Is Classic Rock Dying?

[hm insulators]

I like the "everything that rocks" approach, such as KDKB here in Phoenix, uses. True, if they play something from the last ten to fifteen years, I'll often tune it out, but that's because I've never been crazy about "nu metal" with its grunge-influenced whining and dissonant guitars (playing the same hanging chord over and over again with the distortion set at "max" does not a riff make) and rap metal (see my third signature). In a little bit, I'll tune in again if I didn't find something else to listen to; I bounce all around my car radio anyway, trying to avoid commercials and the 35,873rd replay of "Hotel California" or "Brown Eyed Girl."

 

[Avid Listener]

I bounce all around my car radio anyway, trying to avoid commercials and the 35,873rd replay of "Hotel California" or "Brown Eyed Girl."

But, that cannot be! Don't you know that Hotel California and Brown Eyed Girl tested at the top of the scale? Clearly, if the tests say you should like something, but you don't like it, then you must be wrong because the testing never fails!

 

[landtuna]

Disagree all you want, but there's no Classic Rock category in the Grammy Awards or in record stores. As the linked article says, the name grew out of the old AOR format, and was named by radio people. No one grows up dreaming of becoming a classic rock artist. It's something they become after they've had success.

The Grammies do not determine my personal categories. I, as a customer, determine theirs. Of course, these are the same idiots and mental defectives who consider rap a musical category. 'Nuff said.

I would also question your attachment of AOR to Classic Rock. Some is. Some isn't. AOR started as nothing more than the deep cuts that bands produced while they were jerking around in the studio after recording their pop(ular) music and having taken too many tokes on the pipe. The stuff that was too long or too cutting edge for T40 radio back in the day. The stuff we could now call Pure Rock instead of the pop rock that was heard more frequently on AM radio.

There is a particular sound common to CR that is indeed the desired destination of certain rock bands although they tend to take success where they find it so misdirections are also common.

You still have record stores where you are???

 

[landtuna]

Classic rock stations will move the time line further down the road (I hear Pearl Jam & Nirvana) on some stations now (RHCP) too, and in 20 years we will hear the same comments about those songs also.

Because CR stations, like virtually every other music station (except those locked in the past like Standards, Big Band, Disco etc.) are playing what their listeners are familiar with because the suits believe "if you've never heard it, you won't like it".

 

[TheBigA]

The Grammies do not determine my personal categories.

And your personal categories don't determine radio formats.

Because CR stations, like virtually every other music station (except those locked in the past like Standards, Big Band, Disco etc.) are playing what their listeners are familiar with because the suits believe "if you've never heard it, you won't like it".

The suits don't get involved in programming, and programmers don't wear suits.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Because CR stations, like virtually every other music station (except those locked in the past like Standards, Big Band, Disco etc.) are playing what their listeners are familiar with because the suits believe "if you've never heard it, you won't like it".

Standards stations aren't "locked in the past". There's lots of new material, though most of it is familiar songs recorded by new people.

 

[Avid Listener]

Standards stations aren't "locked in the past". There's lots of new material, though most of it is familiar songs recorded by new people.

Or, new songs recorded by familiar people. Which brings us full circle to what the radio format called "Classic Rock" should be, instead of what the suits turned it into.

And it should be noted that one need not wear a matching pants and jacket with a shirt and tie to be a "suit". Referring to management types who remain in their ivory towers, ignoring reality and/or what the peons who actually enjoy music really want as "suits" is a figure of speech. People who are actually qualified to work in any communication media understand the concept of "figures of speech" and don't act like jerks trying to take figures of speech literally.

 

[TheBigA]

Referring to management types who remain in their ivory towers, ignoring reality and/or what the peons who actually enjoy music really want as "suits" is a figure of speech.

Then that also doesn't work with your application. Because the people who program classic rock stations, at least the ones I know, are very involved with the music and the audience. Their personal music collections are far larger than what they play on the radio. But they play what their audience wants to hear, and that's often a smaller group of songs than what the programmers know or like.

Let me add that I've been to concerts by The Eagles and Van Morrison, and there's no question that the songs they do that get the biggest applause from the audience are the songs that get the most airplay on the radio. You'd think otherwise, but it's true.

 

[landtuna]

And your personal categories don't determine radio formats.

And we (I) ain't talkin' about radio formats.

The suits don't get involved in programming, and programmers don't wear suits.

Technically you may be correct but consider the hammer coming down on the PD when the ratings fall. Indirectly perhaps the suits are still in charge.

 

[landtuna]

Standards stations aren't "locked in the past". There's lots of new material, though most of it is familiar songs recorded by new people.

"Covers" (old songs recorded by new artists) are not new unless the arrangement is substantially different or it fits a different genre (which would make it non-Standards, right?).

 

[Avid Listener]

"Covers" (old songs recorded by new artists) are not new unless the arrangement is substantially different or it fits a different genre (which would make it non-Standards, right?).

Now you're treading on uncertain terrain. You make a good point about the difference between covers and remakes. Using the original definitions of those terms, "covers" were faithful copies, usually something along the lines of Pat Boone doing a vanilla version of a Little Richard song. "Remakes" were total re-works of songs, such as the Vanilla Fudge version of Holland-Dozier-Holland's You Keep Me Hangin' On, originally by the Supremes. A song which, incidentally, wasn't all that vanilla.

