Inventor of comepting technology thinks IBOC violates FCC rules.

[IBOCRocks]

The HD Radio Consortium fits your definition of "cartel" perfectly. They are a combination of manufacturers distributors, content suppliers, investors and promoters with substancial investments in the sucess of the proprietary HD Radio technology, patents, copyrights, and trade marks.

That's where your fantasy world falls apart.

First: Manufacturers and distributors license the technology. The radio makers are not investors. Some content providers are investors (none a majority holder, and ALL are separate entities), but not all are.

The BIG bottom line is that nobody is required to use HD to conduct business. You can choose not to run it and not be adversely impacted.

The technology is proprietary, but can be licensed by anyone. That has been going on in business for years.

So again, you twist the truth to fit your distorted reality.

That still fits the definition of cartel. Your statement changes nothing. The fact that you might be able to avoid using the product does not make those that control it not a cartel.
See: Petroleum consortium = cartel.

It fits your incorrect definition of cartel.

See: Pharmaceutical companies != cartel
Fraunhofer institute (you need to get MP3 licensing from them) != cartel
CD Player (licensed from Fischer, IIRC) != cartel

I could go on.

In all of the anti-IBOC propaganda I read, you are the ONLY ONE mentioning 'cartel'.

Maybe because it isn't true. But then again, in your odd, strange, alternate reality, anything is possible. You never did tell us where the truth was in the statement you made on your little blog about this site. Yet another lie, I assume.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

The HD Radio Consortium fits your definition of "cartel" perfectly. They are a combination of manufacturers distributors, content suppliers, investors and promoters with substancial investments in the sucess of the proprietary HD Radio technology, patents, copyrights, and trade marks.

That's where your fantasy world falls apart.

First: Manufacturers and distributors license the technology. The radio makers are not investors. Some content providers are investors (none a majority holder, and ALL are separate entities), but not all are.

The BIG bottom line is that nobody is required to use HD to conduct business. You can choose not to run it and not be adversely impacted.

The technology is proprietary, but can be licensed by anyone. That has been going on in business for years.

So again, you twist the truth to fit your distorted reality.

That still fits the definition of cartel. Your statement changes nothing. The fact that you might be able to avoid using the product does not make those that control it not a cartel.
See: Petroleum consortium = cartel.

It fits your incorrect definition of cartel.

See: Pharmaceutical companies != cartel
Fraunhofer institute (you need to get MP3 licensing from them) != cartel
CD Player (licensed from Fischer, IIRC) != cartel

I could go on.

In all of the anti-IBOC propaganda I read, you are the ONLY ONE mentioning 'cartel'.

Maybe because it isn't true. But then again, in your odd, strange, alternate reality, anything is possible. You never did tell us where the truth was in the statement you made on your little blog about this site. Yet another lie, I assume.

So you are calling those companies cartels?
How does that effect those that control and profit from HD Radio and whether it's controlled by a cartel?

 

[IBOCRocks]

The HD Radio Consortium fits your definition of "cartel" perfectly. They are a combination of manufacturers distributors, content suppliers, investors and promoters with substancial investments in the sucess of the proprietary HD Radio technology, patents, copyrights, and trade marks.

That's where your fantasy world falls apart.

First: Manufacturers and distributors license the technology. The radio makers are not investors. Some content providers are investors (none a majority holder, and ALL are separate entities), but not all are.

The BIG bottom line is that nobody is required to use HD to conduct business. You can choose not to run it and not be adversely impacted.

The technology is proprietary, but can be licensed by anyone. That has been going on in business for years.

So again, you twist the truth to fit your distorted reality.

That still fits the definition of cartel. Your statement changes nothing. The fact that you might be able to avoid using the product does not make those that control it not a cartel.
See: Petroleum consortium = cartel.

It fits your incorrect definition of cartel.

See: Pharmaceutical companies != cartel
Fraunhofer institute (you need to get MP3 licensing from them) != cartel
CD Player (licensed from Fischer, IIRC) != cartel

I could go on.

In all of the anti-IBOC propaganda I read, you are the ONLY ONE mentioning 'cartel'.

