I have some technical questions. How come 5.95-21.85 MHz is considered Short Wave when the FM band at 88-108 MHz has even shorter wave lengths? Are Micro Waves in between Short Wave and FM or at higher frequencies than FM? And where does TV (VHF and UHF) fit into this wave/frequency spectrum? Going the other way, if AM 530-1710 kHz is considered MW (medium wave?), is there a Long Wave (very low frequency) portion of the spectrum? If so, who uses that? I'm just curious and I figure someone on these boards knows this stuff.
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Is AM Dead in LA?
- Thread starter sportstatic
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AM FM listener said:
Technically, the spectrum between 3 and 30 MHz is shortwave, although from a DX enthusiast practical standpoint the low end coincides with the high end of the AM band. The "shortwave" description goes back to the early days of radio when those frequencies above 3 MHz were condsidered the upper regions of the radio spectrum, and most activity took place much lower. And in those days, frequencies above 30 MHz were called "ultra shortwave", a term still used in some parts of the world (you may have seen the German acronym "UKW" used to refer to the FM band in that country.
Higher than shortwave and FM, above 1 GHz. Bascially the upper UHF spectrum and above.
Broadcast TV fits between the shortwave and microwave spectrum. TV runs from 54-72, 76-88, 174-216, and 470-806 MHz, soon to be lopped off at 698 MHz after the digital transition.
Technically medium wave is between 300 and 3,000 kHz, although once again from a DX enthusiast standpoint it is the AM broadcast band. Longwave is technically 30-300 kHz, although again in practical thinking it extends to the low end of the AM band.
In Europe, North Africa, and much of Asia there is a longwave broadcast band from 150-285 kHz. Usually very high power stations operate there, designed for wide ranging coverage. Elsewhere the spectrum is used for simple navigation services, low frequency time signals (such as WWVB on 60 kHz) and other low-bitrate data services.
There is even VLF, from 3 to 30 kHz. Low data rate teletype services there, used by the military. And there's ELF, which is everything below 3 KHz.
AM FM listener said:
The FM band is part of the Very High Frequencies (VHF) which also includes the TV channels 2-13 and certain radio communication services. The upper TV channels 14 and up are Ultra High Frequencies (UHF) and Microwaves are above that. The Low Frequency band is still used, I believe, by the Navy for things like contacting submarines.
Here is a link to a chart of the US allocations: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf
I see that Mediafrog has also posted a definition of some of the jargon used to classify teh various bands. At one time the "Short Waves" were considered useless because they do not have good ground wave propagation. In those days they didn't understand the line of sight possibilities for VHF and above.
Thank you, Mediafrog and nmoore! That was very helpful!
CBS put KCBS on FM because they had a signal with no revenue to do it on. KFRC was losing money. KHHT makes money and I doubt in this economy, Clear Channel can afford to lose that profit right now. Say it profits $10 million (using a round figure), can they increase KFI's revenue that much.
Unless they could find a suitable AM replacement, it doesn't seem to make sense (or dollars).
A real News/Talk on FM could do at least decent in L.A.
If Sports was a bigger draw in this market, you could move KFI to 92.3 and KLAC to 640 - but this just isn't a Sports Radio town. Then you'd have 570 to fill...
Unless they could find a suitable AM replacement, it doesn't seem to make sense (or dollars).
A real News/Talk on FM could do at least decent in L.A.
If Sports was a bigger draw in this market, you could move KFI to 92.3 and KLAC to 640 - but this just isn't a Sports Radio town. Then you'd have 570 to fill...
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4UH8SIMBKAGN
Guest
Sports radio would do quite well on FM in Los Angeles and the male numbers it would deliver would bring in huge revenues. The biggest hole in this market is sports on FM. This is a tv news market, not radio. News/Talk won't ever work in this market, FM or AM. ONLY KFI style talk would work on FM in Los Angeles. How many times must I post this is an entertainment town and we want to be entertained. Why do you think car chases do so well on local tv and you can even be paged by a service when they occur?Radioresearcher said:
4UH8SIMBKAGN said:
This is not a sports town. AM, FM or XM, there is not a lot of sports furror here, particularly when we realize that the largest attendance figures locally are generated by Chivas games.
KFI is news/talk. It seems to work.
That's what is called "news/talk" in ever market in the US.
How is KFI any different than WLW or WWL or WTAM or KFAB?
They do so well because they are mostly a Southland phenomenon; remember that the grandfather of the car chase was the OJ incident.
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4UH8SIMBKAGN
Guest
KFI is not News/Talk nor do they ("More Stimulating Talk Radio") or any ratings service refer to them as News/Talk. It's entertaining issue oriented talk with a slight outrageous value (in drive times). KFI has news at the top and bottom of the hour with few other exceptions. KFI's morning drive, afternoon drive hosts are nothing like any other station that you mention with one exception at WLW. There is no station in America that is quite like KFI.DavidEduardo said:
Car chases were going on local tv well before O.J.. TV helicopters, with the exception of the KTLA Telecopter which was later sold to KNBC, have been a local mainstay of local tv stations over the last 20+ years.
