Inventor of comepting technology thinks IBOC violates FCC rules.

[dbdigital]

I totally agree with Leonard Kahn's lawsuit. There are so many unanswered questions with regard to the eager, unchallenged adoption of iBiquity's HD Radio by the FCC over alternative systems.

Having said that, I feel Mr. Kahn needs to be more forth-coming on his CAM-D system. We need to know how it works, what are the test results, what his plans are for its implimentation, etc. I did write one of the radio stations using it for some first hand info, but haven't heard back from them.

Someone accused CAM-D of being nothing more than smoke and mirrors. Unless Mr. Kahn or a station engineer who has been working with it says otherwise, I have to believe that their may be some truth in the accusation.

As for attacking HD Radio, that's easy to do.

db

Leonard killed AM music radio. Now he wants to kill AM totally. Does he not realize that under 45 years of age, less than 10% of the people are listening to AM? It is going to be over permanently if he tries to stop HD.

The HD system has been in development for 16 years. The FCC has hardly proceeded fast... unless you consider two decades undluly precipitous to make a decision.

CanD is worthless, even if it works. The manufacturers in China and S. E. Asia will go with a system that has AM and FM on one chip. Otherwise, they will simply not put any AM system in the new radios. Cam D has no reliable testing,a nd no receiver or broadcaster interest.

Asian manufacturers will make and install any chips a client asks for. Given that Canada is swinging toward DRM and Mexico is still testing DRM and IBOC, it may be that a radio accommodating both technologies would be the best solution for the Western Hemisphere.

One of the pdf docs on the DRM website even suggests that the two systems could co-exist on one chip.

db

 

[davideduardo]

Asian manufacturers will make and install any chips a client asks for. Given that Canada is swinging toward DRM and Mexico is still testing DRM and IBOC, it may be that a radio accommodating both technologies would be the best solution for the Western Hemisphere.

One of the pdf docs on the DRM website even suggests that the two systems could co-exist on one chip.

db

Most products for the US market are not sold elsewhere.

DRM is not backwardly compatible, and Canada has about half the AMs it had 20 years ago. No significance there.

I get the billetins of the CIRT from Mexico, and there is noo discussion of DRM, but there are HD stations on the air right now. Brazil, bigger than Canada and Mexico combined, has seleced HD and dozens of major stations are going on the air.

Nobody is going to go through the trouble of redesigning the HD chip for technologies with no western hemisphere demand. The efforts right now, thus the Intel alliance and investment, are in making the DAC more efficient... adding anything that increases even mi nimally power consumption or slows design efforts will be discarded.

Now, go back to studying the LA ratings to see if you get it right. In the sales demos, the Top 5, in order, are KSCA, KLVE, KCBS, KRCD and KLAX. No KFI there.

 

[dbdigital]

Asian manufacturers will make and install any chips a client asks for. Given that Canada is swinging toward DRM and Mexico is still testing DRM and IBOC, it may be that a radio accommodating both technologies would be the best solution for the Western Hemisphere.

One of the pdf docs on the DRM website even suggests that the two systems could co-exist on one chip.

db

Most products for the US market are not sold elsewhere.

DRM is not backwardly compatible, and Canada has about half the AMs it had 20 years ago. No significance there.

I get the billetins of the CIRT from Mexico, and there is noo discussion of DRM, but there are HD stations on the air right now. Brazil, bigger than Canada and Mexico combined, has seleced HD and dozens of major stations are going on the air.

Nobody is going to go through the trouble of redesigning the HD chip for technologies with no western hemisphere demand. The efforts right now, thus the Intel alliance and investment, are in making the DAC more efficient... adding anything that increases even mi nimally power consumption or slows design efforts will be discarded.

Now, go back to studying the LA ratings to see if you get it right. In the sales demos, the Top 5, in order, are KSCA, KLVE, KCBS, KRCD and KLAX. No KFI there.

I'm going by the ratings chart of Radio & Records which, at this moment, list KFI as #1 in L.A. Gary Lycan in his OC Register column last Sunday also mentioned KFI as #1.

