Is Alternative dead and how can it go forward?

[tall_guy1]

If not, how should it go forward as a format? There is always a demand for something different than what is played on the radio, but how should programmers go about creating a station for those audiences? I'm thinking maybe leaning on classics might be the best way to go, unless there is a way for new music to resonate. Your thoughts?

 

[davideduardo]

If not, how should it go forward as a format? There is always a demand for something different than what is played on the radio, but how should programmers go about creating a station for those audiences? I'm thinking maybe leaning on classics might be the best way to go, unless there is a way for new music to resonate. Your thoughts?

The only times when there is such a "demand" is when there is something on the street that is not being reflected on the radio.

The perfect and massive example is disco in the mid-70's. The music came out of clubs, and radio did not instantly create all-disco formats. Some stations added disco songs; even some AC stations at the time added a few of the more melodic releases. But radio was relatively fast in upping the spins and, eventually, creating all-disco stations.

While that movement was actually a short-lived fad, it created a format of its own.

This is what has happened with rhythmic Urban or Churban formats in markets with lots of Hispanics when a reggaetón station came on: the Hispanic listeners found something better than hip hop and left. New format, old formats that could not react get dinged.

There are few programmers who have actually created a brand new format.*

The rest look for better versions or new blends of existing formats.

* Several programmers have claimed they created the disco format, but mostly it was a reaction to an exploding trend in NYC that just spread all over. Frank Cody and Owen Leach created the Smooth Jazz format, but it had an element of trial and error. Top 40 was created by Todd Storz and Bill Stewart who observed the same songs being played over and over again on a jukebox at their favorite coffee and lunch place.

AC was an evolution from Top 40 where the "hard stuff" was left out for adult appeal. Country and Urban both evolved from formats or block programming going back to the 30's and 40's. Beautiful Music came out of the need to put something unique on new FMs around the time stereo FM was created and soon after stereo disks started coming out. Progressive rock was the un-format: lots of random plays of random album cuts. AOR was simply the applying of Top 40 formatics to rock... a brilliant move by Lee Abrams at a medium market station in the Carolinas.

Even rap and hip hop are simply evolutionary influences on Urban stations, although the influential factor turned out to be the tail that wagged the dog.

So few new formats are "creations". Most are evolutionary or spontaneous when a new kind of music with a huge following appears. That does not happen more than once a generation, it seems.

And new formats are born in the music industry, not in radio.

Here is an example: In the later 80's in Puerto Rico, a failing FM owned by an eccentric and unusual local broadcaster noted club activity by a new kind of music being called "reggaetón" and added it to his formerly rock-based FM. Groups recorded in home studios or less costly pro ones, and they were selling their work on cassettes and CDs in the underground economy at swap shops and the like. The station that latched onto the new wave struggled for years, but got enough revenue from head shops and beachwear retailers and the like to survive, and eventually, it exploded and became the biggest youth format in all Latin America and US Latin markets; its discovery, though, was accidental and risky. But it took about 20 years, from the late 80's until well into the 2000's, for the format to be widely accepted and profitable to stations engaging in it. In fact, an effort to do the format too early in NYC was a total failure.

So don't ask us to create new radio formats when the source of those formats is in the music industry and music trends.

 

[Deus Ex Machiato]

There is always a demand for something different than what is played on the radio, but how should programmers go about creating a station for those audiences?

Seems to me that those audiences have long since left radio.

Alternative used to be something other than a "format." Back when I was in college radio it wasn't a formula. It was some guy (or gal) who'd stumbled upon some band nobody had heard of and put their record on the radio saying "no, you don't understand...they're good...just listen to this song."

Alternative was actually an alternative. Then in the 90's, it became a format. Something that was packaged and sold to audiences. Stations had creative presentations and an edgy vibe as if to say "we're really edgy" and they called the station "The Edge" to drive home the point. That's not to say the on air folks or some of the music directors were insincere about bringing "alternative" music to a wider audience, but it started to become a product. A format. A formula.