Maybe because it isn't true. But then again, in your odd, strange, alternate reality, anything is possible. You never did tell us where the truth was in the statement you made on your little blog about this site. Yet another lie, I assume.

So you are calling those companies cartels?
How does that effect those that control and profit from HD Radio and whether it's controlled by a cartel?

No, "!=" means does not equal. So I am NOT calling those companies cartels.

What I'm saying is those companies legally control licensing and receive profits from their products legally. Just like iBiquity.

You know, they do offer economics courses at local community colleges.

 

[davideduardo]

That still fits the definition of cartel. Your statement changes nothing. The fact that you might be able to avoid using the product does not make those that control it not a cartel.
See: Petroleum consortium = cartel.

OPEC is a cartel. With literally thousands of oil companies in the world, the extraction and redfining aspect is not a cartel. It is not even a monopoly or oligopoly.

 

[dbdigital]

David wrote: "Are you dense or stupid? "

You are disrupting this board, and I have reported you to the moderators.

Disrupting the board?

You have posted countless fabrications about HD, using hearsay, assumptions and distortions besides downright lies. You are the disruptive force (hey, remember insisting there were NOT 1000 HD stations? Hhahaha).

Your new buddy, hd, posted that KLVE was Not #1 in LA when in fact, it is. I even explained it to him, and he continued to insist it was not #1. That is, by definition, being dense or lacking in intelligence. When confirmation is all over the Internet, a novice caught in a lie shoud recant, not argue.

It took us lots of work to make that #1 happen. To have someone who can not read a table say id did NOT happen requires correction.

Listen, [EDIT], what I said was that I thought KFI was #1 in L.A. and so it is. You crow that KLVE is #1 as if no other station held that spot. Even at that, KLVE's rating is misleading as it would only be #1 among Hispanics, a demographic that listens to more radio than other groups. And since, as you say, KLVE is programmed for Hispanic females of a certain age bracket, that would only be a section of that demographic.

But L.A. has a widely diverse population and the fact that, KFI an AM station in a sea of FM stations, can hit #1 is nothing short of amazing.

[EDIT=personal attack]

db

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

David's something, isn't he ? You should see the warm reception he has gotten on rec.radio.shortwave ! He will say one thing over here, then the exact opposite over there, and vice-versa. What he is doing, is winning the war on words, but not logic - from what I have read, this is typical debating strategy. I am not sure, what he is getting out of it, except maybe he is hoping that morons won't see through this, or just as people have said on rec.radio.shortwave, he doesn't really care about the future of broadcasting.

But, I don't really have to win the war on words, because I already put in my 2-cents worth on Amazon, since I heard the HD Radio Cartel mention it on radio yesterday. Nice thing, Amazon is mirrored to MANY other review sites, and I will make sure, I hit all the rest !

 

[IBOCRocks]

David's something, isn't he ? You should see the warm reception he has gotten on rec.radio.shortwave ! He will say one thing over here, then the exact opposite over there, and vice-versa. What he is doing, is winning the war on words, but not logic - from what I have read, this is typical debating strategy. I am not sure, what he is getting out of it, except maybe he is hoping that morons won't see through this, or just as people have said on rec.radio.shortwave, he doesn't really care about the future of broadcasting.

But, I don't really have to win the war on words, because I already put in my 2-cents worth on Amazon, since I heard the HD Radio Cartel mention it on radio yesterday. Nice thing, Amazon is mirrored to MANY other review sites, and I will make sure, I hit all the rest !

This from a guy who openly admits to lying and manipulating consumer reviews. You're a funny little man!

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

"This from a guy who openly admits to lying and manipulating consumer reviews. You're a funny little man!"

Oh, where did this come from ? Care to back that up ? You are just upset about my post on Amazon, because you know what power comsumers have over there ! WOW, you are starting to sound like David ! And, whenever I look at reviews on Amazon, if I see at least two negative, but reasonable reviews, I will bypass that product.

 

[IBOCRocks]

"This from a guy who openly admits to lying and manipulating consumer reviews. You're a funny little man!"

