"Is HD Radio Toast?"

[JIBGUY]

Savage is correct in everything he says. Since IBLOC is the most terrible system known to man for, over time, converting AM to digital, the only conclusion that I can think of is that ANYone who is pro-IBLOC has gotta either be on a hidden payroll, or wants to kiss up to their pro-IBLOC corporate masters. Why ELSE would anyone be in favor of a system that destroys other stations.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

The damn religion and other hucksters are gradually doing to AM what they've done to shortwave, and people here are worried about DX'ing.

Lino

I don't think it's been all that gradual, especially lately, with the rate of migration to FM of the last remaining successful AM formats (news/talk and sports/talk) picking up speed.

I don't see that big a programming gap between AM and SW anymore, and it's getting narrower all the time.

Europe's SW broadcasters seem to be embracing DRM. Maybe the time has come for AM here in "The good ole US of A" to take a MUCH CLOSER LOOK at DRM. It just might be AM's last best hope.

 

[Mike Walker]

European MW and LW (they have two AM bands) bands are practically empty. Lots of open frequencies. Our AM broadcast band is (too) full...there's one of the suckers in just about every town with a stoplight and Post Office. DRM requires an extra frequency for the digital signal. In other words, if you're on 580, you'll have to have another assigned channel somewhere in the AM band for digital, since there is no "hybrid" mode for DRM. It simply can't work here ON THE AM BAND. Not without another frequency band (26mhz?) being assigned. Next idea?

 

[clouseau]

Savage is correct in everything he says.

Isn't this post going to be enlightening...

Since IBLOC

Lovely

is the most terrible system known to man

Nice to see the civil discourse..

for, over time, converting AM to digital, the only conclusion that I can think of is that ANYone who is pro-IBLOC has gotta either be on a hidden payroll, or wants to kiss up to their pro-IBLOC corporate masters.

I have often marveled at how the "Anti HD" MOB has the unmitigated GALL to repeatedly accuse HD supporters of ARROGANCE when the anti Mob asserts "We are so right that if you disagree with us then you are a bribe receiipient or you're kissing up to your employer."
It's just amazing...

Why ELSE would anyone be in favor of a system that destroys other stations.

Maybe someone has the audacity to actually disgree with your overall assessment of the situation? Is it possible, that when looking for an authoritative representaion of the system and how it works and what it does and does not do, "Ask Savage & Jibguy" was NOT the first selection on the list?

I would suspect so. Sorry if I burst your bubble. If it makes you feel any better, "Ask Clouseau" wasn't up there that far either.

There may be some issues with this system that need some alteration. Wildly false, broad sweeping attacks about people's character doesn't really advance that cause.

Clouseau

 

[Savage]

Thank you Hippo, Dighton, Tom Wells, JIBguy, & vsa....there you have it. The posts speak for themselves. I make my IBOC arguments. Instead of countering them, the pro-HD crowd responds with shrill and intemperate abuse, attributing statements to me I never made and putting down my radio station.

And it's naked for everyone to see: pro-IBOCers would anoint themselves as arbiters of which AM stations should be sacrificed to clear the band to make way for their beloved HD-AM at night. Presumably, from these recent posters, that would include WYSL.

So let's do a reality check re: who's kidding themselves and who are not.

HD receiver sales are so embarassing, the Alliance won't even release figures. The tiny selection of available products is shrinking. This weekend I did a turn through Rochester-area electronics retailers and TRIED to buy an HD radio....Best Buy, Circuit City, The Shack, Wal-Mart, a local car stereo specialist. How many did I see? Precisely: ZERO. Two of the three Radio Shacks I visited told me the Accurian is "disco'ed." When I asked about the Insignia bookshelfer, the clerk rolled his eyes and said without enthusiasm "you could special order it if you want."

How does the public feel about HD? That's a tough one, since you'd find the task of finding somebody on the street who's even aware of HD, a daunting obstacle. Despite the much-vaunted "industry marketing campaign" royally imposed on its customers by iBiquity, consumer awareness of IBOC, AM or FM, hovers just above zero. Observers agree that the HD marketing effort has been unbelievably ineffective, a major embarassment for an industry which makes its living helping its clients market and advertise products and services.

There are 1700 operating HD stations. In the WORLD, including noncoms and NPRs in the US. About 70 AMs are operating HD at night. Even with a nighttime HD population representing about 1.6% of the total AM stations on the air, the adjacent-channel interference problems were bad enough to prompt Citadel to turn theirs off, after spending MILLIONS in conversion to HD - after TWO weeks. And the complaints are continuing.

