INTERESTING QUOTE-DOES IT APPLY TO HD RADIO?

[RadioDoc]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> By the way, here's a disclaimer. I know Rich Wood well. I
> worked with him in San Diego, and even though I loved to
> call him "Little Hitler" his intent has always been to get
> it right every time. He doesn't know engineering like I do,
> but he does know quality of product. If I was working with
> him to set up processing on a radio station, I would trust
> his ears like my mother's love. You may think he's an
> anti-IBUZ basher on a mission, and you're right, his mission
> is he cares about how our radio stations are failing from
> idiocy.
>
> And I will sign this off with my real name.
>
> John A. Buffaloe
>


And just as soon as he figures out that just because he says it doesn't make it true, maybe we'll help with his mission.

I don't doubt that Rich has some skills. It's too bad that his arrogance gets in the way of healthy conversation.

<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[RichWood]

Re: You're one of them!

> Rich and battle thsi out on another reflector. Guess he had
> to bring ths same "jokes" here now. As I said on the other
> reflector Rich, IT GETS OLD! Seems I am not the only one
> that thinks so either (sheesh did that sound like nanner
> nanner boo boo or what??? Sorry)

Actually, it sounded pretty dumb. Now let me get this straight: I'm the 2 year old? We must have been born days apart. You're trying to impress TXEngineer, right?

Did you learn that in engineering school?

You forget. I'm a programmer. You get used to understanding that you can't please everyone. I actually had Norman Vincent Peale swear at me at XTRA. Do you really think that some kiddie insult is going to have some kind of major psychological impact? I really hope your engineering skills are a step above your social ones. Kent, you really disappoint me. You're clinging to IBUZ like your job depends on it.

Rudd

 

[TXengineer]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> > You seem to be the one smoking the silly weed there, Rudd.
>
> > (I'd call you Rick, but seeing that you think it's
> > hillarious to call IBOC 'ibuz' for some unknown reason, I
> > think I'll just call you 'Rudd' from now on.)
> >
> > > The listeners will determine who wins the battle. If
> they
> > > buy receivers in huge numbers and terrestrial radio
> gains
> > > listeners the battle will be won.
> >
> > Right, and you need to remember this Rudd. You can't call
> > the system fault immediatley.
>
> Call me whatever you like. However, that excludes you from
> demanding a higher level of discussion. Go back over any of
> my posts and try to find one where I've ridiculed a person's
> name. An inanimate technology, yes. A personal attack like
> this, no. Even if you called me Rick it would be incorrect.
>
>
> In true cheerleader fashion, you've elevated the tone of the
> discussion to an awesome new level downward. Truly a great
> accomplishment. You should be proud. Hiding behind a phony
> name and not signing your real one must give you such a
> sense of power born of a lack of accountability.
>
> Rudd
>

Ya.. right. No one could bring it any lower than you have. Everyone else is just getting tired of it, and so am I, and so ends this discussion.

 

[RichWood]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> And just as soon as he figures out that just because he says
> it doesn't make it true, maybe we'll help with his mission.

I don't think it would be a smart self preservation move to hold my breath waiting for that. I ask a simple question about how artifacts might affect TSL and you'd think I'd raped your daughter.

> I don't doubt that Rich has some skills. It's too bad that
> his arrogance gets in the way of healthy conversation.

I train people to be arrogant. They're called Talk Show Hosts. The format gets great numbers and isn't something you can voicetrack on a secondary. You actually have to pay people and run it like real radio.

I'm greatly relived that you feel I might have some skills. I'll sleep a lot better tonight.

Rudd

 

[RichWood]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> Ya.. right. No one could bring it any lower than you have.
> Everyone else is just getting tired of it, and so am I, and
> so ends this discussion.

Does this mean I have to give up that creative and spiffy name you gave me?

Rudd

 

[BrokeEngineer]

Just so you know!

> At least you folks have settled on an age. Was it a
> conference call?

