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Is it time for an alternative?

It seems like alternative music is on an uptick as of late. Its all over the TV in commercials and has had some ratings increases in other markets. Its also crossing over to CHR and Hot AC more and more these days. 11 of the 49 currents at KMXP according to all access are straight ahead alternative tracks from bands like the Lumineers, Mumford and Sons, and Of Monsters and Men. Is it time for someone to try it again here in Phoenix maybe with a more current approach along with songs from the last decade.

I am thinking if I am KNRJ or even KMVA I would rather be a big fish in a small pond and own my format rather than compete against three or four other stations.
 
First off, alternative was in this market for almost twenty years and had more than a one share on a few stations. It only had a one share with a format the leaned 90's, had a morning show that didn't fit the audience and a station that shifted directions every 12-24 months. But thanks for being opened minded. I remember a time when this market could barely support one CHR and look now. Things change. My point being maybe with a different execution and a slight resurgence in the music it may work this time. Or even a Modern AC without any rhythmic tracks might have some success.
 
Classic question: "Alternative to what?" When I'm hearing that Lumineers song in movie trailers now, and Passion Pit and fun. are all over SNL, I think it's being extremely generous to still call it "alternative." It's as mainstream as you can get.

While I'd love to see "alternative" on a regular frequency, I'm more than happy to see consultant-free KWSS-LP play the best music on our airwaves.
 
Put the "new" KUKQ on the Fm dial ;-) Love that station!
 
azfmfan said:
I remember a time when this market could barely support one CHR and look now. Things change.

They do indeed. I remember a time when the market had one FM Spanish language station. Two country stations in the top 5 with a third trailing behind. Two smooth jazz stations. Maybe things will change again, and people (listeners, not radio geeks) will get tired of hearing Katy Perry every 15 minutes, but that's not the reality right now.
 
azfmfan said:
First off, alternative was in this market for almost twenty years and had more than a one share on a few stations. It only had a one share with a format the leaned 90's, had a morning show that didn't fit the audience and a station that shifted directions every 12-24 months. But thanks for being opened minded. I remember a time when this market could barely support one CHR and look now. Things change. My point being maybe with a different execution and a slight resurgence in the music it may work this time. Or even a Modern AC without any rhythmic tracks might have some success.

Alright, let's give your suggestion the serious consideration/discussion you desire:

The "Twenty years" of alternative consisted of a few mitigating circumstances. I suppose we'll start by lumping the old KUKQ into the conversation; it was a sruggling 'alternative' format with a very small, albeit very loyal, audience. More than fifteen years after it's downfall some of the long time listeners in the valley make it seem as though it was as popular as the old KZZP, but the ratings would suggest otherwise.

The Edge was, by far, the most successful alternative station in the market. When it signed on the air in 1993 replacing that classical station it made an impact. This impact was, at best, a 15th place station with perhaps a 1.5 share until mid 1995 when they began to air Howard Stern in the morning. Following the abrupt, but inevitable, death of KHOT 100.3 (the first experiment in the failed FM Hot-Talk genre) KEDJ took on the Stern show and the ratings shot up like a rocket... at least from 6a-10a or so... the overall numbers looked pretty decent because AM Drive now had the #1 morning show in the market with 20+ minutes of spots/hour. They could have shut the transmitter off after 11am and still had reasonable numbers given the high average am drive stats. So, the Edge had a great 6+ year run with Howard in the morning and this certainly helped the alternative audience in the valley.

KZON made the transition from a pseudo AAA to a more hybrid alternative in the late 90s and their ratings did well enough. It helps when you have a good stick and not the tinfoil and copper wire that KEDJ had. Once Stern went on in the morning on KZON in November 2001, the numbers certainly looked a bit healthier. Let's not forget that the Zone had been through a few morning shows and lineup changes over the previous three years since integrating that hybrid alternative format. One could hardly consider them a "true alternative" when they were playing Avril Lavigne, Nine Days and Vertical Horizon... very mainstream tracks. Even with Stern in the morning, their overall numbers after 11am weren't particularly fantastic, but they were still in the top 10 in the market most of the time overall. On a side note, CBS Totally killed any chance to really blossom an alternative station when they instituted the second incarnation of failed FM Hot-talk in the market with FREE-FM in January 2006.