But, of course, David Eduardo, holy see (or is it hear) of radio, corporate media apologist and IBOC shill must be right. Why? Because he says so.

db

 

[davideduardo]

I'm going by the ratings chart of Radio & Records which, at this moment, list KFI as #1 in L.A. Gary Lycan in his OC Register column last Sunday also mentioned KFI as #1.

But, of course, David Eduardo, holy see (or is it hear) of radio, corporate media apologist and IBOC shill must be right. Why? Because he says so.

No, ARBITRON says so. I get my numbers right off the Maximiser data, not from a magazine.

However, you will note that the R&R chart shows both stations in a tie with the same share. In the case of a tie, all the trades list the two tied stations in alphabetical order. The charts on All Acess, Inside Radio and RBR also all show KLVE tied in 12+ with KFI at #1.

In 12+, which nobody buys, there is a tie. In all the sales demos, KLVE, KSCA, KCBS, KRCD and KCBS-Fm all beat KFI.

In 12+ cume, KLVE beats KFI.

If you are going to make comments about the workings of the industry, try to learn first how it works. If you do not know, as is obvious from the last couple of posts, ask. Even those of us who find your views on HD totally whackede would be glad to help you understand the how and why of radio so that you can see why reality is not in agreement with your perceptions.

 

[dbdigital]

I'm going by the ratings chart of Radio & Records which, at this moment, list KFI as #1 in L.A. Gary Lycan in his OC Register column last Sunday also mentioned KFI as #1.

But, of course, David Eduardo, holy see (or is it hear) of radio, corporate media apologist and IBOC shill must be right. Why? Because he says so.

No, ARBITRON says so. I get my numbers right off the Maximiser data, not from a magazine.

However, you will note that the R&R chart shows both stations in a tie with the same share. In the case of a tie, all the trades list the two tied stations in alphabetical order. The charts on All Acess, Inside Radio and RBR also all show KLVE tied in 12+ with KFI at #1.

In 12+, which nobody buys, there is a tie. In all the sales demos, KLVE, KSCA, KCBS, KRCD and KCBS-Fm all beat KFI.

In 12+ cume, KLVE beats KFI.

If you are going to make comments about the workings of the industry, try to learn first how it works. If you do not know, as is obvious from the last couple of posts, ask. Even those of us who find your views on HD totally whackede would be glad to help you understand the how and why of radio so that you can see why reality is not in agreement with your perceptions.

All you're telling me is that KFI and KLVE are tied. That isn't the same as KLVE being #1. My information came off of the R&R website which was updated two weeks ago.

And I do understand the radio business even though, at present, I don't work in it. I did, briefly, many years ago.

What I don't have or subscribe to, as you do, is an Arbitron book and quite frankly I couldn't be bothered reading long lists of figures about TLE, TLT, TSL and so on. My eyes would glaze over before I hit page 2.

As for being whacked or "whackede" as you put it (I understood what you meant), what I find whacked is someone who is supposedly a radio exec in a major market continuously lurking around a forum like this waiting to pounce (or is it search and destroy) on every opinion he disagrees with. Soon this site will become the David Eduardo show with you as both host and sole contributor.

You have a bad habit of turning every discussion into a pissing contest. I refuse to let you push me in that direction.

My suggestion to you is to get your nose out of the Arbitron book for a while and get some sun.

db

 

[davideduardo]

I'm going by the ratings chart of Radio & Records which, at this moment, list KFI as #1 in L.A. Gary Lycan in his OC Register column last Sunday also mentioned KFI as #1.

But, of course, David Eduardo, holy see (or is it hear) of radio, corporate media apologist and IBOC shill must be right. Why? Because he says so.

No, ARBITRON says so. I get my numbers right off the Maximiser data, not from a magazine.

However, you will note that the R&R chart shows both stations in a tie with the same share. In the case of a tie, all the trades list the two tied stations in alphabetical order. The charts on All Acess, Inside Radio and RBR also all show KLVE tied in 12+ with KFI at #1.