Yes, I 3 way called Chris and K9 to discuss the appropriate age to throw on you after we chatted the best way save our jobs cheering about IBOC.
In reality, I had it out a few months ago with RadoiDoc about IBOC because I didn't like it nor did I feel our Mom and Pop station could afford it.

> When the cheerleaders repeatedly kiss each
> others butts over how wonderful this revolution is, that
> gets tiring, too.

In case you missed it...I AM NOT A PROPONENT OF IBOC but instead of getting into a pissing contest with everyone, I asked questions listened to what they had to say with an open mind.


> I recall one cheerleader making fun of someone who mentioned
> the RIAA and the Radio Flag.

Big deal, get over it...that whole thing is a bit out of hand and frankly I am tired of the RIAA pissing and moaning everytime they feel they are not getting their nickel for a spin. That's another topic that I will leave for others for now.


> That's possible. When you can't take opposition viewpoints it's probably time to take a break.

I never meant to come across as not being able to look at other viewpoints. My point, that I thought was clear, was your repetitive childish statements. The problem, Rich, is that your viewpoints and thoughts are lost when you undermine your efforts with distracting elementary clichés. As I re-read some of your earlier posts, I am unclear as to what your opposition to IBOC is...

> I'm really amazed at the
> complete lack of senses of humor here.

Actually, I have an incredible sense of humor. Some years ago, I was a stand up comic and did very well. I chose to be with my family and not go on the road.

> I wasn't aware this
> was supposed to be and IBUZ lovefest.

It doesn't have to be, nor was it meant to be a lovefest...opposition to IBOC is the norm on this board but you find it necessary to attack the viewpoint of anyone who makes a positive statement about it (i.e., being a cheerleader)?

> Maybe the repetition will ease when some of the questions
> are answered. Attacking individuals is always a good
> technique to avoid the issues raised.


I revert to the above statement as to what your views/viewpoint is. I have said from the beginning that the delivery method is not what is "broken" with radio, it is the content. I will leave it at that but suffice to say when listeners say they are hearing too many commercials and the same songs over and over, we (radio in general) are not listening.
Hope this clears any confusion there may have been.
G

 

[RadioDoc]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> > And just as soon as he figures out that just because he
> says
> > it doesn't make it true, maybe we'll help with his
> mission.
>
> I don't think it would be a smart self preservation move to
> hold my breath waiting for that. I ask a simple question
> about how artifacts might affect TSL and you'd think I'd
> raped your daughter.
>
> > I don't doubt that Rich has some skills. It's too bad
> that
> > his arrogance gets in the way of healthy conversation.
>
> I train people to be arrogant. They're called Talk Show
> Hosts. The format gets great numbers and isn't something you
> can voicetrack on a secondary. You actually have to pay
> people and run it like real radio.
>
> I'm greatly relived that you feel I might have some skills.
> I'll sleep a lot better tonight.
>
> Rudd
>

That would be helpful, if this were a talk show.

And as for running it like real radio, and not a jukebox...the last talk station I saw consisted of a satellite dish, and an automation system. Hardly "real radio". In fact, much like a jukebox. I wonder if they actually paid people, other than the consultant?<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[k9ez]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> > > You seem to be the one smoking the silly weed there,
> Rudd.
> >
> > > (I'd call you Rick, but seeing that you think it's
> > > hillarious to call IBOC 'ibuz' for some unknown reason,
> I
> > > think I'll just call you 'Rudd' from now on.)
> > >
> > > > The listeners will determine who wins the battle. If
> > they
> > > > buy receivers in huge numbers and terrestrial radio
> > gains
> > > > listeners the battle will be won.
> > >
> > > Right, and you need to remember this Rudd. You can't
> call
> > > the system fault immediatley.
> >
> > Call me whatever you like. However, that excludes you from
>
> > demanding a higher level of discussion. Go back over any
> of
> > my posts and try to find one where I've ridiculed a
> person's
> > name. An inanimate technology, yes. A personal attack like
>
> > this, no. Even if you called me Rick it would be
> incorrect.
> >
> >
> > In true cheerleader fashion, you've elevated the tone of
> the
> > discussion to an awesome new level downward. Truly a great
>
> > accomplishment. You should be proud. Hiding behind a phony
>
> > name and not signing your real one must give you such a
> > sense of power born of a lack of accountability.
> >
> > Rudd
> >
>
> Ya.. right. No one could bring it any lower than you have.
> Everyone else is just getting tired of it, and so am I, and
> so ends this discussion.
>


