Inventor of comepting technology thinks IBOC violates FCC rules.

[IBOCRocks]

Fixing the subject line. Here's the story...Leonard Kahn is marketing a competing technology:

http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/03_rwf_kahn.shtml

 

[autopaint-1]

And it's Kahn's attitudes which have turned most of the industry against him. His web site is silly filled with anger and bitterness. I don't doubt Mr. Kahns abilities as an engineer, but he isn't doing hiomself any favors behaving like a child.

 

[davideduardo]

And it's Kahn's attitudes which have turned most of the industry against him. His web site is silly filled with anger and bitterness. I don't doubt Mr. Kahns abilities as an engineer, but he isn't doing hiomself any favors behaving like a child.

Kahn can die happily knowing he killed AM music programming. Now he wants to kill FM. He is an obstructionist, and maybe the worst thing that has happened to radio in the last 30 years.

 

[vsa]

In addition to the Radio World link that was offered above:
http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/03_rwf_kahn.shtml

I'd like to add the comment below from Leonard Kahn, from:
http://www.wrathofkahn.org/wst_page5.html

---------------------

"So Dear Reader, you know what I really was doing. Giving iBiquity a good old NEW YORK I DOUBLE, DOUBLE DARE YOU.

Furthermore, if Radio World really was confused by my July 25th FCC Filing how could it stay confused when they read my Aug. 16, 2005 Final Reply which summarized our position regarding the IBOC System.

"A proprietary system that literally jams neighboring stations, sounds like a poor phone connection, and DOESNT WORK AT ALL AT NIGHT and can NEVER provide the same nighttime service that the Public relies on from KSL, WOAI, WABC, WBZ, WCBS, WLW, WLS, WWL, KNX, WGN, WTOP, KFI, XETRA, KCBS, KNBR, WJR, KMOX, KOY, KRVN, KLAC, WRVA, etc., now offer every night of the year."

------------------------

I'm amazed at how much power some folks here ascribe to Leonard Kahn. One man single-handedly destroyed AM music radio? Really? This is a man to be feared!

Additionally, reading all of this Leonard Kahn bashing here, it should be noted that earlier this year Kahn filed suit against a host of defendants, named and unnamed, in a U.S. district court in southern New York. Kahn has requested a jury trial. Defendants include iBiquity, Lucent, Clear Channel and numerous "John and Jane Does" who may be possible co-conspirators. Charges include multiple violations of the Sherman anti-trust act, defamation, and "tortious interference with contract." The "tortious interference with contract" may be a reference to a signed CAM-D testing & development agreement with WADO in New York on which Univision (David, are you reading this?) renegged after they purchased the station. The lawsuit suggests that iBiquity, and its many development partners, seek a monopoly on the manufacture of a radio transmission and receiving apparatus, and have conspired to keep alternative systems from consideration.

It is no surprise to see some Kahn bashing here. However, since a lawsuit is proceeding, it might be wise to temper some of the bashing around here, unless some folks here don't mind adding to the body of evidence.
 

 

[autopaint-1]

"It is no surprise to see some Kahn bashing here. However, since a lawsuit is proceeding, it might be wise to temper some of the bashing around here, unless some folks here don't mind adding to the body of evidence.
"

Why, is he going to bring suit against autopaint-1 on the message board for expressing his opinion? Give me a break. Yes Kahn was a major factor in the fall of AM stereo. When AM stereo was a viable option there were any numbers of systems such as Belar, Harris, Magnavox, Motorola & Kahn. Eventually Motorola won the stereo competition but Kahn (The only one of all competitors) wouldn't step aside. Manufacturers and station owners don’t want to have to deal with dual systems. Read his web board. It's like reading the writings of a paranoid conspiratorial theorist.

 

[vsa]

I recall numerous Los Angeles radio stations running Motorolas' AM stereo system back in the day. I suppose Kahn forced all of them to turn off their stereo systems against their will, right? AM stereo died for many reasons. Leonard Kahn was not one of them.

Granted, Kahn is outspoken about his views - as you and all of us here are.

I know, you've gotta have a scapegoat!
 