Oh, where did this come from ? Care to back that up ? You are just upset about my post on Amazon, bwecause you know what power comsumers have over there ! WOW, you are starting to sound like David !

From the Amazon review:
"Note: HD Radio has become a hotly-debated topic, so I would suggest ignoring the negative votes, on any negative reviews."

How funny! I'm going to say bad things. But pay no attention to the negative votes! Really! I'm right!

I told you - if I were upset, I'd counter with a glowing review. That isn't necessary...especially since you added that first line. It screams "MY REVIEW IS BIASED".

I guess if you give a guy enough rope!

 

[davideduardo]

Listen, [EDIT] what I said was that I thought KFI was #1 in L.A. and so it is. You crow that KLVE is #1 as if no other station held that spot. Even at that, KLVE's rating is misleading as it would only be #1 among Hispanics, a demographic that listens to more radio than other groups. And since, as you say, KLVE is programmed for Hispanic females of a certain age bracket, that would only be a section of that demographic.

But L.A. has a widely diverse population and the fact that, KFI an AM station in a sea of FM stations, can hit #1 is nothing short of amazing.

db

[EDIT=personal attack]

No, that is not what happened. You are reconstructing the evidence. I said KLVE was #1, which is true. Tied with another or not, it is #1. You said it was not, that KFI was. the fact remains taht KLVE is #1.

The rest of your drivel is just totally whacked. A Black station appeals mostly to Blacks, An AAA station or a country station appeal mostly if not exclusively to non-Hispanic whites. Every format is limited by the extent of its partisan group. KLVE is limited because most Hispanics do not like AC, and 40% do not listen to Spanish radio, so it has the same challenges that any other station has. Further, for the Hispanic audience that is Spanish dominant we have 16 stations in many different formats dividing less than 30 shares. So it is harder to be #1, not easier.

As to it being "amazing" to find KFI at the top, please look at: WCC, WGN, WBZ, KDKA, KYW, WTOP, WIBC, WJR, KMOX, WBAP, WWL, WSB, WDBO, WHO, KOA, KFYR, KKOB, KFYI, KGO, KIRO, KEX, KSL, WTIC, KFBK, KMJ, KOGO, KFAB, WHP, WHAS, WRVA, WPTF, WBT, etc., etc. All are AMs, all are in both the top 3 consitently in ratings, with many being long-time #1. KGO has been #1 in San Francisco for over 130 consecutive arbitron books. So there is nothing at all unusual about an AM doing well.

In fact, 15 of the top 40 highest billing US radio staitons are AM. So there is absolutely nothing amazing about this. It is normal.

The common factor of all of these stations is that they (except for WTOP which just moved to FM) cover the whole market, and are among the very few stations in US metros of any size that do so. 90% of rated-market AMs do not cover the entire metro they are licensed to.

Moderator's Note: edited to fix quote only.

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

IBOCRocks,

Hey thanks - I just changed my note to: "Note: HD Radio has become a hotly-debated topic, so I would suggest ignoring the negative votes, on any reviews."

Yea, that does seem a bit less biased !

 

[IBOCRocks]

IBOCRocks,

Hey thanks - I just changed my note to: "Note: HD Radio has become a hotly-debated topic, so I would suggest ignoring the negative votes, on any reviews."

Yea, that does seem a bit less biased !

As I've said in your other post, that's great news! Glad to see that your realized your error.

Have a great day!

 

[sbe1]

If the less than 50 stations that have any skywave coverage no longer want to serve the skywave area, then these stations should lose the special protections they enjoy. In otherwords, they should be downgraded to class B status. The problem is, they want their cake and be able to eat it too. I think we should immediately lite up all AM IBOC stations at night. Yes, there will be some interference issues that will have to be addressed. Yes, there will be some situations that cannot be resolved. Some combination of new DA patterns, and or lower power at night will probably resolve most of those issues. I think interfering stations should be allowed a chance to clean up their operations and let the market decide. Now I also feel that superpower FM's should only be allowed the IBOC power their class would allow, not be grandfathered the IBOC at the superpower level. This I think is fair to all. BTW, if DXers want to still exist, let them purchase a HD receiver, and DX IBOC. In the case of a national or regional emergency like the Northeast Power failure or Hurricane Katrina, IBOC could be ordered to shut down for a period of time. I believe these are reasonable solutions, but I dont expect to see them implemented. Unfortunately, the courts will probably decide for us.