Industry reports of the status of HD Radio are not encouraging, and getting bleaker. I'm not talking about the consultants Radioman and Lino hold in such low esteem. I'm talking about decidedly downbeat pieces in Radio World, Radio Ink, and various industry blogs.

So go ahead, slam my station, ridicule me. Since the corporate-types enjoy instructing me how to be successful with my radio station (after I've turned a profit annually for decades with a standalone AM) turnabout is fair play: if you want real answers about competition from new media, you guys are gonna have to address your programming and involvement deficit, instead of pinning your hopes on the latest rack-mounted fad-box at the transmitter.

 

[clouseau]

Thank you Hippo, Dighton, Tom Wells, JIBguy, & vsa....there you have it. The posts speak for themselves. I make my IBOC arguments. Instead of countering them, the pro-HD crowd responds with shrill and intemperate abuse, attributing statements to me I never made and putting down my radio station.

Bob,

What ARE you talking about? You have made exactlly 4 posts in this 5 page thread beside the one I'm replying to.... Here's the links.

You told us about the intro of TV and FM history here...
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,83926.msg625056.html#msg625056

You gave us your opinion of Richard Harker and Consultants here
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,83926.msg627147.html#msg627147

You agreed with another poster that HD radio was Still Born and went off on HD "genius capitalists" because you've apparently been called a Neandethal, here.
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,83926.msg627455.html#msg627455

You AGAIN told us about consultants and related 13-Q history HERE.
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,83926.msg627623.html#msg627623


And based on these four posts in this thread, you cry foul and declare victory and claim the morally superior ground? What ARE you talking about?

And it's naked for everyone to see: pro-IBOCers would anoint themselves as arbiters of which AM stations should be sacrificed to clear the band to make way for their beloved HD-AM at night. Presumably, from these recent posters, that would include WYSL.

Bob, I know you are passionate about this and frankly, you may have a legitimate beef. For the life of me, this last post you just put up makes NO SENSE with regards to this thread. NONE.

So let's do a reality check re: who's kidding themselves and who are not.

HD receiver sales are so embarassing, the Alliance won't even release figures. The tiny selection of available products is shrinking.

C'mon, Bob. You read the boards. This isn't true.

This weekend I did a turn through Rochester-area electronics retailers and TRIED to buy an HD radio....Best Buy, Circuit City, The Shack, Wal-Mart, a local car stereo specialist. How many did I see? Precisely: ZERO. Two of the three Radio Shacks I visited told me the Accurian is "disco'ed." When I asked about the Insignia bookshelfer, the clerk rolled his eyes and said without enthusiasm "you could special order it if you want."

Is this the "I make my IBOC arguments" stuff you're referring to?

How does the public feel about HD? That's a tough one, since you'd find the task of finding somebody on the street who's even aware of HD, a daunting obstacle. Despite the much-vaunted "industry marketing campaign" royally imposed on its customers by iBiquity, consumer awareness of IBOC, AM or FM, hovers just above zero. Observers agree that the HD marketing effort has been unbelievably ineffective, a major embarassment for an industry which makes its living helping its clients market and advertise products and services.

Is THIS your argument you're referring to?

There are 1700 operating HD stations. In the WORLD, including noncoms and NPRs in the US. About 70 AMs are operating HD at night. Even with a nighttime HD population representing about 1.6% of the total AM stations on the air, the adjacent-channel interference problems were bad enough to prompt Citadel to turn theirs off, after spending MILLIONS in conversion to HD - after TWO weeks. And the complaints are continuing.

Now this actually might mean something. And it probably is getting "Addressing". I would hope so and would stand up and say so. I just did. From an Anecdotal standpoint, I would have to say the amout of Crabbing about AM HD has diminished by a good amount compared to it's introduction. I base this on mailing lists and internet boards and the like. If there are specific places or instances that need attention, then they need attention. That doesn't make anyone Neaderthals.

Industry reports of the status of HD Radio are not encouraging, and getting bleaker. I'm not talking about the consultants Radioman and Lino hold in such low esteem. I'm talking about decidedly downbeat pieces in Radio World, Radio Ink, and various industry blogs.

Is there a level of disappointment with regards to the speed of adaptation? I'd say definitively yes. Is that disappointment being addressed in industry publications? Yes again. Why is this relevant to the technical discussion?