 

[autopaint-1]

Uhhh friend, may I call you friend? Motorola's system was C-Quam. That is THE SYSTEM, which won out over the competition. HArris, Belar, Magnavox went away. Only Mr. Kahn wouldn't give up and battled AM stereo right to its end in the radio junkbox. Here's a line from Wikipedia about the subject;

In the end, the two main systems that ended up battling it out to the death were the Kahn system and the Motorola C-Quam system. Eventually the C-Quam system became the FCC Standard for AM Stereo broadcasting. Yet Kahn was still allowed to broadcast their system and they did, to the destruction of AM stereo. Lawsuits don't help. Oh I read that Kahns system could be used to light an AM stereo light (Like C-Quam) but I never saw it in action. Interesting WNBC I believe used Kahn but switched to C-Quam at some point. I guess not everyone was thrilled with that system, which later became the basis for the power side. I saw one in the old equipment, no longer used rack at the WMCA transmitter site a few years ago.

 

[davideduardo]

I recall numerous Los Angeles radio stations running Motorolas' AM stereo system back in the day. I suppose Kahn forced all of them to turn off their stereo systems against their will, right? AM stereo died for many reasons. Leonard Kahn was not one of them.

AM stereo was to be approved around 1978. At that time, AM still had over half the national audience, and many successful music stations. Kahn came after the FCC process and went to court, making AM stereo go through a near-5-year delay in which time AM lost its viability as a music medium to FM, and never could have recovered because AM stereo in 1982 or 1983 (not even considering a severl-year deployment process) was too little and too late. The window of opportunity had closed, all due to Kahn's whining and legal manipulation of the process.

The death of AM music,a nd, eventually, the root cause for the death of AM can be laid directly on Kahn's doorstep.

 

[davideduardo]

Additionally, reading all of this Leonard Kahn bashing here, it should be noted that earlier this year Kahn filed suit against a host of defendants, named and unnamed, in a U.S. district court in southern New York. Kahn has requested a jury trial. Defendants include iBiquity, Lucent, Clear Channel and numerous "John and Jane Does" who may be possible co-conspirators. Charges include multiple violations of the Sherman anti-trust act, defamation, and "tortious interference with contract." The "tortious interference with contract" may be a reference to a signed CAM-D testing & development agreement with WADO in New York on which Univision (David, are you reading this?) renegged after they purchased the station. The lawsuit suggests that iBiquity, and its many development partners, seek a monopoly on the manufacture of a radio transmission and receiving apparatus, and have conspired to keep alternative systems from consideration.

Univision (which was Hispanic Broadcasting and Heftel Broadcasting before merging with Univsion) has been an HD supporter and investor from the beginning. We did have a Kahn Power Side, but it got inserted in the dumpster in Carlstadt when we were preparing to go to 50 kw days.

The station was purchased by the current company in 1993 and has been under the same ownership ever since (although we have had 2 mergers). Kahn's system did not exist in 1993.

 

[davideduardo]

"A proprietary system that literally jams neighboring stations, sounds like a poor phone connection, and DOESNT WORK AT ALL AT NIGHT and can NEVER provide the same nighttime service that the Public relies on from KSL, WOAI, WABC, WBZ, WCBS, WLW, WLS, WWL, KNX, WGN, WTOP, KFI, XETRA, KCBS, KNBR, WJR, KMOX, KOY, KRVN, KLAC, WRVA, etc., now offer every night of the year."

Funny. KOY has no skywave coverage. It is a 1 kw station on 1230 in Phoenix, and can barely be heard 15 miles on groundwave. Nights on 1230 is a cacaphony of sound, with dozens of stations chewing each other up anywhere in the USA.

WRVA has no skywave service. It covers Richmond, and the signal goes out over the Atlantic, with the rest headed into the mountains and tons of interference from other stations on 1140.

KLAC is a 570 station in LA, which is badly chewed up by KVI, SLC and several Mexicans even at the edge of its groundwave signal at night. It has no skywave coverage area.

WTOP has such bad coverage that it moved its news and talk format to FM this year, and there is no useful skywave on this one due to huge internatinal interference and the fact that 1500 is almost a shortwave frequency... covered with signals at night. KSL has done the same thing... putting an FM simulcat on the air to fill in the local coverage areas and to compensate for the fact that anyone under 45 won't listen to AM these days.

XETRA is not guaranteed US coverage... it is protected to the Mexican border. In any case, it has long ceased to be a viable night signal in the US due to Vancouver, Flagstaff, etc. Even Mexico put 100 kw XEN up against them.

This list is foolish. Many of the stations have no useful night coverage, and others have no useful listening outside the ground coverage area. It may heve been relevant 20 years ago, but I even doubt that. Really dumb post.

 

[vsa]

AUTOPAINT-1 WROTE: "Uhhh friend, may I call you friend?"

Of course you can. Nothing here is meant personally. We're debating a flawed system.

