Interesting result from Tropo signal

[Skynet74]

This happened during the summer, but I'm just posting about it now. I'm in Rhode Island. I typically get WCVB 5 in Boston without any problem. Well one night conditions were awesome and I was getting all kinds of crazy stations. The one that surprised me most was WNYW FOX 5 in New York. Boston showed up on 5.1 as usual, but FOX 5 from New York showed up on 5.2 . I would have thought that Chanel 5 in Boston would have blocked out any other channels 5 from showing up. But apparently it doesn't work that way with digital. Both channels were crystal clear.

So I guess that when your TV pulls in more than one station with the same channel number, the channels just show up in sequence 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 etc. Weird. Makes you wonder why spacing between identical frequencies is even necessary anymore if they can all show up fine on your TV anyway.

 

[RonTheEngineer]

This happened during the summer, but I'm just posting about it now. I'm in Rhode Island. I typically get WCVB 5 in Boston without any problem. Well one night conditions were awesome and I was getting all kinds of crazy stations. The one that surprised me most was WNYW FOX 5 in New York. Boston showed up on 5.1 as usual, but FOX 5 from New York showed up on 5.2 . I would have thought that Chanel 5 in Boston would have blocked out any other channels 5 from showing up. But apparently it doesn't work that way with digital. Both channels were crystal clear.

So I guess that when your TV pulls in more than one station with the same channel number, the channels just show up in sequence 5.1, 5.2, 5.3 etc. Weird. Makes you wonder why spacing between identical frequencies is even necessary anymore if they can all show up fine on your TV anyway.

Yes and no...

The signals were probably about equal, so you were receiving them about the same, sort of akin to the days of analog when you'd be able to see two channels at once, but here's the difference....

They had different program PIDs and TSID numbers... kind of complex to get into right now, but WCVB had a different TSID than WNYW and that's why your tuner didn't freak out.

 

[RonTheEngineer]

Oh and TSID means Transport Stream ID. A unique identifier set down by the ATSC, there's a whole table out there somewhere.

It --actually-- identifies the station, WCVB-1 is just "text" there for the benefit of you and the FCC.

 

[ansky212]

I think this is the first time I have ever heard about someone being able to DX a tv station since the changeover to digital.

 

[cd637299]

I think this is the first time I have ever heard about someone being able to DX a tv station since the changeover to digital.

Oh my!! Not so.... www.wtfda.info .....check out the TV DX pix.

About the WCVB/WNYW thing.....it's not as weird as it sounds. Was checking w9wi's site database ( www.w9wi.com ) about this....The "Channel 5" is just the "virtual" channel. Neither WCVB *nor* WNYW use the actual channel 5 *frequency* anymore. With a few exceptions, no full-power digital TV station's frequency is below that of ch 7 (WPVI ch 6 Philly is an exception, still using the channel 6 frequency...try for it next time NYC is strong from RI).

WCVB's actual ("RF") channel is 20, and WNYW uses ch 44.

I do not have a modern digital TV, but I do use a converter box. One can manually scan the RF channels for signals, even though the station displays as the virtual channel when in regular tuning mode.

In my case: I live near Miami. Both Miami & Orlando used to have a channel 6. Both these channel 6's, after the conversion, moved to different RF channels, Miami's WTVJ to 31 & Orlando's WKMG to 26, albeit still calling themselves "channel 6". It's a fairly common thing for me, when WKMG comes in (and if I "save" them in the box), to scan and see TWO "6-1"s. I like the new way of DXn, although you will miss the days of co-channel interference, except when foreign E-skip hits ya, like it did to me yesterday.

Study up, there will be a test on this.

cd

 

[iyiyi]

WCVB is on channel 20. WNYW is on channel 44. They both presently have absolutely zero connection to RF channel 5. They do not interfere with each other whatsoever. They merely indicate 5.x because the PID/TSID tells the receiver to. A couple of co-channel examples: RF 35 shows as virtual 30 WVIT where RF 30 appears as virtual 4 WBZ. Hows about RF 31 as virtual 61 Hartford or virtual 25 in Boston? Then there is RF 18 (62v Boston) and virtual 18 Hartford (RF 46). The one that really irks me the most is WBZ. They so wisely divorced themselves from the "channel 4" association for 5 years. It may be a cute, quaint positioner for their future dot 2 subchannel, but WBZ disappointed me when they resurrected 4. WGBX 44 with their 4 screens owns that number so far as I can consider. Perhaps they can start referring to WBZ radio as 990 again while they are at it. Virtual channel designation may have had a rationale at analog sunset but now is confusing to non technical folk.

