Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

[weav]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

Maybe radio isn't a good medium for you. These days one can load up an iPad (or cheap Chinese knock-off from Fry's) with 3000 oldies easily enough.

As far as what-most-people-want, see what KOIT plays, that's what most people want. We here are not like most people.

Unfortunately being properly entertained by radio is not a basic right, at least if you fall out side the top part of the bell curve.

 

[Phedeks]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

But there is a huge group of people out there- more than you think- who don't want to hear the same songs over and over and really do want 'eclectic' music- the question is how to target those people while at the same time attracting advertizers.

First of all, it's not as "huge" as you think. Secondly, the group itself is broken down into multiple smaller groups who each like a particular mix or genre of music. Thirdly, they have a deep deep deep aversion to advertising. So most of them subscribe to XM. The funny part to me is how dissatisfied some of them are with the playlists at XM. Those of us who study radio use habits have concluded that this is a group that will not be satisfied with any form of one-way radio. They will only be happy with a playlist they control. And it must be ad-free. Not much to build a business around. So that's why commercial OTA radio, regardless of ownership, has abandoned this concept.

You obviously work for the Clear Channel Machine, because you're ignoring the truth. Step away from all the computerized data and talk to some real humans for once. Radio is failing and people are customizing their own play lists due to wanting different music. So no matter how much you want to pretend everything is fine and dandy in radio world it's not.

 

[Phedeks]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

Not true. Most people like familiarity. They marry the same woman, live in the same place, drive the same car, eat the same food, and like the same music. Over and over.If not, why would you want to hear an unknown song by an unknown artist on the radio? It's a turn-off.

Daily life routines and listening to music are totaly two seperate issues. If people got tired of doing things with their husbands or wives, then what's the purpose of getting married in the first place. The divorce rate would be off the charts! We have a choice to what music we want to hear and the frequency of hearing it.

Who says WE have to hear "familiar" songs over and over, everyday or every week?? If radio does not play OUR favorite personal songs, then why listen?? Who's to dictate what songs ALL OF US must hear, based on the opinions of a few?? No wonder most people have negative comments about what's on radio and the LACK of favorites. A station's set list of 400 or 800 songs is not like by everyone, that is guaranteed! How about the other 2000 songs that were released in the day?? What about those songs....

It's all or none, in my book.

Bingo!

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

Who says WE have to hear "familiar" songs over and over, everyday or every week?? If radio does not play OUR favorite personal songs, then why listen?? Who's to dictate what songs ALL OF US must hear, based on the opinions of a few?? No wonder most people have negative comments about what's on radio and the LACK of favorites. A station's set list of 400 or 800 songs is not like by everyone, that is guaranteed! How about the other 2000 songs that were released in the day?? What about those songs....

When you speak about "a few" you are probably speaking of the folks who participate in research for a radio station.

Well, how about the "few" who participate in radio ratings? In Los Angeles, a city of about 11 million 12+, there are around 3,000 participants in the PPM. With the average percent of people using radio from 6 AM to Midnight being about 10, that means that 300 people with meters are determining the shares for the 87 stations in the LA metro and the dozens of additional stations that get into parts of the market.

At any given moment, the top couple of stations in LA are represented by perhaps a dozen to 15 meters.

Yet you cast aspersions at structured, well recruited station research that will have a hundred or more participants several times a year, or callout research that will have hundreds of monthly inteviews.

All of business depends on research that takes a representative sample of consumers to show what present time reality is. There is no economically viable way to use larger samples, and there is no reason to do so as the smaller samples can be proven, via replication, to accurately represent reality at an affordable cost.

There is a reason why the government only does a Census every 10 years... it is too hard and too costly. And when they do it, the results take a year to tabulate. To do a radio census in LA would likely cost more each month than the entire market's gross revenue in a year!

The reason that any particular playlist is the size it ends up being is that all the songs that are not strongly negative to significant groups of listeners have been included and all the songs that are broadly negative to many groups of listeners have been excluded. Songs that will cause proven tune-out, often verified by instantaneous monitoring of PPM meters via MediaMonitors, are excluded and those that hold audience are played.

Why would a station play songs that they know cause listeners to leave and go to other stations? Those "2000 songs" you mention are proven PPM audience killers for terrestrial radio.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

It's interesting to read this, because about a year ago I got a call from someone asking if I listened to radio. I said yes, and they asked what I like and dislike about various Bay Area radio stations. They asked what stations I listened to and gave me a list of things to say about each. They asked "what is your impression of KOIT" - "what is your impression of KFOG" - etc. Some of the questions dealt with repetition, IIRC

During the survey they asked me to listen to a clip of several songs and rate them. Every single song was one that I would put into the category of "I've heard that so many times I'm sick of it". But they wanted me to rate each song not on the particular song, but on the style of music - I.E. - how my tastes agreed with the music of David Bowie or the music of The Eagles.