My point is: who forced anyone to ultimately shut off their Motorola C-QUAM systems? I know some stations still run it. Most of the arguments posted by iBiquity supporters argue that AM is so inferior for noise and audio-quality reasons that it can not survive without HD Radio. If that's the case, AM Stereo could not possibly have made any difference. So which is it? Are you saying AM would be thriving with oodles of young listeners if Kahn had only relented immediately?

DAVID WROTE: "...KOY...KLAC...WTOP...WRVA...XETRA..."

I'm sure Kahn was referring to KOY when it was at 550. It was moved to 910 briefly before CC moved it yet again to 1230. I agree with you on KLAC. XETRA blankets the western U-S at night. I don't have first hand expereience with WRVA and WTOP. I notice how you picked your stations carefully, ignoring the rest of the flame-throwers on the list.

 

[davideduardo]

AUTOPAINT-1 WROTE: "Uhhh friend, may I call you friend?"

Of course you can. Nothing here is meant personally. We're debating a flawed system.

My point is: who forced anyone to ultimately shut off their Motorola C-QUAM systems? I know some stations still run it. Most of the arguments posted by iBiquity supporters argue that AM is so inferior for noise and audio-quality reasons that it can not survive without HD Radio. If that's the case, AM Stereo could not possibly have made any difference. So which is it? Are you saying AM would be thriving with oodles of young listeners if Kahn had only relented immediately?

DAVID WROTE: "...KOY...KLAC...WTOP...WRVA...XETRA..."

I'm sure Kahn was referring to KOY when it was at 550. It was moved to 910 briefly before CC moved it yet again to 1230. I agree with you on KLAC. XETRA blankets the western U-S at night. I don't have first hand expereience with WRVA and WTOP. I notice how you picked your stations carefully, ignoring the rest of the flame-throwers on the list.

KOY on 550 had no skywave signal. It was (and is as KFYI) 1 kw at night, and the signals from Bakersfield, Texas, Colorado, Chihuahua, etc. ate it up. When I lived at 77th and Sheridan in Scottsdale, it was often unlistenable at night.

XETRA is not a good night signal, as it protects the 710 site in Van Nuys by shooting most of the signal NW, also protecting CBU at the same time (CBU being a primary on 690). As a Mexican station, its signal is only protected up to the US border, any way... it never has, for example, a usable night signal in the Coachella Vally, as it protects 690 in Montreal, as well.

These are two examples of how wrong you are.

There are only 24 of the old 1-A clear channels, of which WBZ, WLS, WABC, KSL and KFI are part. the other 4785 stations do not, with one or two exceptions, have any usable skywave signal. And the clears, today, have so much interference that most have little useful coverage... not to mention the fact that it has been 50 years or more since nights on AM have been revenue or audience leaders.

 

[vsa]

I agree that much of the night-time AM band is a jumble of noise. But, I do get these distant stations, among others, easily and clearly at night where I live in Southern California:

KNBR 680 San Francisco
KDWN 720 Las Vegas
KCBS 740 San Fransisco
KKOB 770 Albuquerque
KOH 780 Reno
KGO 810 San Franscisco
KXNT 840 Las Vegas
KDXU 890 Cedar City, Utah
KFBK 1530 Sacramento

All of these and other quality stations would be lost with night-time HD operations.

 

[IBOCRocks]

I agree that much of the night-time AM band is a jumble of noise. But, I do get these distant stations, among others, easily and clearly at night where I live in Southern California:

KNBR 680 San Francisco
KDWN 720 Las Vegas
KCBS 740 San Fransisco
KKOB 770 Albuquerque
KOH 780 Reno
KGO 810 San Franscisco
KXNT 840 Las Vegas
KDXU 890 Cedar City, Utah
KFBK 1530 Sacramento

All of these and other quality stations would be lost with night-time HD operations.

I would LOVE to see a blind poll of Americans to see how people would respond to this question:

"Are you interested in listening to radio programming from stations in other parts of the country at night?"

My bet? You'll get very few who answer yes.

Not many people yet care about HD Radio. It's a lot like DX'ing that way. Interestingly, BPL will potentially cause even more problems, yet I don't see "SayNoToBPL" posting anywhere.

 

[dbdigital]

In addition to the Radio World link that was offered above:
http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/special-report/03_rwf_kahn.shtml

I'd like to add the comment below from Leonard Kahn, from:
http://www.wrathofkahn.org/wst_page5.html

---------------------

"So Dear Reader, you know what I really was doing. Giving iBiquity a good old NEW YORK I DOUBLE, DOUBLE DARE YOU.

