Is Alternative on the Verge of a Comeback?

[atlantaboy]

Many of the bands selling albums, singles, and concert tickets for the format today are bands like Foo Fighters, Incubus, and RHCP. Well they're all great bands, they've all been around for 15+ years, so formatically, they appeal to the upper end of the demo and 18 year olds don't have as big of a connection to these groups. It signals problems down the road for this format.

Does Britney Spears appeal to the upper end of the CHR demo cause she's been around for so long? Do 18 year olds not have a big connection to her? Does this signal problems down the road for the pop format?

Not sure how you can assume that 18 year olds don't feel a "connection" to certain bands just because they've been around for a long time - if that were true, they wouldn't be flying to the top of the Alternative charts - besides Alternative is huge right now on Death Cab, Mumford & Sons, MGMT (in recurrent), Cage The Elephant, Phoenix, etc., so there certainly isn't a lack of young bands

 

[TheBigA]

Does Britney Spears appeal to the upper end of the CHR demo cause she's been around for so long? Do 18 year olds not have a big connection to her? Does this signal problems down the road for the pop format?

Only if the music industry is unable to develop newer younger talent that radio will want to play. And that may be a problem for them.

Somehow or other, CHR has managed to survive the aging of its stars, by replacing older artists with newer ones. It's the circle of life. Some day Justin Bieber is going to be too old to get CHR airplay.

 

[atlantaboy]

Does Britney Spears appeal to the upper end of the CHR demo cause she's been around for so long? Do 18 year olds not have a big connection to her? Does this signal problems down the road for the pop format?

Only if the music industry is unable to develop newer younger talent that radio will want to play. And that may be a problem for them.

Somehow or other, CHR has managed to survive the aging of its stars, by replacing older artists with newer ones. It's the circle of life. Some day Justin Bieber is going to be too old to get CHR airplay.

Yeah, I agree - I was just posing the question as an example because someone posted that the Alternative format was somehow damaging itself by playing the Foo Fighters, Incubus, and the Red Hot Chili Peppers, and that these bands didn't appeal to the younger demo of the Alt. format because they've been around for too long

 

[Dkampy]

Huh???...am I hearing right...the Alternative genre needs to rely on older bands for their revenue ...ie RHCP, Foo Fighters etc...A few years ago I would have agreed with that statement. But I have not seen this many alt bands that people are passionate about in ages...Mumford & Sons, Phoenix, The Black Keys, Arcade Fire, Foster The People...the list goes on and on...rather or not that will translate into alt crossing over to CHR...we will have to wait and see.

On a somewhat related note...anyone else surprised that Florence & The Machine's "Dog Days Are Over" did not do anything on CHR? I figured at least top 30. They were a much buzzed about band after thier VMA performace...the song was a top 10 hit as far as downloads were concerned. It was catchy enough...it feels like a song that fits in the much coveted 18-34 female demo. They even covered it on glee.

 

[justpassingthough]

Well, study after study points to the same conclusion. People's awareness towards music generally peaks at about age 17- and most people spend their adults lives with the strongest connection to the music that was popular at this time in their life (late teens/early 20s). Alternative bands that have been around since the mid to late 90s would largely appeal to the people who are now in the upper edge of the 18 to 34 demo. That doesn't mean there aren't any 18 or even 13 year olds who like the Foo Fighters. It just means the bulk of their fans are probably older. I'm sure there are also 13 and 30 year olds who like Led Zeppelin- but the majority of their fans were in their teens during the '60s and '70s.

A quick glance of the top 20 alternative singles chart on iTunes (since that seems to be an acceptable source here) and its the following bands:

FTP, Coldplay, RHCP, Florence & the Machine x2, Mumford & Sons x2, AWOLNATION, Coldplay x2, Bush, Semisonic, Paramore, Third Eye Blind, The Naked & Famous, Green Day, the Black Keys, Jeff Buckley, Edward Sharpe


Three of the top 20 songs were recorded in the 90s and another handful were recorded in the first half of the last decade. Yes, there is a decent showing from newer bands with new singles- but I think this singles a definite problem for a format that used to be able to get many more songs to crossover to CHR.

 

[atlantaboy]

I think this singles a definite problem for a format that used to be able to get many more songs to crossover to CHR.

Why would the Alternative format care how many songs cross over to CHR? I would think it would be better fot the Alt. format if LESS songs cross over to pop, or if labels wait until Alt. chart runs are nearly complete before crossing any songs over to pop - that way, if people want to hear their favorite Alt. song, they listen exclusively to Alternative radio

In any case, Alternative ratings almost doubled nationwide (on average) during the first quarter of this year, so whatever Alternative PDs are doing, in terms of older bands vs. newer bands, it's working!!