What used to be that guy at a college party cornering you and saying "you need to listen to this band" became a thing that the labels latched onto and started promoting. Yeah, it was cool that The Cure and Nirvana got mainstream success and the kids were wearing t-shirts with the Clash's London Calling cover, but was it really alternative?

As a commercial proposition, playing songs nobody has heard has never worked for radio, and "alternative" only became viable when it became - paradoxically - popular. "Alt" has become a brand, and that's not really alternative, is it?

 

[tall_guy1]

The only times when there is such a "demand" is when there is something on the street that is not being reflected on the radio.

The perfect and massive example is disco in the mid-70's. The music came out of clubs, and radio did not instantly create all-disco formats. Some stations added disco songs; even some AC stations at the time added a few of the more melodic releases. But radio was relatively fast in upping the spins and, eventually, creating all-disco stations.

While that movement was actually a short-lived fad, it created a format of its own.

This is what has happened with rhythmic Urban or Churban formats in markets with lots of Hispanics when a reggaetón station came on: the Hispanic listeners found something better than hip hop and left. New format, old formats that could not react get dinged.

There are few programmers who have actually created a brand new format.*

The rest look for better versions or new blends of existing formats.

* Several programmers have claimed they created the disco format, but mostly it was a reaction to an exploding trend in NYC that just spread all over. Frank Cody and Owen Leach created the Smooth Jazz format, but it had an element of trial and error. Top 40 was created by Todd Storz and Bill Stewart who observed the same songs being played over and over again on a jukebox at their favorite coffee and lunch place.

AC was an evolution from Top 40 where the "hard stuff" was left out for adult appeal. Country and Urban both evolved from formats or block programming going back to the 30's and 40's. Beautiful Music came out of the need to put something unique on new FMs around the time stereo FM was created and soon after stereo disks started coming out. Progressive rock was the un-format: lots of random plays of random album cuts. AOR was simply the applying of Top 40 formatics to rock... a brilliant move by Lee Abrams at a medium market station in the Carolinas.

Even rap and hip hop are simply evolutionary influences on Urban stations, although the influential factor turned out to be the tail that wagged the dog.

So few new formats are "creations". Most are evolutionary or spontaneous when a new kind of music with a huge following appears. That does not happen more than once a generation, it seems.

And new formats are born in the music industry, not in radio.

Here is an example: In the later 80's in Puerto Rico, a failing FM owned by an eccentric and unusual local broadcaster noted club activity by a new kind of music being called "reggaetón" and added it to his formerly rock-based FM. Groups recorded in home studios or less costly pro ones, and they were selling their work on cassettes and CDs in the underground economy at swap shops and the like. The station that latched onto the new wave struggled for years, but got enough revenue from head shops and beachwear retailers and the like to survive, and eventually, it exploded and became the biggest youth format in all Latin America and US Latin markets; its discovery, though, was accidental and risky. But it took about 20 years, from the late 80's until well into the 2000's, for the format to be widely accepted and profitable to stations engaging in it. In fact, an effort to do the format too early in NYC was a total failure.

So don't ask us to create new radio formats when the source of those formats is in the music industry and music trends.

Lazlo Geiger from KRBZ was able to tap into the indie fad in 2013, and what he called "breaking bands." He was the first to play Mumford and Sons and in 2013, his station played the most new songs of any alternative in the country. Kaplan's experiment for alternative is another shot in the dark, but with much lesser success. I think ambitious program directing *can* lead to an overall shift if it is pulled off the right way, since sometimes it leads to more adds, and thus, a creation of a new sound. It has to be done the right way, though.

 

[davideduardo]

Lazlo Geiger from KRBZ was able to tap into the indie fad in 2013, and what he called "breaking bands." He was the first to play Mumford and Sons and in 2013, his station played the most new songs of any alternative in the country. Kaplan's experiment for alternative is another shot in the dark, but with much lesser success. I think ambitious program directing *can* lead to an overall shift if it is pulled off the right way, since sometimes it leads to more adds, and thus, a creation of a new sound. It has to be done the right way, though.