 

[w9wi]

Broken record time

I've answered hundreds of viewer reception issue calls and emails for a major Nashville station over the last 2-3 years.

The grand total of ordinary viewers who've been confused by virtual channels:

ZERO.

Specifically in New England, if there was no channel remapping, and you wanted to watch WHDH, the numbers you'd punch in on your TV's remote:

- Before digital: 07.
- During the digital transition: 42.
- After the digital transition was complete: 07. But only for a week or two.
- A week or two into the digital transition: 42.
- At all times, if you have cable/satellite: 07.

Since there is channel remapping, the numbers you punch in on your TV's remote to watch WHDH:

- Before digital: 07.
- During the digital transition: 07.
- After the digital transition was complete: 07.
- A week or two into the digital transition: 07.
- At all times, if you have cable/satellite: 07.

What's less confusing?

 

[iyiyi]

I understand that 2, 5, 7, 25 and etc kept their analog channel identities tenaciously throughout the entire transition. I see nothing wrong with that because they are maintaining their long-standing images and identities. I simply mean that these designations and reasons for doing so should clearly be publicized so the public can comprehend them. In a few years all this will be forgotten. This info will help future people understand what actually went down and why.

 

[Laurence Glavin]

I understand that 2, 5, 7, 25 and etc kept their analog channel identities tenaciously throughout the entire transition. I see nothing wrong with that because they are maintaining their long-standing images and identities. I simply mean that these designations and reasons for doing so should clearly be publicized so the public can comprehend them. In a few years all this will be forgotten. This info will help future people understand what actually went down and why.

Which raises the question: could a formerly analog UHF like WFXT or WMFP inform ADVERTISERS that no Boston station is in fact broadcasting on its heritage VHF channel? Is it possible that sales reps are letting advertisers continue to believe that WBZ-TV, WCVB-TV and WHDH-TV still enjoy the signal advantage they formerly enjoyed? I don't know if Jordan Furniture, Bernie and Phyl Furniture, Bob's Discount Furniture, Cardi's Furniture or the Gardner Furniture outlets would change their current advertising allotments, but perceived channel advantages might influence some advertisers.

 

[iyiyi]

What is less confusing? Here WSBE is virtual 36, rf 22, cable 508. WLWC is 28 virtual, 22 rf, 509 cable. WNAC is 64 virtual, 12 rf, 511 cable. WPXQ is 69 virtual, 17 rf, 515 cable. WPRI is 12 virtual, 13 rf, 512 cable. Anyway, if a kid tries 7 on his box and starts waving rabbit ears around trying to get 42 (the "real 7" ), I guarantee that you will hear a good number of epithets before you ever see a "WHDH" in these parts of town! Also WFXT and WMFP have always been on UHF and are to this day! Both stations have killer signals that neither one could have even DREAMED of in their analog incarnations!

 

[Markxxx]

I work with computers and I can tell you a LOT of customers cannot figure out virtual channels. In Chicago, I constantly hear, for some reason Channel 2 is on channel 12 and so forth.

Whether or not you can get two virtual channels is dependent on your tuner. I know someone in Delaware and he can get two virtual channel 7s. One from NYC and one from DC, when the conditions are right. On his RCA he only gets one, but his other TV will put one on 7.1 and the other on 7.2

I know in Chicago, I've seen TVs where WLS which is on both RF 7 and 44. It will show up on virtual 7, 7.2 and 7.3 and 44.1, 44.2, 44.3, 44.4, 44.5, 44.6

But WSNS which is on RF 45 and virutal 44, will NOT show up on 44 but only on 45.

But after a few rescans you can get the TV correct, for awhile.

It's really your TV tuner that decides. Some do better jobs than others of decoding the virtual channel.