 

[justpassingthough]

I think this singles a definite problem for a format that used to be able to get many more songs to crossover to CHR.

Why would the Alternative format care how many songs cross over to CHR? I would think it would be better fot the Alt. format if LESS songs cross over to pop, or if labels wait until Alt. chart runs are nearly complete before crossing any songs over to pop - that way, if people want to hear their favorite Alt. song, they listen exclusively to Alternative radio

In any case, Alternative ratings almost doubled nationwide (on average) during the first quarter of this year, so whatever Alternative PDs are doing, in terms of older bands vs. newer bands, it's working!!

Alternative and CHR both serve an 18 to 34 audience. Yet, most alternative and CHR stations don't share a large audience. The potential is there to continue growth at alternative by exposing more and more 18 to 34 year olds to bands like Florence & the Machine, Mumford, etc. Alternative probably doesn't care what CHR takes and turns into a crossover hit, but maybe they should...

Arguably, the strongest advocate for grunge and alternative music in the 90s was all of the video exposure on MTV. This doesn't exist so someone needs to be advocating for alternative music to reach as many ears as possible. Videos online is certainly one tool, along with social networking, but I'm guessing most people seek out what they and their friends already know and like rather than give a different type of music a listen.

Hopefully the slew of alt hits that have made (or are starting to make an impact) at CHR over the past year will continue. (That's my "rhythmic bias" speaking there, Atlantaboy)

 

[atlantaboy]

I think this singles a definite problem for a format that used to be able to get many more songs to crossover to CHR.

Why would the Alternative format care how many songs cross over to CHR? I would think it would be better fot the Alt. format if LESS songs cross over to pop, or if labels wait until Alt. chart runs are nearly complete before crossing any songs over to pop - that way, if people want to hear their favorite Alt. song, they listen exclusively to Alternative radio

In any case, Alternative ratings almost doubled nationwide (on average) during the first quarter of this year, so whatever Alternative PDs are doing, in terms of older bands vs. newer bands, it's working!!

Alternative and CHR both serve an 18 to 34 audience. Yet, most alternative and CHR stations don't share a large audience.

Alternative targets males (or something like 60-70% males), while CHR targets females - they're not supposed to share a large audience

 

[atlantaboy]

The potential is there to continue growth at alternative by exposing more and more 18 to 34 year olds to bands like Florence & the Machine, Mumford, etc. Alternative probably doesn't care what CHR takes and turns into a crossover hit, but maybe they should...

Come on, man - Mumford & Sons hit #1 on the Alternative chart, and Florence went Top 10 - you keep posting stuff without understanding the facts behind what you're posting

 

[CHRles]

I agree with justpassingthrough though that MTV had a huge impact on Modern Rock crossing over to the mainstream in the early 90s, just like it helped Hip Hop cross over, and just like in the mid to late 80s it helped a lot of crossover Hard Rock songs become huge anthems.
While those songs and genres were already impacting CHR radio and the Pop charts, it was undoubtedly MTV that helped take things to the next level.

 

[justpassingthough]

The potential is there to continue growth at alternative by exposing more and more 18 to 34 year olds to bands like Florence & the Machine, Mumford, etc. Alternative probably doesn't care what CHR takes and turns into a crossover hit, but maybe they should...

Come on, man - Mumford & Sons hit #1 on the Alternative chart, and Florence went Top 10 - you keep posting stuff without understanding the facts behind what you're posting

I'm aware that Mumford & Sons hit #1 on alternative. I can read charts, too, but thanks for your condescending attitude. What I was trying to say is that it could benefit alternative music, not necessarily stations that are formatted alternative, if more songs were pushed to CHR. Its great that there is this enthusiasm for bands like Mumford and Florence that has been sorely missing for years now, but these songs should be charting better at CHR. I think its a combination of a number of factors: the overwhelming power of rhythmic music at CHR right now, lack of artist development at the record labels, laziness of PDs that should be seeking out these alternative hits, etc.

My point is that many of the strong bands at alternative are older bands that have limited crossover appeal. This threatens the long term picture of alternative music- as what is appropriate to cross over to CHR isn't crossing over- and potential audience is being missed...

 

[atlantaboy]

My point is that many of the strong bands at alternative are older bands that have limited crossover appeal. This threatens the long term picture of alternative music- as what is appropriate to cross over to CHR isn't crossing over- and potential audience is being missed...

I don't know where to start here, man - I'm sure you know a whole lot more than I do about Rhythmic music, so I don't mean to be condescending, but I really don't think you have much background in the Alternative world...

