog overdoes it fairly gracefully, digital shounds really bad when three or four samples in a row are all 1s.
AGC is by definition processing.
Your system seems to be somewhat more subject to the GIGO factor, but that's true of pretty much all the nonlinear stuff out there, and >all<the data reduced stuff I've played with or heard.
And, 'snipey' posts are like insults and shots of whiskey - they only affect you if you accept them. Keep posting, them as dont like it can skip. There's always something to be learnt.

I don't have a problem with people sharing their opinions of products. It's where they start passing off their opinions as facts, that is counterproductive. L_A Guy has been claiming the Barix would make for a good primary STL, yet he doesn't understand the logistics of MP3 compression and how it ccan affect the overall sound.

I've already posted about my own experiments of MP3 vs Linear. Linear wins, hands down.

I am not trying to be a snipe about this. He wanted feedback and I gave it to him with consideration of his posts in other threads that have been beaten like a dead horse.