Most viewer don't know enough to call a TV station. I certainly would never think to call

 

[RonTheEngineer]

WCVB is on channel 20. WNYW is on channel 44...

Yes I forgot they are on different RF channels... BUT... if by some miracle that 2 20's or 5's or 44's came in, my original answer would hold.

 

[iyiyi]

Agreed!

 

[cd637299]

WCVB is on channel 20. WNYW is on channel 44...

Yes I forgot they are on different RF channels... BUT... if by some miracle that 2 20's or 5's or 44's came in, my original answer would hold.

It can be done, when Tropo is great, especially if you have one or both co-channels as low-power. The only time I had another full-power (more distant) DTV override a common full-power one was WRDQ DT 27 Orlando briefly overriding my semi-local (but 100%-viewable with antenna at a good position) WXEL DT 27 (virtual 42). It came in for about 30 seconds, about a year ago.

Usually for me when co-channel interference comes, and it's strong, the signals often negate themselves, showing *no bar at all* on signal strength.

cd

 

[necrat123]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WjiuSjrqrM
WNYW-DT 5.1 in RI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB9VsHKtajY
WNBC 4.1 in RI

Both using the built in TV's tuner, and a non amplified indoor directional VHF/UHF radio shack antenna.

 

[luperm]

Just to add to the confusion...if you were picking up WNYW Fox 5 on 5.2, then it was probably WWOR-TV's subchannel (RF 38).

 

[Skynet74]

Just to add to the confusion...if you were picking up WNYW Fox 5 on 5.2, then it was probably WWOR-TV's subchannel (RF 38).

I understood everything until you threw in that Monkey wrench. I have no idea how those two stations would be related and how picking up WNYW would have anything to do with WWOR.

 

[w9wi]

Just to add to the confusion...if you were picking up WNYW Fox 5 on 5.2, then it was probably WWOR-TV's subchannel (RF 38).

I understood everything until you threw in that Monkey wrench. I have no idea how those two stations would be related and how picking up WNYW would have anything to do with WWOR.

The two stations are co-owned.

Of course, with digital TV, a single transmitter can carry more than one program at the same time. There's no reason - either technical or legal - why one of those programs can't be the same program that's transmitted by some other station. Indeed, it's fairly common.

What's happening in this case, is that one of the programs transmitted by WWOR is WNYW's main program, and one of the programs transmitted by WNYW is WWOR's main program.

IIRC this arose out of 9/11. All the main digital transmitters were on the WTC, and thus went off the air in the attacks. But WNYW had a backup digital transmitter on the ESB. They were able to configure it to carry a second program, and they used that second program to carry WWOR. They never turned it off, and eventually added a simulcast in the other direction. I suppose they figure that's redundancy in case of a failure of the WNYW transmitter. And that sometimes, due to questionable indoor antennas, you can get one station but not another even though they transmit from the same site. (so if your antenna isn't up to receiving the WNYW transmitter, you can still watch WNYW over WWOR's transmitter)

And this is another value of channel remapping. The viewer who wants to watch WNYW doesn't have to know that it's channel 44 on the set in the living room but channel 38 on the set in the kitchen -- it's channel 5 everywhere.

 

[KML0224]

Maybe WCTX-TV (MY) channel 59 of New Haven could put WTNH-TV (ABC) channel 8 of New Haven on 59-3? Ha ha! They are sister stations though. I'm sure more people can receive WCTX's digital signal on UHF channel 39 as opposed to VHF channel 10, which is being used by WTNH. In New Britain's south end, I usually get WCTX's digital signal (when I actually have the antenna hooked up), while WTNH's digital is so-so.

 

[fybush]

There's a real-life example of that not far from you, KML...WRGB in Schenectady is on RF 6, and of course there are viewers who have trouble with that low-band VHF signal. They're co-owned with WCWN, virtual 45, RF 43, and so they have an SD feed of WRGB's programming on one of WCWN's subchannels. I know a few people in and around Albany for whom the WCWN feed is the only way they can watch WRGB.

And again, as Doug notes, nobody has to worry about "WRGB, channel 6, except if you're seeing it on channel 43...or on the translator in the Berkshires that's on a different UHF frequency." Regardless of the transmitter carrying the programming, it's "6," just as it's been for 60+ years.