First of all, "Many of the strong bands at Alternative are older bands?" That's completely untrue - I'd say 80% of the new music at most Alternative stations is by NEW bands, and about 80% of the tracks on the Alternative chart are by new artists - and I really don't see how Alternative playing the Foo Fighters, Incubus, and the Chili Peppers is any different from CHR playing Britney Spears, Pink, and J-Lo

Second, saying that CHR crossover is the key to "the long term picture of Alternative music" is crazy - most of the biggest Alternative bands of all time barely crossed over to CHR at all, or their CHR crossover was extremely limited (Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Bush, Soundgarden, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.) - Alternative is a format that appeals to males, CHR is a format that appeals to females - just cause songs test well with a mostly male Alternative audience doesn't mean they're gonna test well with a primarily female pop audience, nor does CHR crossover necessarily translate into higher album/concert sales or popularity - it's like criticizing the Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, or the Dave Matthews Band for having such limited pop crossover appeal, and claiming that they were hurting their own popularity by not crossing over to CHR on a wide scale

I feel like what you're trying to say is that if the Alternative format concentrates on younger bands with more of a pop-friendly sound, more Alt. tracks will cross over to CHR and chart high on ITunes - but that's going to help CHR, not Alternative - and we'd have a lot of pop-friendly rock bands that would no longer be considered "Alternative" - so you're basically recommeding that the Alternative format shoot itself in the foot, for the good of the pop format

 

[justpassingthough]

My point is that many of the strong bands at alternative are older bands that have limited crossover appeal. This threatens the long term picture of alternative music- as what is appropriate to cross over to CHR isn't crossing over- and potential audience is being missed...

I don't know where to start here, man - I'm sure you know a whole lot more than I do about Rhythmic music, so I don't mean to be condescending, but I really don't think you have much background in the Alternative world...

First of all, "Many of the strong bands at Alternative are older bands?" That's completely untrue - I'd say 80% of the new music at most Alternative stations is by NEW bands, and about 80% of the tracks on the Alternative chart are by new artists - and I really don't see how Alternative playing the Foo Fighters, Incubus, and the Chili Peppers is any different from CHR playing Britney Spears, Pink, and J-Lo

Second, saying that CHR crossover is the key to "the long term picture of Alternative music" is crazy - most of the biggest Alternative bands of all time barely crossed over to CHR at all, or their CHR crossover was extremely limited (Pearl Jam, Nirvana, Bush, Soundgarden, Smashing Pumpkins, etc.) - Alternative is a format that appeals to males, CHR is a format that appeals to females - just cause songs test well with a mostly male Alternative audience doesn't mean they're gonna test well with a primarily female pop audience, nor does CHR crossover necessarily translate into higher album/concert sales or popularity - it's like criticizing the Grateful Dead, Led Zeppelin, or the Dave Matthews Band for having such limited pop crossover appeal, and claiming that they were hurting their own popularity by not crossing over to CHR on a wide scale

I feel like what you're trying to say is that if the Alternative format concentrates on younger bands with more of a pop-friendly sound, more Alt. tracks will cross over to CHR and chart high on ITunes - but that's going to help CHR, not Alternative - and we'd have a lot of pop-friendly rock bands that would no longer be considered "Alternative" - so you're basically recommeding that the Alternative format shoot itself in the foot, for the good of the pop format

What I was trying to point out is that alternative does need exposure at CHR, because many of the older avenues for music exposure that propelled the success of alternative in the 90s, like MTV, are no longer relevant. So exposure at CHR can't hurt as it will draw more ears to alternative music. I understand that most of the big alt bands (same with the classic rock acts that are no considered legends) of the past received little to no CHR airplay but they were played at alternative stations with the likes of Smash Mouth, Sugar Ray, Lit, the Cranberries, etc- that all had crossover appeal. This seems to be missing from CHR today, as there are so few hits that crossover-- and I fear that spells long term doom for the alternative format. Alternative can not solely rely on the backs of bands that have been around for 20 years without creating big acts for the future. The current big acts at alternative pale in comparision to the cultural relevance of the bands 10, 15, and 20 years ago....perhaps CHR could be one avenue for drawing listeners to the format.

And, again, thanks for assuming. I've worked at alternative radio, been in alternative bands and have a Weezer lyric (from the blue album, not recent sucky Weezer) tattooed on me, so please stop assuming you have all of the answers and the rest of us are stupid. Its fine to argue the points we make on these message boards, but you like to get personal with attacking me and others.

 

[atlantaboy]

Alternative can not solely rely on the backs of bands that have been around for 20 years without creating big acts for the future.