What I took away from that phone call was that the questions brought up in this thread were never even part of the survey. Maybe it was pre-determined that those were not in the list of things they wanted to program (I suspect this was a pre-cursor to "The Band", based on the eventual format) but if all research is done like that I can see why things are the way they are.

Dave B.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

What I took away from that phone call was that the questions brought up in this thread were never even part of the survey. Maybe it was pre-determined that those were not in the list of things they wanted to program (I suspect this was a pre-cursor to "The Band", based on the eventual format) but if all research is done like that I can see why things are the way they are.

This sounds like either a format search (where areas of opportunity for a whole station, not individual songs, are tested) or a college class project.

A format search will deal with types of music. They will ask the appeal of the music type, then whether there is a station currently playing that type of music and, if yes, whether that station does a good job of it. Then they will ask some intent to listen questions if the person has indicated any interests or weaknesses.

If they find a format... and often up to a dozen variants will be tested... they may zero in on specifics, such as era, artist likes, etc., in a second project. The final one would be testing the music in a combination of meeting room and on-line by appointment tests where anywhere from 500 to 1500 songs might be tested with each person.

 

[nocomradio]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

In about three dozen other threads I've made this same point and will make it once more here:

It may be possible that radio station ovners and PD's are using research to set their formats, but I have some serious doubts as to the quality of the information they are getting delivered to them. In my market where its a 50+ group of rural dwelling, farm operating folks, I hear an awful lot of Britney Spears -like music (repeated ad nauseum) a fair amount of dance and hip-hop stuff and very little of what I here on the ground in my community can see isn't representative in the least of the local population demographic. In fact, our County high school (we have only one) had a graduating glass of around 100 or so. To say there aren't many young folks around these parts would be an understatement.

So just who in fact is making the determination of what everyone wants to hear? I'd guess its someone far away from my cornfield. Especially, given that we have only 2 Country stations in a farming area. Go figure.

I think its pretty clear who dictates what, and it certainly ain't the listeners.

 

[recto101]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

OK remember when KKSF flipped from NAC to Classic Rock in 2009 we complained that the reason NAC is dying because Commercial NAC's kept repeating the same songs like KEnny G over again. I hear of another reason was if Commercial radio went ecletic then they go out of business. Who had the correct answer here?

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

It may be possible that radio station ovners and PD's are using research to set their formats, but I have some serious doubts as to the quality of the information they are getting delivered to them.

In a market with a single High School with a graduating class of 100, there is likely not a population base capable of giving a station even $25 k a month in billings. Since a good music test costs in excess of $30 k, there is no way that any quality research is being done.

The way smaller market stations that do well "research" is based on sales... the same things that make clients' cash registers ring also show when the right programming for the market is being done.

Audience research is generally warranted where the market revenues are moved by ratings, and where performing well in the book is the key factor in generating sales.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

A format search will deal with types of music. They will ask the appeal of the music type, then whether there is a station currently playing that type of music and, if yes, whether that station does a good job of it. Then they will ask some intent to listen questions if the person has indicated any interests or weaknesses.

Now that you mention it, yes - they would play a song and ask me what radio station I would expect to hear that song on. I forgot about that.

Dave B.

 

[TheBigA]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

I think its pretty clear who dictates what, and it certainly ain't the listeners.

That falls into the category of a conspiracy theory. They have absolutely nothing to gain by "dictating" music choice. They don't benefit from the airplay of one song vs. another. It's all the same to them.

But people think if everyone doesn't agree with them, something is wrong. Just deal with the fact that more people prefer music you don't like. I know it's hard to accept. It's easier to come up with a conspiracy theory.

 

[Phedeks]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

I think its pretty clear who dictates what, and it certainly ain't the listeners.

That falls into the category of a conspiracy theory. They have absolutely nothing to gain by "dictating" music choice. They don't benefit from the airplay of one song vs. another. It's all the same to them.

But people think if everyone doesn't agree with them, something is wrong. Just deal with the fact that more people prefer music you don't like. I know it's hard to accept. It's easier to come up with a conspiracy theory.

LOL, really? So radio stations don't benefit from record companies paying them to play certain songs? I know for a fact this is done. You keep giving cliche corporate answers blaming the listeners as being conspiracy nuts or out of touch because they don't like what 13 year old girls like.

 

[TheBigA]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

LOL, really? So radio stations don't benefit from record companies paying them to play certain songs? I know for a fact this is done.

If everyone is doing it, then there's still no advantage between one song and another. They ALL have money. That levels the playing field. Once again, just because they aren't playing what you like doesn't mean they're getting money to do so. There is not enough payola in the world to make up for the loss of advertising dollars playing bad music would cause. The fact is that KOIT is #1 in San Francisco, and they didn't get that way by taking label money for playing crappy music. No one is "blaming the listeners." These radio stations know exactly who is listening, and what songs will attract the most profitable listeners. Apparently you aren't their target.