In 12+, which nobody buys, there is a tie. In all the sales demos, KLVE, KSCA, KCBS, KRCD and KCBS-Fm all beat KFI.

In 12+ cume, KLVE beats KFI.

If you are going to make comments about the workings of the industry, try to learn first how it works. If you do not know, as is obvious from the last couple of posts, ask. Even those of us who find your views on HD totally whackede would be glad to help you understand the how and why of radio so that you can see why reality is not in agreement with your perceptions.

All you're telling me is that KFI and KLVE are tied. That isn't the same as KLVE being #1. My information came off of the R&R website which was updated two weeks ago.

And I do understand the radio business even though, at present, I don't work in it. I did, briefly, many years ago.

What I don't have or subscribe to, as you do, is an Arbitron book and quite frankly I couldn't be bothered reading long lists of figures about TLE, TLT, TSL and so on. My eyes would glaze over before I hit page 2.

As for being whacked or "whackede" as you put it (I understood what you meant), what I find whacked is someone who is supposedly a radio exec in a major market continuously lurking around a forum like this waiting to pounce (or is it search and destroy) on every opinion he disagrees with. Soon this site will become the David Eduardo show with you as both host and sole contributor.

You have a bad habit of turning every discussion into a pissing contest. I refuse to let you push me in that direction.

My suggestion to you is to get your nose out of the Arbitron book for a while and get some sun.

[EDIT] I referenced KLVE as "#1" and you said it was not #1 because KFI is. The fact is, both are tied in 12+ (which is a useless demo, anyway) so both are #1. KLVE can say it is #1 and so can KFI, if anyone really cares about 12+. Which, at the end of the day, they don't.

We are fortunate and relieved to know you did not last long in radio. Consider yourself lucky, also, because the things you do not care about are the most important things to a radio station. Such as ratings, which are the currency which establishes buys and rates.

I did not have to go to the "book" (there is no book anymore, anyway) as I know the basic numbers from first view. What R&R publishes is just a single page they give for free (and worth the price). we are paid to know how we stand, where we are going and how we are going to deliver audiences. That is what the job is about, in case you never got it.

Now you want to tell me what to do with my time. I am not telling you to go away because you say so many dumb and totally incorrect things. However, when you do say things that are just wrong (like KLVE _not_ being #1) I will let you know. Maybe if you asked about things instead of making mostly wrong assumptions you would actually learn something. You do not have to agree with me on opinion, but on fact there is no "agreement" but just right or wrong.

R&R does not do ratings. So look at their data with a bit of skepticism, as the formats, owners and even numbers are often wrong. I know one Top 15 market where about a third of the data is wrong, and they never fix it...


[EDIT=name calling, inflamatory]

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

David wrote: "Are you dense or stupid? "

You are disrupting this board, and I have reported you to the moderators.

 

[davideduardo]

David wrote: "Are you dense or stupid? "

You are disrupting this board, and I have reported you to the moderators.

Disrupting the board?

You have posted countless fabrications about HD, using hearsay, assumptions and distortions besides downright lies. You are the disruptive force (hey, remember insisting there were NOT 1000 HD stations? Hhahaha).

Your new buddy, hd, posted that KLVE was Not #1 in LA when in fact, it is. I even explained it to him, and he continued to insist it was not #1. That is, by definition, being dense or lacking in intelligence. When confirmation is all over the Internet, a novice caught in a lie shoud recant, not argue.

It took us lots of work to make that #1 happen. To have someone who can not read a table say id did NOT happen requires correction.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

And it's Kahn's attitudes which have turned most of the industry against him. His web site is silly filled with anger and bitterness. I don't doubt Mr. Kahns abilities as an engineer, but he isn't doing hiomself any favors behaving like a child.

Many of the HD radio supporters here repeatedly claim that anyone who does not agree with them is "behaving like a child" and "ignorent" etc. etc. etc.
It is clear from HD supporters posts who is uninformed, childish, ignorent, and unable to accept facts, discussion and opinions, contrary to their own biased, self promoting, hype and views. Childish public rants against DXers, and HD radio opponents, embarass their parents.