TX give it up. I have had this never ending "discussion" with rudd on another reflector. Trust me it never ends. And if you disagree with him, he just calls you childish names. And then he continues to add pointless bits that add nothing relevant to the discussion, but HE thinks is funny (therefore the rest of the universe must think so as well).

 

[k9ez]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> > > > If you can beat 'em with facts, baffle them with BS!
> > >
> > > If that isn't the truth. Have you seen the HDRadio web
> > site.
> > >
> > >
> > > Rich
> > >
> >
> > Yeah, and it's nothing compared to the BS slung around
> here
> > by a couple of anti-"IBUZ" posters...
> >
> I'm anti IBUZ because I don't believe it's the best we can
> do from an engineering standpoint (good engineering
> practice), but moreso because we are attempting to compete
> with what is better content by throwing in questionable
> technology. It isn't our analog technology (well, if the
> processing is out of control that's another issue) that has
> caused us to lose listenership, it's content. Even if a
> station has gone to jukeboxing, why can't it be a good
> jukebox instead of a stale, repetitive jukebox?
>
> As to the engineering questions, there are indeed issues in
> making an HD system work properly, and certainly questions
> as to why we couldn't have found a better way to engage
> digital broadcasting.
>
> One of my former stations went from playing CD's on a linear
> digital STL to playing the music from a very high quality,
> albeit compressed of course, computer live assist system.
> The difference to the serious golden ear jocks I had was
> readily apparent.
>
> Now what is this that we're downsizing with all of this
> compression and jukeboxing in both the engineering and
> programming worlds?
>
> Our product. Music. Audio.
>
> Now add the lack of engaging content. As we take our
> product to the lowest level of content and quality, we find
> that listeners leave us for other services. And the
> enticement we present to them is "DA DA" a new whiz bang
> digital system that really doesn't have much audio quality
> to it and is another version of the boring jukebox they've
> already heard. But they can get this wonderful new service
> for somewhere around $350. Wow. Can I add a bridge to this
> order?
>
> I am a former Clear Channel engineer that didn't dare say
> any of this for fear of losing my job. I did breathe a huge
> sigh of relief when I was told my market wouldn't go IBUZ
> before '07. I figured I had two free years to 1) not have
> to deal with this garbage, and 2) hope that in that time the
> whole thing would go down the tubes and I could use some of
> that capital for improving my studios and air chains.
>
> By the way, here's a disclaimer. I know Rich Wood well. I
> worked with him in San Diego, and even though I loved to
> call him "Little Hitler" his intent has always been to get
> it right every time. He doesn't know engineering like I do,
> but he does know quality of product. If I was working with
> him to set up processing on a radio station, I would trust
> his ears like my mother's love. You may think he's an
> anti-IBUZ basher on a mission, and you're right, his mission
> is he cares about how our radio stations are failing from
> idiocy.
>
> And I will sign this off with my real name.
>
> John A. Buffaloe
>


John,

I work for Clear Channel. I have never ever had any troubles bringing up any issues what so ever. And I have discussed the topic all the way up the food chain. So it sounds like you had issues outside of engineering to me. I feel totally comfortable saying what I want, and have been encouraged from the top to do so. I must however make sure to state that my opinions may be different than my employers.

My real name.

Kent Winrich

 

[SuperSound]

Re: IT WOULD ALSO APPLY TO FMEXTRA THEN!NOT SO!