 

[TheBigA]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

You keep giving cliche corporate answers blaming the listeners as being conspiracy nuts or out of touch because they don't like what 13 year old girls like.

One other thing I should address is the impression that teens are promoting teen artists. I'm surprised every day the number of adults including grandparents, who are very passionate fans of artists like Taylor Swift and Scotty McCreery. Absolutely amazing to me as one who studies these things. Certainly doesn't reflect my taste. But that's who's pushing the music. Not necessarily 13 year old girls. When you actually see the numbers, see who attends the shows, track the buying trends, and read the listener email, it becomes apparent who is driving the music we hear on the radio.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

LOL, really? So radio stations don't benefit from record companies paying them to play certain songs?

No. With all the comments on the future of radio, there is one industry that is way worse off than radio: records.

The recording industry has been trying for several years to extract a performance royalty from radio, most of which will benefit the labels. You don't demand money, and then give it back.

I know for a fact this is done.

Then contact the FCC and the IRS with proof.

'betcha can't.

You keep giving cliche corporate answers blaming the listeners as being conspiracy nuts or out of touch because they don't like what 13 year old girls like.

To believe that stations play what they want as opposed to what their specific listening group wants is not logical. Nor is thinking that all stations play music that appeals to teens.

As has been mentioned, there will be many many stations you don't enjoy. There may be a few you like, unless your taste is so eclectic and niche that there are none. That's the way radio has always worked.

 

[nocomradio]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

This may sound "conspiracy theory" as well, but my gut feeling over the last 10 years or so that radio has really taken a dive into the depths of the poor quality gutter, is that the reason they play the same old hashed over stuff is because it is the cheapest in regards to paying royalties to the record label/artist guild, or what ever syndicate there is. Again, call me a conspiracy theorist. That is fine, I've been called worse.

What this all boils down to to me, a person disconnected from the business end of radio, (but not business, as it all works the same in regards to profit-making) is that there is a huge chasm between the listener, and the programming personnel. The latter still seem to be under the control of everything but the people they are supposed to be serving (the listeners who supposedly really pay the bills) and instead have decided to serve the buyers of the advertising time they sell like crack on the street corner. As a result, you have in a small way the same thing we see on a daily basis in our Nation's Capital: people who are saying one thing and doing entirely another.

 

[NoMoreLurking]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

No, it's a matter of programming to the people WHO WILL PARTICIPATE IN THE RATINGS.

Programmers' jobs depend on getting the numbers. No wonder they program to the people who participate in their research studies, because those are the people who would most likely carry a meter or participate in a diary study.

Programming to the masses? Maybe not. Programming to likely survey participants? There ya go.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

Programming to the masses? Maybe not. Programming to likely survey participants? There ya go.

And you just thought about this possibility?

It's been that way since radio audience surveys began around 1930.

Advertisers are confident in the accuracy of radio ratings, and even have an entity that handles accreditation of ratings services and methodologies.

Radio operators simply program to the desires of people who will participate in research, since there is no conclusive proof that those who don't participate have different media habits... and there is no practical ongoing way of finding out, anyway.

 

[davideduardo]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

This may sound "conspiracy theory" as well, but my gut feeling over the last 10 years or so that radio has really taken a dive into the depths of the poor quality gutter, is that the reason they play the same old hashed over stuff is because it is the cheapest in regards to paying royalties to the record label/artist guild, or what ever syndicate there is.

Terrestrial radio does not pay does not pay royalties to the labels and artists. Radio pays public performance fees to the societies that represent composers and authors (ASCAP and BMI principally) and those fees are based on a music station's revenues and market size, not on individual songs. There are no cheap or expensive songs, just blanket fees paid to use all music.

The latter still seem to be under the control of everything but the people they are supposed to be serving (the listeners who supposedly really pay the bills) and instead have decided to serve the buyers of the advertising time they sell like crack on the street corner.

The real way radio works is that stations sell advertising to pay expenses and, hopefully, make a profit. To sell advertising, they must deliver and audience that will hear the advertising. If there are more listeners, the ad rates increase. So the objective of a station is to figure out how to reach and please the highest number of listeners.

So, selling advertising is not in conflict with the interests of listeners. Pleasing listeners means pleasing advertisers.

 

[DaveBayArea]

Re: Is it possible for a Radio Station that doesn't play the same songs over & over?

The latter still seem to be under the control of everything but the people they are supposed to be serving (the listeners who supposedly really pay the bills) and instead have decided to serve the buyers of the advertising time they sell like crack on the street corner.

This is a common misconception about broadcasting in general. The listeners/viewers are not the customers. They don't pay the bills. They are the product, and are sold to the advertisers. Listener-supported radio is different, of course, but we're talking about commercial radio here.

Dave B.