 

[SayNoToIBOC]

sbel1 wrote: "and DX IBOC."

There's an oxymoron for you ! Before, I ever purchase a $200 AM/FM IBOC radio, I'll just DX into Canada, to get the same simulcasts. Yea, let then light up IBOC for nighttime AM, and watch it all self-destruct - that is the best thing, that could happen !

sbel1 wrote: "In the case of a national or regional emergency like the Northeast Power failure or Hurricane Katrina, IBOC could be ordered to shut down for a period of time."

Well, there's progress for you ! Just like, when IBOC reverts back tp analog, when receivers get out of range ! What advanced "technology" !

 

[davideduardo]

sbel1 wrote: "and DX IBOC."

There's an oxymoron for you ! Before, I ever purchase a $200 AM/FM IBOC radio, I'll just DX into Canada, to get the same simulcasts. Yea, let then light up IBOC for nighttime AM, and watch it all self-destruct - that is the best thing, that could happen !
!

In this weeks M Street, 6 mmore Canadian AM stations, ranging form Hull, Québec (across from Ottawa) to some small Nova Scotia Class IV have filed to turn in the AM license and go to FM only. canadian AM count is down by about half int he last 15 years.

 

[Tom Wells]

I have been reading the mud slinging for several month now. I am a radio engineer who decided not to go into radio. I am an enthusiast with no afilliations or "entanglements" to skew my opinions. I work with all manner of technoligies, and have more opinions anyone should have to hear, but a few words are in order. The model of service and protected areas defined by the FCC created a situation where far more people than are "defined" are actually served. These people come to expect this service as a RIGHT, becuase the radio has always worked that way. It makes no difference if they are a suburban, DX, rimshot or whatever. They don't care. Only the radio biz people care about markets, and they are the only ones who stand to gain if markets are tightened geographically. It is not the business of corporations to tell Americans how to use their radios, or that they have been using them the wrong way all these years. Fleecing the FCC with blatantly "misleading" data regarding peak/average power levels is a serious matter, because the technology is faltering even with the sidebands exceeding the stated levels. If sidebands actually complied with the published spec it probably wouldn't work at all.

Now regarding the actual technolgy. HD is not radio. Mr Kahn is correct that it is actually a cellphone.

This may work "OK" on FM where the waves behave in a semi-optic fashion, but AM (MW) is the wrong place.

Radio is a technolgy that works WITH natural systems and phenomena to propogate waves of information in a way so as to be EASILY demodulated by a listener with minimum of of power and processing expenditure.

HD requires god-awful expenditures of investor fleecing, processing, codec, proprietary licensing, good luck in propogation, and on the other end, a time-aligned antenna, more codec, buffering, and connection to AC or a car battery to run all the de-processing equipment.

There never was any need to move most of our technolgies to digital, except that too many people could never figure out how to make the analog systems work. They should have gone to business school and left radio to people who could tell a smith chart from a load line. Unfortunately the radio business won't pay to keep such people around.

Eventually stations are filled 100% solid state and computer equipment, and nobody in the place knows anything about radio engineering. Then along comes "digital broadcasting".

And there's almost nobody left with enough experience and background to call "bullshit" on it.
And absolutely nobody apparently, left at the FCC with engineering knowledge and/or power to make a difference.

You can sweep water up a hill, but it don't wanna go. Digital propogation in MW would only be proposed by someone
who doesn't know personally by experience the differing nature of signals at UHF/VHF/HF/SW/MW/LW.

HD radio could work well in the region above 30 mhz as a new service.

But for the FCC to permit ONE company to deny ANYONE the full use of their radio in the manner they have been accustomed, I do think conspiracy and cartel are appropriate terms for discussion.