So go ahead, slam my station, ridicule me. Since the corporate-types enjoy instructing me how to be successful with my radio station (after I've turned a profit annually for decades with a standalone AM) turnabout is fair play: if you want real answers about competition from new media, you guys are gonna have to address your programming and involvement deficit, instead of pinning your hopes on the latest rack-mounted fad-box at the transmitter.

No one should be slamming anything about your station. And I really like the term "Involvement Deficit". You can bet it will be in our next staff meeting. I've always wanted a good term to describe that issue. That's it.

As Mike Walker says on a regular basis with regards to content and HD.... "It's not one or the other..."

I still contend if perceived "Better Programming" actually gave you "Higher ratings" or more revenue then we'd have it...

Clouseau

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

European MW and LW (they have two AM bands) bands are practically empty. Lots of open frequencies. Our AM broadcast band is (too) full...there's one of the suckers in just about every town with a stoplight and Post Office. DRM requires an extra frequency for the digital signal. In other words, if you're on 580, you'll have to have another assigned channel somewhere in the AM band for digital, since there is no "hybrid" mode for DRM. It simply can't work here ON THE AM BAND. Not without another frequency band (26mhz?) being assigned. Next idea?

Mike:

If the LW, SW, and 26Mhz. bands are really as empty as you say they are, then maybe you've just provided the framework where a solution could be hammered out.

Obviously the FCC and ITU would have to co-operate on this one (not holding my breath...) But:

US AM stations could, in theory, be assigned that second frequency you say they would need for DRM......wherever there is an empty spot on the LW, SW, or 26Mhz band. Also, it wouldn't hurt if, with all the UHF and VHF spectrum soon to be auctioned off......if the FCC could find a couple of Megahertz somewhere else to supplement the above mentioned bands.

And, to avoid confusion on the part of the listener, these DRM receivers could employ the "mapping" technology which would simply ignore the acutal frequecny on which a broadcaster is operating. This way, someone listening to analog WYSL 1040 could choose to listen to its DRM version somewhere on one of the other bands and have the same 1040 "branding" appear on the LCD readout.

To avoid the dreaded skywave that some of the pro-IBOC-ers seem to think is so evil, perhaps the so-called "skywave suppression" technology that the US26Mhz website and DRM consortium is trying to sell could be employed.

This of course assumes that there's enough sentiment and goodwill out there to try to save AM......the mother of audio broadcasting.

I think this could actually work......which, or course means that it will never happen.

 

[hipporadio]

Thank you Hippo, Dighton, Tom Wells, JIBguy, & vsa....there you have it. The posts speak for themselves... And it's naked for everyone to see...

OH MY GOD—a fat hairy body... ‘Let’s import a few drag-queens for commentary about the AM IBOC mess

HD receiver sales are so embarassing, the Alliance won't even release figures. The tiny selection of available products is shrinking...

YES THEY ARE! It’s “my biz” and I’m paid-nicely to know... Despite the uniformed and contrarian opinions here [from the HD enthusiasts]—SALES are abysmal; AND BOTH the Radio Shack HD Acurian AND Boston Acoustics HD Receptor HAVE been DISCONTINUED—despite their “web presence”—maintained ONLY to clear UN-SOLD back-stock!

I have not met Bob Savage [or shook his hand]—although I would LIKE TO! ...I have never heard his 1040 format—and likely will not; but I can completely-sympathize with his moral outrage... WHEN he invested his 200K in an upgrade, he had NO WARNING of the IBOC trespass that was yet to come—MOST DIDN’T!

The “Boulevard IBOCers” here reference his miniscule nighttime audience—yet they conveniently fail to acknowledge the equally-dismal tally of the Boston station that slashes his moral-attempt at making a living.

The “rules” seem to creatively change—and near-ALWAYS in the favor of bumbling “corporate radio”—now under official attack from their stockholders for their “creative distortions” and practice. These entities—charged with “public trustee” status are SERVING FEW, and are [in effect] in complete violation of their public covenant... Then their apologists dare grace this board and ATTACK the likes of Mr. Savage? Sad—VERY SAD!

I’m sometimes SORRY that I love the art of radio as I do... HOLD-ON... “Art” is a non-permissible term to employ in today’s “corporate radio culture”... SORRY for my sentimental misgiving :

 

[Savage]

Inspector - if you "don't know what I'm talking about" you're choosing not to listen. The links you posted refer to material which has to be read in the context of the discussion at that point in the thread, such as (as an example) the history of various technologies, such as early-adopter TV and FM. Earlier posters had drawn a parallel between those innovations and HD and I was just participating, which I had supposed was SOP on discussion boards.