Furthermore, if Radio World really was confused by my July 25th FCC Filing how could it stay confused when they read my Aug. 16, 2005 Final Reply which summarized our position regarding the IBOC System.

"A proprietary system that literally jams neighboring stations, sounds like a poor phone connection, and DOESNT WORK AT ALL AT NIGHT and can NEVER provide the same nighttime service that the Public relies on from KSL, WOAI, WABC, WBZ, WCBS, WLW, WLS, WWL, KNX, WGN, WTOP, KFI, XETRA, KCBS, KNBR, WJR, KMOX, KOY, KRVN, KLAC, WRVA, etc., now offer every night of the year."

------------------------

I'm amazed at how much power some folks here ascribe to Leonard Kahn. One man single-handedly destroyed AM music radio? Really? This is a man to be feared!

Additionally, reading all of this Leonard Kahn bashing here, it should be noted that earlier this year Kahn filed suit against a host of defendants, named and unnamed, in a U.S. district court in southern New York. Kahn has requested a jury trial. Defendants include iBiquity, Lucent, Clear Channel and numerous "John and Jane Does" who may be possible co-conspirators. Charges include multiple violations of the Sherman anti-trust act, defamation, and "tortious interference with contract." The "tortious interference with contract" may be a reference to a signed CAM-D testing & development agreement with WADO in New York on which Univision (David, are you reading this?) renegged after they purchased the station. The lawsuit suggests that iBiquity, and its many development partners, seek a monopoly on the manufacture of a radio transmission and receiving apparatus, and have conspired to keep alternative systems from consideration.

It is no surprise to see some Kahn bashing here. However, since a lawsuit is proceeding, it might be wise to temper some of the bashing around here, unless some folks here don't mind adding to the body of evidence.

I totally agree with Leonard Kahn's lawsuit. There are so many unanswered questions with regard to the eager, unchallenged adoption of iBiquity's HD Radio by the FCC over alternative systems.

Having said that, I feel Mr. Kahn needs to be more forth-coming on his CAM-D system. We need to know how it works, what are the test results, what his plans are for its implimentation, etc. I did write one of the radio stations using it for some first hand info, but haven't heard back from them.

Someone accused CAM-D of being nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Unless Mr. Kahn or a station engineer who has been working with it says otherwise, I have to believe that their may be some truth in the accusation.

As for attacking HD Radio, that's easy to do.

db

 

[davideduardo]

I totally agree with Leonard Kahn's lawsuit. There are so many unanswered questions with regard to the eager, unchallenged adoption of iBiquity's HD Radio by the FCC over alternative systems.

Having said that, I feel Mr. Kahn needs to be more forth-coming on his CAM-D system. We need to know how it works, what are the test results, what his plans are for its implimentation, etc. I did write one of the radio stations using it for some first hand info, but haven't heard back from them.

Someone accused CAM-D of being nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Unless Mr. Kahn or a station engineer who has been working with it says otherwise, I have to believe that their may be some truth in the accusation.

As for attacking HD Radio, that's easy to do.

db

Leonard killed AM music radio. Now he wants to kill AM totally. Does he not realize that under 45 years of age, less than 10% of the people are listening to AM? It is going to be over permanently if he tries to stop HD.

The HD system has been in development for 16 years. The FCC has hardly proceeded fast... unless you consider two decades undluly precipitous to make a decision.

CanD is worthless, even if it works. The manufacturers in China and S. E. Asia will go with a system that has AM and FM on one chip. Otherwise, they will simply not put any AM system in the new radios. Cam D has no reliable testing,a nd no receiver or broadcaster interest.

 

[Chuck]

CanD is worthless, even if it works. The manufacturers in China and S. E. Asia will go with a system that has AM and FM on one chip. Otherwise, they will simply not put any AM system in the new radios. Cam D has no reliable testing,a nd no receiver or broadcaster interest.

Actually, it is possible that one chip can be used to decode a variety of different standards. HDTV has 18 of them that your ATSC TV tuner must cope with, so that isn't really a valid argument. In fact, the possibility of several digital radio systems coexisting peacefully in one radio is more likely than not. They're already doing it with satellite radios.

But, to make such a chip would require Leonard to reveal how his system works. So far, he hasn't done that. As has been beaten into the ground around here, there simply are no receivers, and Kahn has been very silent about any technical details. A few demonstrations might go a long way to see if his system really works. So far, the only implementations I’ve heard of have really just been using his Power Side technology, which seems to help analog signals, but isn’t a digital standard at all.