But the FCC has been negligent in regulating noise-generating devices for over 30 years.
There is no excuse for the AM band having noise it does except for more junk engineering.
Now we want to throw junk engineering at the problem.... very wise indeed.

A modem is not a radio, no matter what you make it look like.

 

[calstymes]

Mr. Wells,

You have written what is probably the sanest and most well thought out opinion about HD/IBOC technology that has ever appeared on this message board. My congratulations to you for your independent analysis and the conclusions to which you have arrived.

You should have become a radio engineer. The broadcast industry would have highly benefited from your knowledge and expertise. Thank you for your voice of reason.

 

[IBOCRocks]

Mr. Wells,

You have written what is probably the sanest and most well thought out opinion about HD/IBOC technology that has ever appeared on this message board. My congratulations to you for your independent analysis and the conclusions to which you have arrived.

You should have become a radio engineer. The broadcast industry would have highly benefited from your knowledge and expertise. Thank you for your voice of reason.

I agree with Cal. I don't happen to agree with what you've written, but you have presented it in a well thought out manner, and have made interesting points. I can certainly respect that!

 

[Chuck]

Count me as an admirer too. It is nice to see some sane and rational discussion for a change.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I have been reading the mud slinging for several month now. I am a radio engineer who decided not to go into radio. I am an enthusiast with no afilliations or "entanglements" to skew my opinions. I work with all manner of technoligies, and have more opinions anyone should have to hear, but a few words are in order. The model of service and protected areas defined by the FCC created a situation where far more people than are "defined" are actually served. These people come to expect this service as a RIGHT, becuase the radio has always worked that way. It makes no difference if they are a suburban, DX, rimshot or whatever. They don't care. Only the radio biz people care about markets, and they are the only ones who stand to gain if markets are tightened geographically. It is not the business of corporations to tell Americans how to use their radios, or that they have been using them the wrong way all these years. Fleecing the FCC with blatantly "misleading" data regarding peak/average power levels is a serious matter, because the technology is faltering even with the sidebands exceeding the stated levels. If sidebands actually complied with the published spec it probably wouldn't work at all.

Now regarding the actual technolgy. HD is not radio. Mr Kahn is correct that it is actually a cellphone.

This may work "OK" on FM where the waves behave in a semi-optic fashion, but AM (MW) is the wrong place.

Radio is a technolgy that works WITH natural systems and phenomena to propogate waves of information in a way so as to be EASILY demodulated by a listener with minimum of of power and processing expenditure.

HD requires god-awful expenditures of investor fleecing, processing, codec, proprietary licensing, good luck in propogation, and on the other end, a time-aligned antenna, more codec, buffering, and connection to AC or a car battery to run all the de-processing equipment.

There never was any need to move most of our technolgies to digital, except that too many people could never figure out how to make the analog systems work. They should have gone to business school and left radio to people who could tell a smith chart from a load line. Unfortunately the radio business won't pay to keep such people around.

Eventually stations are filled 100% solid state and computer equipment, and nobody in the place knows anything about radio engineering. Then along comes "digital broadcasting".

And there's almost nobody left with enough experience and background to call "bullshit" on it.
And absolutely nobody apparently, left at the FCC with engineering knowledge and/or power to make a difference.

You can sweep water up a hill, but it don't wanna go. Digital propogation in MW would only be proposed by someone
who doesn't know personally by experience the differing nature of signals at UHF/VHF/HF/SW/MW/LW.

HD radio could work well in the region above 30 mhz as a new service.

But for the FCC to permit ONE company to deny ANYONE the full use of their radio in the manner they have been accustomed, I do think conspiracy and cartel are appropriate terms for discussion.

But the FCC has been negligent in regulating noise-generating devices for over 30 years.
There is no excuse for the AM band having noise it does except for more junk engineering.
Now we want to throw junk engineering at the problem.... very wise indeed.

A modem is not a radio, no matter what you make it look like.

Well stated and accurate.
Here is a link to a BETTER FM digital system that is less complex, less expensive, and REALLY analog FM compatible!
FMeXtra:
www.dreinc.com