The passage you claim "makes no sense with regard to this thread" has to be read as a response to Lino's earlier disparagement which was directed at yours truly and WYSL, and which was not a technical argument (nor even a logical one.) Scroll up and read his post and you'll see what I mean. Hopefully.

Okay, Clouseau: so if reliable sales figures for HD receivers sold to date are indeed available, what's the total? (I refer to actual retail sales, not including the stacks of samples/demos in Clear Channel prize closets.)

The ensuing argument was a summary of the state of HD radio, which its proponents insist is doing fine despite considerable, and mounting, evidence to the contrary. The summary was a reponse to a previous barrage of emotional and nontechnical invective aimed at me personally because of my challenges regarding IBOC. I was trying to make the point that certain posters suggesting that I am personally in some form of denial regarding IBOC and AM radio ought to do their own "reality check."

And, Inspector, I thank you for your (mostly) measured and fair statements and willingness to see things from the standpoint of an independent AM operator having to withstand an intolerable inteference problem being unfairly imposed upon us by a corporate and regulatory elite.

And I agree - let's talk about HD Radio on this board, instead of endless parsing and dissecting of each other's statements.

 

[clouseau]

Inspector - if you "don't know what I'm talking about" you're choosing not to listen. The links you posted refer to material which has to be read in the context of the discussion at that point in the thread, such as (as an example) the history of various technologies, such as early-adopter TV and FM. Earlier posters had drawn a parallel between those innovations and HD and I was just participating, which I had supposed was SOP on discussion boards.

It just seems to me like if I'm not out there goose stepping to the "Say No" crowd then I'm calling people a neanderthal. I haven't "Annointed" anything. If you don't like the way some individuals are referring to you, I can relate. Within the last 24 hours I have been accused of being on a "Secret payroll" or "kissing up to my boss". Unlike someone's assertion that your views are dated, "My Ilk" are bribe receiving suck ups. Don't for a second think this is a one way street.

The passage you claim "makes no sense with regard to this thread" has to be read as a response to Lino's earlier disparagement which was directed at yours truly and WYSL, and which was not a technical argument (nor even a logical one.) Scroll up and read his post and you'll see what I mean. Hopefully.

Vaguely. There's not an abundance of civil discourse on any side of this issue here. That's why many of the previous posters have left.

Okay, Clouseau: so if reliable sales figures for HD receivers sold to date are indeed available, what's the total? (I refer to actual retail sales, not including the stacks of samples/demos in Clear Channel prize closets.)

I have no idea. I would suspect overall we're pushing 300,000 to 500,000., but I do not know.

The ensuing argument was a summary of the state of HD radio, which its proponents insist is doing fine despite considerable, and mounting, evidence to the contrary.

Look I don't weant to pick a fight, but where are you seeing it written that HD is "Doing Fine"? I have said previously that the speed of the adaptation is a little disappointing. A translation is "I wish it was faster, but it's still moving". The constant myopic drumbeat of death is just nuts. Licensing prices went WAY up recently and I see the total number of Current and Coming stations continues to increase. It ain't fast, but contrary to a new website, it ain't going down either.

The summary was a reponse to a previous barrage of emotional and nontechnical invective aimed at me personally because of my challenges regarding IBOC. I was trying to make the point that certain posters suggesting that I am personally in some form of denial regarding IBOC and AM radio ought to do their own "reality check."

It IS easy for either side to alledge this of the other. It doesn't make much sense, but it's happening. I suspect both of us have done it at one time or another. I admit it if you will...

And, Inspector, I thank you for your (mostly) measured and fair statements and willingness to see things from the standpoint of an independent AM operator having to withstand an intolerable inteference problem being unfairly imposed upon us by a corporate and regulatory elite.

And I agree - let's talk about HD Radio on this board, instead of endless parsing and dissecting of each other's statements.

Good advice for all.

Clouseau

 

[Board Editor]

MOVED: TIO: "Is HD Radio Toast?"

Some posts in this topic have been moved to Take It Outside.