There is plenty of sports "furor" here from Dodgers baseball (do I need to put attendance figures on this board....it was their third highest ever year and they are nearly 1,000,000 more than the average MLB team), to USC/UCLA football (Rose Bowl. How many other college football games sell out over 100,000 seats?)to Lakers basketball...numerous tennis/glof tournements.... It's problem with the NFL is it won't build a stadium on the taxpayer dollar and local black leaders want to keep rebuilding the Coliseum which should be blown up. Must I post the local tv ratings for sporting events?
The biggest sports figure in Los Angeles is Kobe not any soccer player...and there are plenty of Dodger players that are big local sports figures as well...or even a now former USC football qb...so I have no clue what you are posting about. There are plenty of big sports figures in this market.
4UH8SIMBKAGN said:
The Arbitron PPM descriptor for KFI is "News Talk Information." Since I can't think of any other ratings service doing LA, that must mean you are wrong.
It's news / talk for LA just as WCCO is news / talk for Minneapolis. The standard term for any kind of talker with either newscasts or news as topical matter is "news talk."
And in what way does that make the OJ chase NOT be the granddaddy of all car chases. It just shows that in LA, when in doubt, roar around the freeways with cops in pursuit.
Yeah, in a market with more population than NYC within driving distance. Big deal.
Yes, and post the ratings for equivalent events in big sports towns. You will lose.
"Chivas" is the soccer team of Guadalajara, and the favorite of LA Hispanics, who could care less about the Galaxy.
4
4UH8SIMBKAGN
Guest
I know what "Chivas" is and the most popular "Chivas" in Los Angeles has the name Regal after it... Soccer is not nor ever will be the most popular sport in Los Angeles. I look forward to the coming depression just to rid Los Angeles of the illegal aliens tat watch that team locally...and thankfully, they're starting to leave.DavidEduardo said:
Attendance figures: Dodgers #3, Angeles #6 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance
Lakers #8, Clippers #22 http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/attendance (Los Angeles being the only city in the nation with two NBA teams...ok, 1 1/2 teams)
USC #6, UCLA #23 http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/article/124369
MLS Soccer Attendance, Ratings Down http://www.sportsbusinessjournal.com/article/60481
KFI is not news talk and never claim ato be. Show me on their website where they are news/talk. Show me in their promotional materials where they are news/talk. They are not WCCO. They are not WLW. They are not KGO. They are not a news station more than Movin 93.9 is with their top and bottom of the hour news during Rick Dees show. Or would you like to call KFI is not news talk and never claim ato be. Show me on their website where they are news/talk. Show me in their promotional materials where they are news/talk. They are not WCCO. They are not WLW. They are not KGO. They are not a news station more than Movin 93.9 is with their top and bottom of the hour news during morning drive. Or would you like to call Movin Hot AC/News? Or shall we call the old KMPC, under Mark Blinoff, that had news at the top and bottom of the hour AC/News? Get real.
Who's talking granddaddy of car chases? Only you. My point is how tv and (rarely radio) infulences the attitudes of Los Angeles (exception KFI) and where Angelenos turn to get their news (tv not radio). The most important local event in modern Los Angeles broadcast history is the live tv helecopter Reginald Denny betting (moving truck) on KCOP at the start of the Los Angeles riots. That televised moment, aside from the not guilty verdicts live on tv which sparked the anger but did not start the riots, is the single event that made the riots spread throughout Los Angeles and cost hundreds of millions in damage.
Why don't we talk the real bread and butter. The bottom line. Lets compare KLAC's revenues to KABC's. KABC only gets a bump when they end up with the Dodgers. Sports does well for Los Angeels radio stations and would do even better on FM.
I know what "Chivas" is and the most popular "Chivas" in Los Angeles has the name Regal after it... Soccer is not nor ever will be the most popular sport in Los Angeles. I look forward to the coming depression just to rid Los Angeles of the illegal aliens tat watch that team locally...and thankfully, they're starting to leave.[/quote]
Most Hispanics here are legal, and, in any case, this is not an immigration board. The market is over 40% Hispanic, and among most Hispanics there is only one sport (as is so all over the world save the US) and that is soccer. The fact that US Football, basketball and baseball are not sports known to most of the world means that not only the Latin American immigrants but those from Russia or the former Soviet nations or even the Middle East are not easily going to be attracted to US sports... and that's around half the market.
We are discussing an industry term that defines stations with Rush or Laura or Hannity or savage or their equivalents, with or withpout local content, and with social and political content based on current events.