What you are discussing amounts to fine tuning. Among car enthusiasts, like changing wheel diameters or getting a non-standard carburetor or different shocks. But the car is still the same make and model, just with different makeup.

The Spanish saying is, "A monkey, dressed in silk, is still a monkey".

Adding indie stuff to an Alt station was no different than adding Motown or British Invasion to Top 40 in the 60's. It did not change the format... just the blend.

 

[macattack]

What you are discussing amounts to fine tuning. Among car enthusiasts, like changing wheel diameters or getting a non-standard carburetor or different shocks. But the car is still the same make and model, just with different makeup.

The Spanish saying is, "A monkey, dressed in silk, is still a monkey".

Adding indie stuff to an Alt station was no different than adding Motown or British Invasion to Top 40 in the 60's. It did not change the format... just the blend.

I think the reason why the perception exists that Alt had basically become a completely different format by 2013 was that the music changed so rapidly it was like being splashed with a bucket of cold water. Many programmers were publicly sick and tired of playing Linkin Park, Papa Roach, Chevelle, Tool, you get the idea. The moment it looked like the audience wanted something else they LEAPT at it and threw the loud stuff into an incinerator and pretended that era never happened.

You don't hear a ton of 2000's Alternative hits on an average Alt right now because easily 75% of those were Active/Alt crossovers. You're more likely to hear indie and alt-pop hits from the 2010's or aged golds from the 80's and 90's than a 2000's Alt song.

I think pretending the 2000's never happened (with some exceptions like "Seven Nation Army") slowly alienated audiences though as kicking the Alt/Active crossover smashes left a giant hole in the playlists and left veteran listeners who were from the 2000's unsatisfied. At the same time the indie crowd openly mock those same smashes and will just roll their eyes at "CUT MY LIFE INTO PIECES, THIS IS MY LAST RESORT" and change the channel. As you and others have mentioned the audience has fragmented and there's no easy way to put it back together.

 

[Y2kTheNewOldies]

If not, how should it go forward as a format? There is always a demand for something different than what is played on the radio, but how should programmers go about creating a station for those audiences? I'm thinking maybe leaning on classics might be the best way to go, unless there is a way for new music to resonate. Your thoughts?

I don't think its a radio issue anymore its more of the music labels and concert promoters have shifted their attention over having their music getting attention in places such as Tik Tok, Twitch, Youtube, Spotify, Tunein, Audacy and Iheart apps and see if their artists will trend within the top 10 spots for music in these platforms.

 

[macattack]

I think May is going to be revealing for how "dead" Alternative is. A LOT of pop-punk is going for adds this month (led by Machine Gun Kelly's heaviest single since his genre switch). "Higher Power" by Coldplay drops 5/7 with superstar producer Max Martin behind it. Billie Eilish just put out an acoustic, lyrically dark ballad. We got a noisy rocker by Canadian duo cleopatrick going for adds next week. Modest Mouse and WALK THE MOON coming soon. Staple mid-charter Joywave drops their radio single mid-month.

Exciting times if you're in the industry and lots of choices to go with.

 

[tall_guy1]

I think May is going to be revealing for how "dead" Alternative is. A LOT of pop-punk is going for adds this month (led by Machine Gun Kelly's heaviest single since his genre switch). "Higher Power" by Coldplay drops 5/7 with superstar producer Max Martin behind it. Billie Eilish just put out an acoustic, lyrically dark ballad. We got a noisy rocker by Canadian duo cleopatrick going for adds next week. Modest Mouse and WALK THE MOON coming soon. Staple mid-charter Joywave drops their radio single mid-month.

Exciting times if you're in the industry and lots of choices to go with.

Expect the legacy big names to be ignored by kaplan and audacy...

 

[Greg Strickland]

I'm not a programmer. Here's my opinion-

The demographic for '90s alternative still exists and it is or can be served. In the '90s if you personally liked alternative or were in the demo, I'd say you have aged out. A nearby station that appears to be alternative plays a lot of music that sounds like failed pop, and it is edgy or narrow. I don't mean to be derogatory saying it that way; I surmise that sound is what the alternative demo in 2021 wants to hear. Nonetheless I enjoy listening to the station, just with acceptance it will not play many of the alternative staples from the '90s.