[iurl=http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=84349.0]http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php?topic=84349.0[/iurl]

 

[awj223]

European MW and LW (they have two AM bands) bands are practically empty. Lots of open frequencies. Our AM broadcast band is (too) full...there's one of the suckers in just about every town with a stoplight and Post Office. DRM requires an extra frequency for the digital signal. In other words, if you're on 580, you'll have to have another assigned channel somewhere in the AM band for digital, since there is no "hybrid" mode for DRM. It simply can't work here ON THE AM BAND. Not without another frequency band (26mhz?) being assigned. Next idea?

The way to deal with this is to mandate dual mode devices (analog + DRM) AND impose a sunset date for analog, after which all stations switch to digital overnight. Hybrid devices, not hybrid transmitters. Anyone who just doesn't care enough to buy a DRM radio at that point is SOL, but at some point you just have to cut them loose and move on. If I knew my favorite station is switching to DRM after a certain date, I would be sure to have all of my non DRM receivers replaced by then.

 

[Dighton Rockhead]

The way to deal with this is to mandate dual mode devices (analog + DRM) AND impose a sunset date for analog, after which all stations switch to digital overnight. Hybrid devices, not hybrid transmitters. Anyone who just doesn't care enough to buy a DRM radio at that point is SOL, but at some point you just have to cut them loose and move on. If I knew my favorite station is switching to DRM after a certain date, I would be sure to have all of my non DRM receivers replaced by then.

There used to be a time not so long ago when I would have argued that such a solution would be too radical.

Now, however, it's become painfully obvious that your suggestion of "hybrid devices, not hybrid transmitters" is, IMHO, the only real soulution for AM, especially for folks like Mr. Savage.

Also, I would agree with your choice of DRM over the other alternatives, since in European testing, DRM has proven itself to be a most flexible and robust system for the bands below 30 Mhz.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

Having TWO frequencies for every AM is the only solution. A new band/location is needed for every AM to park its digital noisemaker. The standard AM frequency is tuned-in (say 1560 KHz) - the display says AM 1560 but looks on a 'lookup table' for the matching frequency on the new band, say 26.560 MHz and after the digital lock, it pulls in the WIDEband digital audio from the new band, but still uses the original analog for tuning-in the stations and bandscan.

 

[Radioman100]

Having TWO frequencies for every AM is the only solution. A new band/location is needed for every AM to park its digital noisemaker. The standard AM frequency is tuned-in (say 1560 KHz) - the display says AM 1560 but looks on a 'lookup table' for the matching frequency on the new band, say 26.560 MHz and after the digital lock, it pulls in the WIDEband digital audio from the new band, but still uses the original analog for tuning-in the stations and bandscan.

Not a bad idea, but you'd have the same small broadcasters whining now about HD whining about having to invest in the infrastructure to do this and whining about the FCC spectrum use fees that would almost certainly go with something like this.

 

[Tom Wells]

But they're not trashed by those who opt into the system.
And it doesn't require the listeners of those who opt in to listen to self-interference.

 

[Chuck]

Having TWO frequencies for every AM is the only solution. A new band/location is needed for every AM to park its digital noisemaker. The standard AM frequency is tuned-in (say 1560 KHz) - the display says AM 1560 but looks on a 'lookup table' for the matching frequency on the new band, say 26.560 MHz and after the digital lock, it pulls in the WIDEband digital audio from the new band, but still uses the original analog for tuning-in the stations and bandscan.

Not a bad idea, but you'd have the same small broadcasters whining now about HD whining about having to invest in the infrastructure to do this and whining about the FCC spectrum use fees that would almost certainly go with something like this.

Actually, putting a signal on 26 MHz would be dirt cheap unless it was unreasonably encumbered by high licensing fees. The technology for 26 MHz has been around for a long time. Remember Ham and CB radio? The term affordable comes to mind. If a broadcaster isn't willing to put some money into their facility, they deserve whatever fate they get.

Even with HD, it's not as much a question of the money to implement it, but rather a question of return on investment. Many small broadcasters feel they could spend their money better in other places. That's the real reason you don't see lots of small broadcasters jumping on the HD wagon.

 

[Savage]

And a cost of converting a typical AM DA-2 that in many cases exceeds the fair market value of the station, added to an OPEC-style licensing fee regimen imposed by iBiquity. This all makes the consideration of installing HD at most stations - I would guess more than 80% - an analysis that would take about three-to-five-minutes with your accountant.

Then there's the little problem: no radios out there, no demand for the system, few radios available with no reality-based prospect that any of this is likely to change.....