Then there are such remakes as the original Layla by Derek and the Dominos and Eric Clapton's unplugged version, which though an excellent song, was almost unrecognizable compared to the original.

I would suggest looking to the world of lounge music "standards" for guidance. Standards were what guys in tuxedos would sing in smoky saloons when people like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett were on top, guys like John Davidson and Jack Jones were in the middle, and guys Bill Murray made fun of on SNL were at the bottom. In the clubs where the bottom tier guys performed, the "house band" was there every week, and knew all the standard songs. That's why they were called "standards". Each week, the new guy in a tuxedo came in and sang the "standards".

There were rock "standards" even back in the garage band days of the 60s. Every garage band was expected to know certain universal rock songs, like Gloria, House of the Rising Sun, or Ina-Gadda-Da-Vida.

Today, in searching for new MP3's, I've stumbled on some modern "standards" that seem to be included in many performers' live acts, even though they aren't recorded hits. Examples are Lilac Wine, Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah and Bird on a Wire. Every big-voiced female singer, from Celine Dion on down, is obligated to sing The Power of Love and How am I Supposed to Live Without You.

 

[TheBigA]

Technically you may be correct but consider the hammer coming down on the PD when the ratings fall. Indirectly perhaps the suits are still in charge.

If the ratings fall, the LISTENERS are in charge. Listeners determine the ratings.

 

[Unregistered]

You mean a handful of listeners with the meters or diaries determine the ratings. A station doesn't have a listener in the PPM panel and their ratings suddenly disappear. Even if thousands without the meters listen.

 

[landtuna]

If the ratings fall, the LISTENERS are in charge. Listeners determine the ratings.

As Pepe le Pew would say "You are splitting the hair Monsieur". Of course listeners determine the ratings but should they fall the hammer comes down on the PD because he/she isn't playing what the people want to hear.

 

[landtuna]

Today, in searching for new MP3's, I've stumbled on some modern "standards" that seem to be included in many performers' live acts, even though they aren't recorded hits. Examples are Lilac Wine, Leonard Cohen's Hallelujah and Bird on a Wire. Every big-voiced female singer, from Celine Dion on down, is obligated to sing The Power of Love and How am I Supposed to Live Without You.

I haven't heard a live act since John Denver was alive and I don't attend clubs so my experience with lounge liz, er, singers is nil. The best example of Standards I can come up with are the Christmas albums which virtually every solo artist and a lot of bands seem obligated to play. I don't see the need personally.

 

[Avid Listener]

I haven't heard a live act since John Denver was alive and I don't attend clubs so my experience with lounge liz, er, singers is nil. The best example of Standards I can come up with are the Christmas albums which virtually every solo artist and a lot of bands seem obligated to play. I don't see the need personally.

I don't get to attend nearly as many concerts as I would like, but thanks to people with cell phone video cameras, you can see all sorts of live recordings on YouTube. Some are even professionally made and released on DVD by the artists. And, even though radio programmers won't give a new artist singing an old song (or an old artist singing a new song) a break to save their mother's life, there are some good ones who'll produce fairly good videos that get on YouTube to promote the downloading of their MP3s. And, fans will often upload cuts from non-airplay artists with no video other than a still frame of the cover. No matter how you slice it, YouTube is a great resource for finding really great music that no radio station suit would ever give a chance to.

This is a cover of a well known song, performed by a different well known band from the same era.

This is a remake of an old song by a radio-ignored artist. Her work has been on TV soundtracks, and she's written hits for other artists.

And of course, this song will never be played on the radio. Too close to the truth.

 

[TheBigA]

As Pepe le Pew would say "You are splitting the hair Monsieur". Of course listeners determine the ratings but should they fall the hammer comes down on the PD because he/she isn't playing what the people want to hear.

What's wrong about that? Radio stations don't play what the PD or the suits want to hear, but what attracts the most listeners.

 

[TheBigA]

And of course, this song will never be played on the radio. Too close to the truth.

Except that it did. It got enough airplay to reach #22 in the mainstream rock charts, which isn't bad considering it was basically biting the hand that feeds it. Lots of other similar songs got airplay, such as "Murder On Music Row," "Radio Radio," and the Dixie Chicks "Not Ready To Make Nice."

 

[Avid Listener]

Except that it did. It got enough airplay to reach #22 in the mainstream rock charts, which isn't bad considering it was basically biting the hand that feeds it. Lots of other similar songs got airplay, such as "Murder On Music Row," "Radio Radio," and the Dixie Chicks "Not Ready To Make Nice."

It was never played on a station on the air in the market where I lived.

 

[vchimpanzee]

Now you're treading on uncertain terrain. You make a good point about the difference between covers and remakes. Using the original definitions of those terms, "covers" were faithful copies, usually something along the lines of Pat Boone doing a vanilla version of a Little Richard song. "Remakes" were total re-works of songs, such as the Vanilla Fudge version of Holland-Dozier-Holland's You Keep Me Hangin' On, originally by the Supremes. A song which, incidentally, wasn't all that vanilla.

Certainly not the angry Kim Wilde version.