 

[davideduardo]

And it's Kahn's attitudes which have turned most of the industry against him. His web site is silly filled with anger and bitterness. I don't doubt Mr. Kahns abilities as an engineer, but he isn't doing hiomself any favors behaving like a child.

Many of the HD radio supporters here repeatedly claim that anyone who does not agree with them is "behaving like a child" and "ignorent" etc. etc. etc.
It is clear from HD supporters posts who is uninformed, childish, ignorent, and unable to accept facts, discussion and opinions, contrary to their own biased, self promoting, hype and views. Childish public rants against DXers, and HD radio opponents, embarass their parents.

First, DXers have no rights in this at all. When they issue opinions based on DXing rather than local service, I find them totally out of bounds. DXers make a hobby out of listening for stations outside thier protected, interference free contours. They have no legal or moral right to be able to do that, especially if improving the service of AM and FM locally is the cause.

HD opponants who post things that are untrue like:
- Articles form a year or so ago before the current firmware and design specs
- Defense of skywave AM listening which benefits less than 50 stations
- Defense of adjacent channel local reception which even the FCC does not protect
- Comments based on never having listened.
- Refusal to believe that consumer products decrease in price as marketing incredases
- Refusal to realize 64 dbu is the PRACTICAL limit for 95% of FM listening and the HD signal is good to that contoru.
- Refusal to realize that AM staitons are limited by urban noise levels,a nd that often HD edxtends the usable AM contoru
- Failure to recognize that AM is now almost totally the domain of people over 55, and advertisers shun that demo.
- Failure to see that AM will die in another 5 to 7 years if we do nothing.
- Inability to see that HD-2 channels ad diversity
- Do not see that terrestrial radio is free
- Don't realize there is no model for paid HD
- Don't understand that Arbitron is believed in by time buyers and is the only pricing model we have.
- Don't see that the consumer marketing just began 13 days ago

... are all twisting the truth or downright lieing.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

And it's Kahn's attitudes which have turned most of the industry against him. His web site is silly filled with anger and bitterness. I don't doubt Mr. Kahns abilities as an engineer, but he isn't doing hiomself any favors behaving like a child.

Many of the HD radio supporters here repeatedly claim that anyone who does not agree with them is "behaving like a child" and "ignorent" etc. etc. etc.
It is clear from HD supporters posts who is uninformed, childish, ignorent, and unable to accept facts, discussion and opinions, contrary to their own biased, self promoting, hype and views. Childish public rants against DXers, and HD radio opponents, embarass their parents.

First, DXers have no rights in this at all. When they issue opinions based on DXing rather than local service, I find them totally out of bounds. DXers make a hobby out of listening for stations outside thier protected, interference free contours. They have no legal or moral right to be able to do that, especially if improving the service of AM and FM locally is the cause.

HD opponants who post things that are untrue like:
- Articles form a year or so ago before the current firmware and design specs
- Defense of skywave AM listening which benefits less than 50 stations
- Defense of adjacent channel local reception which even the FCC does not protect
- Comments based on never having listened.
- Refusal to believe that consumer products decrease in price as marketing incredases
- Refusal to realize 64 dbu is the PRACTICAL limit for 95% of FM listening and the HD signal is good to that contoru.
- Refusal to realize that AM staitons are limited by urban noise levels,a nd that often HD edxtends the usable AM contoru
- Failure to recognize that AM is now almost totally the domain of people over 55, and advertisers shun that demo.
- Failure to see that AM will die in another 5 to 7 years if we do nothing.
- Inability to see that HD-2 channels ad diversity
- Do not see that terrestrial radio is free
- Don't realize there is no model for paid HD
- Don't understand that Arbitron is believed in by time buyers and is the only pricing model we have.
- Don't see that the consumer marketing just began 13 days ago

... are all twisting the truth or downright lieing.