Advice for radio people- don't get married to your own demo. In acting profession that might be called typecasting.

 

[tall_guy1]

I'm not a programmer. Here's my opinion-

The demographic for '90s alternative still exists and it is or can be served. In the '90s if you personally liked alternative or were in the demo, I'd say you have aged out. A nearby station that appears to be alternative plays a lot of music that sounds like failed pop, and it is edgy or narrow. I don't mean to be derogatory saying it that way; I surmise that sound is what the alternative demo in 2021 wants to hear. Nonetheless I enjoy listening to the station, just with acceptance it will not play many of the alternative staples from the '90s.

Advice for radio people- don't get married to your own demo. In acting profession that might be called typecasting.

I've tuned out of my audacy alternative station the last year. It feels like it's tailored to gen z teens/young adult and this is coming from someone who is 28!

 

[Greg Strickland]

Interesting. I'm not qualified as a programmer, and can't say much more responsibly. The nearby station is operated by very experienced radio people and I am certain they have good reason for what they do.

 

[davideduardo]

Interesting. I'm not qualified as a programmer,

I'd say you were more qualified than most, as you have worked together with some of America's best programmers, starting with Bill Tanner.

 

[Greg Strickland]

Thank you David for the kind words.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

I'm not a programmer. Here's my opinion-

The demographic for '90s alternative still exists and it is or can be served. In the '90s if you personally liked alternative or were in the demo, I'd say you have aged out.

Well someone who was 20 years old listening to '90s alternative at its peak in in say, 1996, is 45 years old today. That demo happens to be smack-dab in the middle of the sweet spot that radio loves to target, and radio typically does that by playing old favorites from the target audience's youth.

So no, I don't think someone who liked alternative in the '90s has "aged out." In fact, they should be among the most valuable targets for radio today.

 

[Greg Strickland]

That's a good point. I think I was in error saying aged out.

 

[Don CT]

I'm not a programmer. Here's my opinion-

The demographic for '90s alternative still exists and it is or can be served. In the '90s if you personally liked alternative or were in the demo, I'd say you have aged out. A nearby station that appears to be alternative plays a lot of music that sounds like failed pop, and it is edgy or narrow. I don't mean to be derogatory saying it that way; I surmise that sound is what the alternative demo in 2021 wants to hear. Nonetheless I enjoy listening to the station, just with acceptance it will not play many of the alternative staples from the '90s.

Advice for radio people- don't get married to your own demo. In acting profession that might be called typecasting.

Are we calling 90's grunge alternative? To me that was mainstream rock before the rock/rap phase kicked in. Todays Alternative is softer pop rock. It has no resemblance to what was the Active Rock format of the 2000's.

 

[Don CT]

Would Foo Fighters be considered the grand father of Alternative?

 

[macattack]

Would Foo Fighters be considered the grand father of Alternative?

Considering they are the last of their kind to still get airplay (and top 10 Alternative hits even with Audacy ignoring them) I would say they are.

Depeche Mode is probably the great-grandfather considering they've charted as late as 2017 even if their days of scoring smashes are well behind them. Both bands have influenced many Alternative acts of all stripes.

You'd be surprised how many alternative metal bands claim Depeche Mode inspiration along with the more obvious electro and alt-pop acts. Billie Eilish's smash "bad guy" to me sounds like a minimalist, twisted take on a Depeche Mode demo for example.

Many modern alt-rock acts clearly have Foo Fighters riffs in them like Catfish & The Bottlemen and Cage The Elephant.

And I'd be remiss to not mention blink-182's influence on the pop-punk revival trend (helped by Travis Barker providing his drum services on many singles). blink-182 is the grandfather of this specific aspect of Alternative themselves.

 

[Don CT]

I don't consider punk to be alternative. I would put that more in the hard rock category. I guess that would depend on what generation of punk.