WRONG AGAIN! (A VERY BAD HABIT!) THE BASIC DIGITAL SUBCARRIER METHOD OF TRANSMISSION UPDATED AND USED BY FMeXTRA WAS INVENTED AND USED BY MAJOR EDWIN ARMSTRONG OVER 60 YEARS AGO.
Another channel -- 57 kHz -- is in use exclusively for data. Data includes
highway condition alertings in many metro areas and digital paging. It is a
channel not favored by at-home listeners, because it is devoid of talk or music
programming.
http://www.textfiles.com/hamradio/sca.txt

Armstrong also operated a subcarrier on that transmitter and demonstrated transmission of facsimile, to show that newspapers might also be delivered by radio broadcast stations. His facsimile demonstrations were carried on later by a number of FM stations, most notably those of the Cox broadcast and newspaper group, including WIOD-FM in Miami.
http://www.oldradio.com/

> > "Beware when any idea is promoted primarily because it is
> > "bold, exciting, innovative, and new." There are many
> ideas
> > that are "bold, exciting, innovative and new," but also
> > foolish."
> > -Donald Rumsfeld
> >
>

 

[RadioEngineer]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> John,
>
> I work for Clear Channel. I have never ever had any troubles
> bringing up any issues what so ever. And I have discussed
> the topic all the way up the food chain. So it sounds like
> you had issues outside of engineering to me. I feel totally
> comfortable saying what I want, and have been encouraged
> from the top to do so. I must however make sure to state
> that my opinions may be different than my employers.
>
> My real name.
>
> Kent Winrich
>
I had a discussion with one of the regional VP's who stated to me that there was no reason to put IBOC on FM, but that he would deny saying it if I repeated it and quoted him. That sent the message to me that I should just screw the wires together and go on about my business. No?

 

[taylorengineer]

Re: You're one of them!

> > Rich and battle thsi out on another reflector. Guess he
> had
> > to bring ths same "jokes" here now. As I said on the
> other
> > reflector Rich, IT GETS OLD! Seems I am not the only one
> > that thinks so either (sheesh did that sound like nanner
> > nanner boo boo or what??? Sorry)
>
> Actually, it sounded pretty dumb. Now let me get this
> straight: I'm the 2 year old? We must have been born days
> apart. You're trying to impress TXEngineer, right?
>
> Did you learn that in engineering school?
>
> You forget. I'm a programmer. You get used to understanding
> that you can't please everyone. I actually had Norman
> Vincent Peale swear at me at XTRA. Do you really think that
> some kiddie insult is going to have some kind of major
> psychological impact? I really hope your engineering skills
> are a step above your social ones. Kent, you really
> disappoint me. You're clinging to IBUZ like your job depends
> on it.
>
> Rudd
>
Rich.....I'm sorry....Rudd,
Did you really make Norman Vincent Peale swear at you??
That is a far more interesting story than this flame war on IBOC...er...IBUZ,IBOO,IBLAH et. al.!
Would you please tell me that story? Thanks!
[email protected]

 

[RichWood]

Re: You're one of them!

> Rich.....I'm sorry....Rudd,
> Did you really make Norman Vincent Peale swear at you??
> That is a far more interesting story than this flame war on
> IBOC...er...IBUZ,IBOO,IBLAH et. al.!
> Would you please tell me that story? Thanks!

It was just one of my skills. I was Program Manager of XTRA, San Diego/Tijuana. Our national sales reps sold a block of time to Norman Vincent Peale. At that time, religion was prohibited on Mexican stations. I had to tell Mr. Positive Thinking that we couldn't legally run his show. Technically, it was considered religion. He got positively angry and called me all sorts of things that Howard Stern would have been fined for saying.