Radio listeners have the same rights as any other citizen, DXer or not and no matter what your majesty claims. Who died and left you Emperor?
Radio stations are licensed by the FCC to serve the public, and the highest powered stations are committed to serve wide areas, including secondary coverage. If they only wish only to serve local areas, they are in violation, and should swap frequencies and powers with local stations, who want the additional coverage to serve the wider public.

"1) Class A station. A Class A station is an unlimited time station
that operates on a clear channel and is designed to render primary and
secondary service over an extended area and at relatively long distances
from its transmitter. Its primary service area is protected from
objectionable interference from other stations on the same and adjacent
channels, and its secondary service area is protected from interference
from other stations on the same channel. (See Sec. 73.182). The
operating power shall not be less than 10 kW nor more than 50 kW. (Also
see Sec. 73.25(a))."

From:
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2004/octqtr/47cfr73.21.htm

The same is true for the higher powered classes of FM stations.
It is clear that neither you or the broadcast cartel has any intention or interest in keeping their licensing commitments or promises to the government, FCC, or public.

Some of the public (who you claim have no rights) live in suburban or rural areas, between cities, and most or all of their listening necessarily comes from secondary coverage of radio stations which you incorrectly identify as "skywave" and DX. This would be even more true if you got your wish and all the local stations signed off to make way for the high powered stations that you have repeatedly and clearly stated only want to serve the most densely populated areas. You have declaired, backed up by your Arbitron that these people don't count and have no rights or say as Americans!

Emperor Arbitron, put your autocratic anti-American ideas where the sun don't shine!

The rest of what you claim is untrue is loaded with more of your defensive dribble, conjecture, personal intrepretations, projections and misdirection.
Your obsession with subjective Arbitron ratings, is just one case in point.

 

[autopaint-1]

So, I'd suggest you file a complain with the FCC at license renewal time. Express yourself to an agency that has the ability to take action, if your complain is valid that is.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I intend to, and my complaint is based on what is now published, public knowledge, and abuses of the cartel.

 

[autopaint-1]

Excellent. Good luck. I'm looking forward to reading your complaint and the resolution.

 

[davideduardo]

Radio listeners have the same rights as any other citizen, DXer or not and no matter what your majesty claims. Who died and left you Emperor?
Radio stations are licensed by the FCC to serve the public, and the highest powered stations are committed to serve wide areas, including secondary coverage. If they only wish only to serve local areas, they are in violation, and should swap frequencies and powers with local stations, who want the additional coverage to serve the wider public.

"1) Class A station. A Class A station is an unlimited time station
that operates on a clear channel and is designed to render primary and
secondary service over an extended area and at relatively long distances
from its transmitter. Its primary service area is protected from
objectionable interference from other stations on the same and adjacent
channels, and its secondary service area is protected from interference
from other stations on the same channel. (See Sec. 73.182). The
operating power shall not be less than 10 kW nor more than 50 kW. (Also
see Sec. 73.25(a))."

From:
The same is true for the higher powered classes of FM stations.
It is clear that neither you or the broadcast cartel has any intention or interest in keeping their licensing commitments or promises to the government, FCC, or public.

Some of the public (who you claim have no rights) live in suburban or rural areas, between cities, and most or all of their listening necessarily comes from secondary coverage of radio stations which you incorrectly identify as "skywave" and DX. This would be even more true if you got your wish and all the local stations signed off to make way for the high powered stations that you have repeatedly and clearly stated only want to serve the most densely populated areas. You have declaired, backed up by your Arbitron that these people don't count and have no rights or say as Americans!

Emperor Arbitron, put your autocratic anti-American ideas where the sun don't shine!

The rest of what you claim is untrue is loaded with more of your defensive dribble, conjecture, personal intrepretations, projections and misdirection.
Your obsession with subjective Arbitron ratings, is just one case in point.

The definition of 1-A AM service areas makes no reference to skywave. The fact is, the FCC has for 50+ years made local sevice to the city of license and immediate surrounding areas its prime concern, giving additional credit to localism in license renewal and license application time in the era when these things were reviewed.

An FM, even the most powerful full C at 100 kw at 2000 feet (remembering that the FCC does not protect grandfathered stations beyond the complying standard contour) has a local service area that is essentially one market or one market area.