KFI is to LA what WCCO is to New York or what KGO is to San Francisco.
Golly, the slogan of "more stimulating talk radio" would be a pretty big giveaway. Add the fact that they have news twice an hour and news updates preceeding them and you would conclude they also do news, as well. And by industry standards, they are "news/talk" and they use the term in their own format descriptor with Arbitron (something you defied me to show...)
[/quote]They are not WCCO. They are not WLW. They are not KGO. They are not a news station more than Movin 93.9 is with their top and bottom of the hour news during Rick Dees show. Or would you like to call KFI is not news talk and never claim ato be. Show me on their website where they are news/talk. Show me in their promotional materials where they are news/talk. They are not WCCO. They are not WLW. They are not KGO. [/quote]
Run over to Burger King. They promote "having it your way." "News Talk" is the idustry term for this kind of station, whatever local flavor it may have. KFI has talk shows. It has newscasts, regularly. It's news/talk.
[/quote]The most important local event in modern Los Angeles broadcast history is the live tv helecopter Reginald Denny betting (moving truck) on KCOP at the start of the Los Angeles riots. That televised moment, aside from the not guilty verdicts live on tv which sparked the anger but did not start the riots, is the single event that made the riots spread throughout Los Angeles and cost hundreds of millions in damage.[/quote]
The incident was the beating, not the chase. Different topic.
Most Hispanics here are legal, and, in any case, this is not an immigration board. The market is over 40% Hispanic, and among most Hispanics there is only one sport (as is so all over the world save the US) and that is soccer. The fact that US Football, basketball and baseball are not sports known to most of the world means that not only the Latin American immigrants but those from Russia or the former Soviet nations or even the Middle East are not easily going to be attracted to US sports... and that's around half the market.
We are discussing an industry term that defines stations with Rush or Laura or Hannity or savage or their equivalents, with or withpout local content, and with social and political content based on current events.
KFI is to LA what WCCO is to New York or what KGO is to San Francisco.
Golly, the slogan of "more stimulating talk radio" would be a pretty big giveaway. Add the fact that they have news twice an hour and news updates preceeding them and you would conclude they also do news, as well. And by industry standards, they are "news/talk" and they use the term in their own format descriptor with Arbitron (something you defied me to show...)
[/quote]They are not WCCO. They are not WLW. They are not KGO. They are not a news station more than Movin 93.9 is with their top and bottom of the hour news during Rick Dees show. Or would you like to call KFI is not news talk and never claim ato be. Show me on their website where they are news/talk. Show me in their promotional materials where they are news/talk. They are not WCCO. They are not WLW. They are not KGO. [/quote]
Run over to Burger King. They promote "having it your way." "News Talk" is the idustry term for this kind of station, whatever local flavor it may have. KFI has talk shows. It has newscasts, regularly. It's news/talk.
[/quote]The most important local event in modern Los Angeles broadcast history is the live tv helecopter Reginald Denny betting (moving truck) on KCOP at the start of the Los Angeles riots. That televised moment, aside from the not guilty verdicts live on tv which sparked the anger but did not start the riots, is the single event that made the riots spread throughout Los Angeles and cost hundreds of millions in damage.[/quote]
The incident was the beating, not the chase. Different topic.
K6JHU said:
I think I must have had a section of my post highlighted or something that caused it to loose a bunch of stations... I wanted to say "what WCCO is to the Twin Cities, what KMOX is to St. Louis, what WJR is to Detroit, what WTAM is to Cleveland, what WSB is to Atlanta, what WWL is to New Orleans, what KFAB is to Omaha, what WABC is to New York..." and so on.
I was not as concerned with dominance (KFI is not dominant in LA, either) but with each station in some way having a feel for its market, while also carrying some syndicated programming, too. And whatever the mix, all are correctly called "news talk."
WBZ is a hybrid of sorts, and not as good a fit as WTIC or WGY in that region... or WCBM or WBAL to the south.
Arbitron labels news-oriented, or current events-oriented, talk programming as News/Talk/Information, which is what WABC, KFI, WGN, KGO, etc. are labeled. Predominantly lifestyles-oriented talk programming, such as KLSX, is labeled Talk/Personality. The amount of news coverage among News/Talk stations across the country varies considerably from market-to-market, much like the mixture of Rhythmic to Rock music varies among CHR/Top 40 stations from market-to-market.
4UH8SIMBKAGN said:
I guess we've forgotten all-sports KMAX (107.1) back in the late 90s, which featured Joe McDonnell, Bob Rowe, and The Fabulous Sports Babe, among others. Maybe it had signal problems, but it didn't do much business with the areas that could receive it.
The Rose Bowl has not seated over 100,000 since 1997. Readjustments were made to the lower seating area, and official capacity is now 92,542.