Rudd (soon to resume being Rich)

 

[RadioDoc]

Re: IT WOULD ALSO APPLY TO FMEXTRA THEN

> WRONG AGAIN! (A VERY BAD HABIT!) THE BASIC DIGITAL
> SUBCARRIER METHOD OF TRANSMISSION UPDATED AND USED BY
> FMeXTRA WAS INVENTED AND USED BY MAJOR EDWIN ARMSTRONG OVER
> 60 YEARS AGO.
> Another channel -- 57 kHz -- is in use exclusively for
> data. Data includes
> highway condition alertings in many metro areas and digital
> paging. It is a
> channel not favored by at-home listeners, because it is
> devoid of talk or music
> programming.
> http://www.textfiles.com/hamradio/sca.txt
>
> Armstrong also operated a subcarrier on that transmitter and
> demonstrated transmission of facsimile, to show that
> newspapers might also be delivered by radio broadcast
> stations. His facsimile demonstrations were carried on later
> by a number of FM stations, most notably those of the Cox
> broadcast and newspaper group, including WIOD-FM in Miami.
> http://www.oldradio.com/
>
> > > "Beware when any idea is promoted primarily because it
> is
> > > "bold, exciting, innovative, and new." There are many
> > ideas
> > > that are "bold, exciting, innovative and new," but also
> > > foolish."
> > > -Donald Rumsfeld
> > >
> >
>

You don't fully understand the technology (a very bad habit). While SCA has been around for a long tine (of course, so has using AM and FM sidebands) it has only been used for low speed data. It can induce crosstalk on the main channel, and is prone to multipath issues.

But you knew all that, right?<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[RichWood]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> TX give it up. I have had this never ending "discussion"
> with rudd on another reflector. Trust me it never ends.
> And if you disagree with him, he just calls you childish
> names. And then he continues to add pointless bits that add
> nothing relevant to the discussion, but HE thinks is funny
> (therefore the rest of the universe must think so as well).

Not a bad idea. Kent has disliked me for quite a long time. It's something of a badge of honor. I'm curious, Kent, what names have I ever called you? Calling you a cheerleader isn't the same as this kind of personal namecalling. Please tell the folks here exactly what names I've called you. I don't recall ever doing it, so I'd like you to refresh my memory. I think that's only fair from someone who deals only in facts.

Rich

 

[taylorengineer]

Re: You're one of them!

> > Rich.....I'm sorry....Rudd,
> > Did you really make Norman Vincent Peale swear at you??
> > That is a far more interesting story than this flame war
> on
> > IBOC...er...IBUZ,IBOO,IBLAH et. al.!
> > Would you please tell me that story? Thanks!
>
> It was just one of my skills. I was Program Manager of XTRA,
> San Diego/Tijuana. Our national sales reps sold a block of
> time to Norman Vincent Peale. At that time, religion was
> prohibited on Mexican stations. I had to tell Mr. Positive
> Thinking that we couldn't legally run his show. Technically,
> it was considered religion. He got positively angry and
> called me all sorts of things that Howard Stern would have
> been fined for saying.
>
> Rudd (soon to resume being Rich)
>
You really made hime swear at you??!!
I'm am in complete awe!! You consultant guys are god-like....I am under your control....shall I destroy IBUZ transmitters now or wait for your signal?

 

[RichWood]

Re: You're one of them!

> You really made hime swear at you??!!
> I'm am in complete awe!! You consultant guys are
> god-like....I am under your control....shall I destroy IBUZ
> transmitters now or wait for your signal?

I didn't make Norman Vincent Peale swear at me. Like here, I gave him information he didn't want to hear. The swearing part was his own choice. It surprised the Hell out of me. The sales reps should have known we legally couldn't run religion and not sold him the time. They did the same thing with Reverend Ike. He understood.

As for the transmitters. I don't think we'll need a signal. My guess is there would be no one with a receiver to hear it. I'd use an IBUZ transmitter to send it.