 

[davideduardo]

CanD is worthless, even if it works. The manufacturers in China and S. E. Asia will go with a system that has AM and FM on one chip. Otherwise, they will simply not put any AM system in the new radios. Cam D has no reliable testing,a nd no receiver or broadcaster interest.

Actually, it is possible that one chip can be used to decode a variety of different standards. HDTV has 18 of them that your ATSC TV tuner must cope with, so that isn't really a valid argument. In fact, the possibility of several digital radio systems coexisting peacefully in one radio is more likely than not. They're already doing it with satellite radios.

But, to make such a chip would require Leonard to reveal how his system works. So far, he hasn't done that. As has been beaten into the ground around here, there simply are no receivers, and Kahn has been very silent about any technical details. A few demonstrations might go a long way to see if his system really works. So far, the only implementations I’ve heard of have really just been using his Power Side technology, which seems to help analog signals, but isn’t a digital standard at all.

I don't think iBiqity is going to license the technology so any other system can be incorporated. The owners of iBiquity likely would not stand for it. This is why I said there is only going to be a one-chip solution. And that one chip must be iBiquity HD, and nobody can force the licencing of the chip technology or patents to permit a mixed system chip.

The satellite project is a work in progress, with the issues related to different bands and stationary vs. non-stationary satellites, so is not comparable.

Powerside does not help analog signals. We had one years ago on WADO, and it sounded strange, particulary with asymetrical compressed audio. It now resides, I believe, in the depths of the marshlands of New Jersey (actually, it went in a dumpster with other construction debris, but the marshland idea is so much more appropriate and Sopranos-like).

 

[vsa]

DAVID WROTE: "I don't think iBiqity is going to license the technology so any other system can be incorporated. The owners of iBiquity likely would not stand for it."

That's what HD Radio is all about - a futile effort to recoup millions of dollars poorly-invested by iBiquity's stakeholders. Ibiquity supporters will die trying to ram it down our throats.

I know and work with a great number of radio people in Los Angeles. HD Radio is not even on THEIR radar screens, let alone getting any attention from the public. Welcome to the real world.

DAVID WROTE: "Powerside does not help analog signals. We had one years ago on WADO, and it sounded strange, particulary with asymetrical compressed audio. It now resides, I believe, in the depths of the marshlands of New Jersey (actually, it went in a dumpster with other construction debris, but the marshland idea is so much more appropriate and Sopranos-like)."

Just more Kahn-bashing.

Kahn is no fool. I doubt he'll release details of how CAM-D works before being awarded a patent. There are some folks who just might be tempted to steal it.

 

[davideduardo]

DAVID WROTE: "I don't think iBiqity is going to license the technology so any other system can be incorporated. The owners of iBiquity likely would not stand for it."

That's what HD Radio is all about - a futile effort to recoup millions of dollars poorly-invested by iBiquity's stakeholders. Ibiquity supporters will die trying to ram it down our throats.

I know and work with a great number of radio people in Los Angeles. HD Radio is not even on THEIR radar screens, let alone getting any attention from the public. Welcome to the real world.

DAVID WROTE: "Powerside does not help analog signals. We had one years ago on WADO, and it sounded strange, particulary with asymetrical compressed audio. It now resides, I believe, in the depths of the marshlands of New Jersey (actually, it went in a dumpster with other construction debris, but the marshland idea is so much more appropriate and Sopranos-like)."

Just more Kahn-bashing.

Kahn is no fool. I doubt he'll release details of how CAM-D works before being awarded a patent. There are some folks who just might be tempted to steal it.

HD is owned by most of the larger broadcassters in the US, along with a couple of investment banking concerns and Intel. The objective was to develop a viable digital system for both AM and FM. There is no "cash in the chips" interest, and the desire to make a profit is simply to make the company self sustaining and to produce a payoff for the non-radio investors as royalty money comes in. For Intel, the payoff is in the creation and sale of chips that are better than today's versions.

All that I hear anyone talk about today is HD, especially since the marketing campaign started a week ago Monday. Everyone is working on rampoing up the HD 2 channels, and looking forward to when these can be revenue contributors. We got plenty of HD2 receivers and have them in all the programming related offices.

I don't think yoiu know many people in LA radio, judging by that comment.

The Powerside sounded horrible. I thought so, our corporate DoE thought so. About everyone who is not Leonard Kahn thought so...

Kahn is more than a fool. He is a destructive element who already killed music on AM, and is trying to kill the entire band now.