Where are you getting this from? Look at the Alternative chart - it's about 80% new bands, any of which could be huge in the future - you suggested they play more Mumford and Florence, and they were all over those bands

What would you do differently if you were an Alternative PD? Are you suggesting that they ignore huge tracks from the Foo Fighters and Chili Peppers that get constant requests from their core audience, all day long? Or are you suggesting that they keep those tracks, but play bands in heavy rotation that they're not currently playing?

You keep posting that the Alternative format is going to have problems, in a time period where ratings have doubled during the past half year, and Alternative is more popular than it's been since the mid-late 1990s - I don't understand what you're asking them to do differently, and why you're asking them to do it

 

[atlantaboy]

I understand that most of the big alt bands (same with the classic rock acts that are no considered legends) of the past received little to no CHR airplay but they were played at alternative stations with the likes of Smash Mouth, Sugar Ray, Lit, the Cranberries, etc- that all had crossover appeal.

Ratings were not better back then than they are now, so Alt. artists back then had no more radio exposure than Alt. artists in 2011 - you're assuming that stations playing CHR-friendly artists automatically have a higher audience, and that's not true at all

Smash Mouth and Sugar Ray BTW weren't until 1997-1998, and playing those artists killed the Alternative format in the late 1990s (until they started replacing it with Korn, Linkin Park, etc.)

 

[CHRles]

You keep posting that the Alternative format is going to have problems, in a time period where ratings have doubled during the past half year, and Alternative is more popular than it's been since the mid-late 1990s - I don't understand what you're asking them to do differently, and why you're asking them to do it

Ratings have doubled for Alternative radio as a whole or a few select stations? And which stations specifically?

Also, I hate to burst your bubble but Alternative radio's ratings popularity were definitely higher in the mid to late 90s. That was definitely the case with Q101 Chicago at the time, 99 X Atlanta, 92.3 K-Rock New York, Live 105 San Francisco and nearby 98.5 KOME San Jose, 104.1 BCN Boston, 99.1 HFS Washington-Baltimore (remember the HFstivelas?), The Edge in Minneapolis, 100.7 WMMS Cleveland, etc.

 

[atlantaboy]

You keep posting that the Alternative format is going to have problems, in a time period where ratings have doubled during the past half year, and Alternative is more popular than it's been since the mid-late 1990s - I don't understand what you're asking them to do differently, and why you're asking them to do it

Ratings have doubled for Alternative radio as a whole or a few select stations? And which stations specifically?

Alternative radio as a whole between last fall and this past winter (biggest gains were in Houston, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Detroit, Cleveland, and Salt Lake City) - but it looks like ratings have gone down again in the last couple months...I guess I take back what I said :-\

But do you guys really think playing the Foo Fighters and Chili Peppers is hurting them?

 

[justpassingthough]

You keep posting that the Alternative format is going to have problems, in a time period where ratings have doubled during the past half year, and Alternative is more popular than it's been since the mid-late 1990s - I don't understand what you're asking them to do differently, and why you're asking them to do it

Ratings have doubled for Alternative radio as a whole or a few select stations? And which stations specifically?

Alternative radio as a whole between last fall and this past winter (biggest gains were in Houston, Philadelphia, Washington DC, Detroit, Cleveland, and Salt Lake City) - but it looks like ratings have gone down again in the last couple months...I guess I take back what I said :-\

But do you guys really think playing the Foo Fighters and Chili Peppers is hurting them?

I didn't mean to imply that playing Foo Fighters and RHCP and the like is hurting alternative. Certainly these two are massively popular bands still (I'm seeing the FF at the Forum in LA in October). All I was trying to relate is that in terms of alternative songs getting airplay at CHR, I wish there were more songs from these new, popular artists like Mumford & Sons getting their fair shake at CHR. As you stated, alternative does have a different demographic than CHR and some of the older alt bands have never been favorites at CHR. I just think this could potentially signal a problem at the alternative format- as fewer and fewer people are exposed to alternative bands and the audience ages itself out of the music. CHR has a greater ability to adjust to changing sounds- CHR at one point favored modern rock, then it favored boy bands, then it favored hip hop, and on and on. Alternative has always been a recurrent and gold heavy format when compared to CHR- so eventually this means that the hits that were popular in 1995 no longer appeal to a saleable alternative demo in 2025.

PPM has given us an accurate way to measure radio listenership, but alternative stations almost always cume lower than CHR stations. Therefore, you typically have fewer people listening for more time, than your typical CHR station. I would just think its a shame if the alternative music genre suffered because they weren't getting their fair shake at CHR.

 

[carolinaradio]

Wasn't Q101 in Chicago Alternative?

 

[the golden boy]

Wasn't Q101 in Chicago Alternative?

Yep, for almost 20 years.