Rich

 

[k9ez]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> > TX give it up. I have had this never ending "discussion"
> > with rudd on another reflector. Trust me it never ends.
> > And if you disagree with him, he just calls you childish
> > names. And then he continues to add pointless bits that
> add
> > nothing relevant to the discussion, but HE thinks is funny
>
> > (therefore the rest of the universe must think so as
> well).
>
> Not a bad idea. Kent has disliked me for quite a long time.
> It's something of a badge of honor. I'm curious, Kent, what
> names have I ever called you? Calling you a cheerleader
> isn't the same as this kind of personal namecalling. Please
> tell the folks here exactly what names I've called you. I
> don't recall ever doing it, so I'd like you to refresh my
> memory. I think that's only fair from someone who deals only
> in facts.
>
> Rich
>

Um no Rich, I have not had dislike for you. As a matter of fact we chatted about your times at XETRA as an example. We chatted about what you did there and my interest in teh station "back then"

Your "badge of honor" is really quite a sad thing really.

If calling me a cheeleader, or part of Jabba the HD, etc., I dont know what name calling is Rich.

But again, I cannot disagree with you. Guess no one can huh?

Enough of this topic, OK? We both are not following the rules of the board in this line of conversation, and to be honest surprised they have not been deleted.

 

[RichWood]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

> If calling me a cheeleader, or part of Jabba the HD, etc., I
> dont know what name calling is Rich.

You accused me of personal attacks. I consider a personal attack to be one in which someone makes fun of my name, my family or something specifically personal, completely unrelated to the topic.

A cheerleader is just someone who is a booster for something. If someone called me a cheerleader for real radio programming on secondary channels or a cheerleader for fixing AM IBUZ by running it 24/7 right now and fixing the problems. I'd gladly accept the term. I'd consider it a compliment.

Strangely, I really think it can work. I think the biggest improvement in quality is on AM. FM is marginal, considering the processing being used and the shortened coverage area of digital vs. analog.

I'm not against digital. I'm against the deceptive marketing of the HD Dominion.

I believe digital is going to be great for NPR stations where they'll run Classical music on one channel and Talk on the other. It's live. It's compelling and it's real radio.

Rich

 

[RadioDoc]

Re: I agree... this is getting old and tired

>
> I believe digital is going to be great for NPR stations
> where they'll run Classical music on one channel and Talk on
> the other. It's live. It's compelling and it's real radio.
>
> Rich
>


That's something I can agree with 100%. Please keep in mind that K9EZ are defending the technology, not the programming. We think the FM technology is good, and holds lots of promise. Whether or not the programming will live up to that is a big question - one I can't answer.

More importantly, though, is your accusation that we as engineers are "unable" to speak out against HD. Do you speak of the technology, or the programming? Not that it matters either way, since obviously we have both spoken out about AM IBOC. My point is, I guess, that arguing with me about programming is pointless, since I have no control over it. I absolutely agree that programming is going to be what makes or breaks it. I just install and run the stuff, though. I simply defend the technical side of IBOC, not the programming one.

Will I be disappointed if after all of this work we don't use it to broadcast compelling programming? Yes I will. I am reserving judgement, however, until it gets all rolled out.

All I can say is that Satellite Radio and iPods are nothing but big jukeboxes, and they're worrying traditional broadcasters. So there is something to be said for jukeboxes, as well as good, solid, local programming.

In Chicago, I enjoy Biondi on WJMK-HD2, as well as the "jukebox" dance programming on WBBM-HD2.

There is room for both.

Not that you care one bit how I feel about you, but I really do respect a lot of your views. I think you could present them better, but that's a personal opinion. You are wanting great radio. So am I. I grew up listening to WLS and WCFL, and was on the air in the "Big 80's" when CHR blossomed. I think radio is getting to be a former shell of itself.

I sure don't think that the IBOC technology alone will help radio, but it's a good start. FM IBOC sounds good. CD quality? It may or may not be, but it is better than satellite, and a lot of the MP3's that consumers are downloading today. The average listener will notice the difference. If we provide some compelling content through that technology, it may just drag terrestrial radio into this century.

Anyway, that's my $.02 on the whole thing.<P ID="signature">______________
</P>