The commitment to the FCC is and has been for the last 60 years to serve the city of license and the surrounding community. The requirements on ascertainment of community needs and issues are 100% based in the local community, not in distant ones with secondary or occasional service. Stations are required to serve listeners in the local comminities first and foremost.

Have you ever done a license applicaiton for a new station? I have done many. Have you ever done a license renewal? I have done many, going back to 1970. HAve you done community leader ascertainment? I have, interviewing perhaps 1000 different persons over the years. All this was done, as the FCC required, by taking into account the com munities and issues within 20 to 25 miles of the city of license or transmitter.

I never said I wanted high power AM stations to serve distant locations. Most stations in bigger cities that have less than 50 kw do not fully cover the local area (not a single AM in Washington DC covers the entire MSA day or night) and higher power is needed to cover the local area. Many stations with power inadequate to serve anyone should be eliminated so that the remaining stations can render better service.

Arbitron shows that there is very little listening outside the primary contours of stations. The problem is that many US stations have usable signals that do not even cover their local markets.

 

[IBOCRocks]

I intend to, and my complaint is based on what is now published, public knowledge, and abuses of the cartel.

The "cartel". That's funny.

cartel |kär?tel| noun an association of manufacturers or suppliers with the purpose of maintaining prices at a high level and restricting competition : the Colombian drug cartels.

Since iBiquity doesn't make the radios, thereby controlling what people will pay, they are not a cartel. Also, simply by the fact that HD Radio will be federally regulated, it couldn't be a cartel if it wanted to.

And you call pro-IBOC people ignorant. The "cartel" angle is plain stupid.

 

[IBOCRocks]

"1) Class A station. A Class A station is an unlimited time station
that operates on a clear channel and is designed to render primary and
secondary service over an extended area and at relatively long distances
from its transmitter. Its primary service area is protected from
objectionable interference from other stations on the same and adjacent
channels, and its secondary service area is protected from interference
from other stations on the same channel. (See Sec. 73.182). The
operating power shall not be less than 10 kW nor more than 50 kW. (Also
see Sec. 73.25(a))."

Where does it say that the license holder is required to serve a large area, and that they are in violation of any rule if they don't.

Yet another misleading statement from the anti-IBOC cartel.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The HD Radio Consortium fits your definition of "cartel" perfectly. They are a combination of manufacturers distributors, content suppliers, investors and promoters with substancial investments in the sucess of the proprietary HD Radio technology, patents, copyrights, and trade marks.

 

[IBOCRocks]

The HD Radio Consortium fits your definition of "cartel" perfectly. They are a combination of manufacturers distributors, content suppliers, investors and promoters with substancial investments in the sucess of the proprietary HD Radio technology, patents, copyrights, and trade marks.

That's where your fantasy world falls apart.

First: Manufacturers and distributors license the technology. The radio makers are not investors. Some content providers are investors (none a majority holder, and ALL are separate entities), but not all are.

The BIG bottom line is that nobody is required to use HD to conduct business. You can choose not to run it and not be adversely impacted.

The technology is proprietary, but can be licensed by anyone. That has been going on in business for years.

So again, you twist the truth to fit your distorted reality.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The HD Radio Consortium fits your definition of "cartel" perfectly. They are a combination of manufacturers distributors, content suppliers, investors and promoters with substancial investments in the sucess of the proprietary HD Radio technology, patents, copyrights, and trade marks.

That's where your fantasy world falls apart.

First: Manufacturers and distributors license the technology. The radio makers are not investors. Some content providers are investors (none a majority holder, and ALL are separate entities), but not all are.

The BIG bottom line is that nobody is required to use HD to conduct business. You can choose not to run it and not be adversely impacted.

The technology is proprietary, but can be licensed by anyone. That has been going on in business for years.

So again, you twist the truth to fit your distorted reality.

That still fits the definition of cartel. Your statement changes nothing. The fact that you might be able to avoid using the product does not make those that control it not a cartel.
See: Petroleum consortium = cartel.