The only times UCLA actually sells out the Rose Bowl is when they're the home team against USC, or on the rare occasions when a non-conference visiting team is a big name like Notre Dame or Alabama. Otherwise, they rarely get over 70,000.
For all intents and purposes, the "keys" to the Coliseum have been handed over to USC by the Coliseum Commission. The university did not want to share the facility with an NFL tenant. It took years, but the Commission has finally realized that the NFL has absolutely no interest in returning to that venue. If they had realized that earlier, the expansion franchise that is now known as the Houston Texans would have been the Los Angeles Whatevers, playing their home games in a brand new state-of-the-art privately financed stadium located right next to Dodger Stadium. Roadblocks by then-mayor Richard Riordan, the Coliseum Commission, and Councilman Mark Ridley-Thomas prevented that from happening. It wound up playing a part in Peter O'Malley's decision to sell the Dodgers and get out of the professional sports biz altogether.
The proposed stadium in the City of Industry would be privately financed. Voters in the township just approved public financing to build intrastructure roads leading to the stadium property, which is privately owned by developer Ed Roski, and would consist of the stadium, practice fields, and hotels. Roski has said that he would not build the stadium without a team committing to play in it, but what is known is that an inquiry has been made by what's labeled as only "an interested party" about using the Coliseum on fall weekends for two seasons. Your guess on who that "interested party" is is as good as mine.
AM FM listener said:
Arbitron only provides the acceptable labels; stations fill in the Arbitron form and put in the format label they feel best fits the station. If any station picks a descriptor that is not appropriate, other stations may ask Arbitron to review the designation.
So KFI itself selected News Talk Information as its descriptor.
4UH8SIMBKAGN said:
Now I'm feeling lonely; I like Kennedy & Suits more than anyone else on KFI. Well, I like Suits, very very much, and Kennedy's, um, unconventional radio voice doesn't bother me the way it does some (most?). She's really very sharp and quick on her mental feet. The show doesn't have the stridency of John & Ken and it's just plain smarter on the issues than Handel.
I didn't go in with a good attitude about Suits. I was pissed about Ziegler leaving (at least until I found out he was a little bit loopy). But now, if I had to pick just one KFI show to listen to, his (theirs) would be it.
J
JoshuaEscandon
Guest
AM is not dead at all. KFI does very well and has the awards to prove it. Radio in general is going thru a huge transition period, along with many other businesses. As long as radio can remain compelling, interesting, topical and reflect the voices of it's listeners radio will always have a base.
JoshuaEscandon.com
JoshuaEscandon.com
JoshuaEscandon said:
Just because a few plants are still living in the rain forest does not mean that the ecosystem is not endangered.
KFI is an exception... the 12+ share for AM is declining, but the bulk of the listeners are now over 55 and are not "salable."
In some markets, like Washington, DC, AM has less than 8 total shares, and under 55, the number is around a 3% or 4% level. As the listeners age, nobody new is replacing them on AM. This is why in dozens of markets traditional AM news / talk ("the station with Rush on it") have moved to FM totally or started a simulcast... the 35-54 demos that like the format use FM, and do not use AM.
J
JoshuaEscandon
Guest
David,
I agree and disagree with you. Radio and many other businesses are in decline. My main point is AM seems to be where talk radio has a solid home. So, as long as people enjoy talk radio I believe it will be a salable entity no matter the platform.
Is it receding? Yes, but so is everything else. Will AM eventually give way to another or different outlet? I believe yes because digital is taking over and re-inventing the entire business landscape and the digital transition is not confined to radio only.
David, I have a question for you. Is the digital transition for TV going to happen with radio as well? From what I understand, withstanding being corrected, the government is not only taking back TV signals but also radio signals. Is this correct? Is the government not only taking VHF and UHF back, but also radio frequencies as well?
Is this not the reason for HD radio? I didn't completely finish reading the entire Telecommunications Act just yet!
So anyone with some clarification on this subject would be appreciated.
Cheers,
JoshuaEscandon.com
I agree and disagree with you. Radio and many other businesses are in decline. My main point is AM seems to be where talk radio has a solid home. So, as long as people enjoy talk radio I believe it will be a salable entity no matter the platform.
Is it receding? Yes, but so is everything else. Will AM eventually give way to another or different outlet? I believe yes because digital is taking over and re-inventing the entire business landscape and the digital transition is not confined to radio only.
David, I have a question for you. Is the digital transition for TV going to happen with radio as well? From what I understand, withstanding being corrected, the government is not only taking back TV signals but also radio signals. Is this correct? Is the government not only taking VHF and UHF back, but also radio frequencies as well?
Is this not the reason for HD radio? I didn't completely finish reading the entire Telecommunications Act just yet!
So anyone with some clarification on this subject would be appreciated.
Cheers,
JoshuaEscandon.com
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