The Edge, post Howard Stern, lived on but was relegated to a pretty bad stick on 103.9 and never really made any type of splash higher than a 1.5 ever again. Chuck and Vince were entertaining and maybe if more than 50% of the market could hear them, it would have been okay. Unfortunately, continuous format tweaks, shifting of air personalities and new directions made the station very unstable and by 2008-2009, the ratings were in the < 1.0 category and in a couple of surveys they didn't even show up. The buzz around alternative music had really dried up too as other formats took the mainstays of the format and played them on their respective stations. Mix 96.9 was now playing Linkin Park, Blink 182, MGMT and KUPD had Limp Bizkit, Korn and many other more 'active rock/alternative' leaning artists. Factor in the terrible programming decisions with regard to morning drive and you had a nightmare scenario... the station couldn't stay on the air.

So, nearly eleven of the twenty years that you talk about the success of alternative can directly be attributed to Howard Stern's presence on those stations. The first three years or so may have to do with the newness of the format---the honeymoon phase if you will. The last few years were the death cycle, where mismanagement, absorption of the format by other stations and a general decline in audience/interest means alternative doesn't really work here.

There may be an audience, but just like those that insist there's a dance audience in this market, I submit that it is negligible and not worth the investment one would have to make. Before you shoot the messenger, I liked the Zone and the Edge... no one was a more vocal critic than I when they brought in Free-FM and turned the Edge into... whatever the Hell it is now, but facts are facts.

If you could persuade Howard Stern to come back to terrestrial radio and then put his show on an alternative format for 5 hours a day... I think you have a legitimate shot, otherwise it's unlikely. What many people in this business need to realize is that times are a-changin' and media is going in a different direction. Radio stations need to be a lot smarter to retain an audience that is growing tired of the same garbage terrestrial radio offers. Real alternative stations used to offer that until big companies and bean counters came in and ruined that potential golden egg laying goose as well.
 
indieradioguy said:
Classic question: "Alternative to what?" When I'm hearing that Lumineers song in movie trailers now, and Passion Pit and fun. are all over SNL, I think it's being extremely generous to still call it "alternative." It's as mainstream as you can get.

While I'd love to see "alternative" on a regular frequency, I'm more than happy to see consultant-free KWSS-LP play the best music on our airwaves.
Fair enough. I would agree that the music is very mainstream, which is exactly why I brought up the question if we we ready for a station again. Its more mainstream than its been in a long time and we dont have an outlet exclusively for the music. I wonder if a modern ac like kzzp back in the mid 90's would work as well. I think artists like Fun, Grouplove, The Lumineers, Passion Pit, Gotye, Mumford and Sons, Young the Giant, Of Monsters and Men, would blend well with Katy Perry, The Fray, The Script, Pink, Jack Johnson and Matchbox 20.
 
KMGX said:
azfmfan said:
First off, alternative was in this market for almost twenty years and had more than a one share on a few stations. It only had a one share with a format the leaned 90's, had a morning show that didn't fit the audience and a station that shifted directions every 12-24 months. But thanks for being opened minded. I remember a time when this market could barely support one CHR and look now. Things change. My point being maybe with a different execution and a slight resurgence in the music it may work this time. Or even a Modern AC without any rhythmic tracks might have some success.

Alright, let's give your suggestion the serious consideration/discussion you desire:

The "Twenty years" of alternative consisted of a few mitigating circumstances. I suppose we'll start by lumping the old KUKQ into the conversation; it was a sruggling 'alternative' format with a very small, albeit very loyal, audience. More than fifteen years after it's downfall some of the long time listeners in the valley make it seem as though it was as popular as the old KZZP, but the ratings would suggest otherwise.

The Edge was, by far, the most successful alternative station in the market. When it signed on the air in 1993 replacing that classical station it made an impact. This impact was, at best, a 15th place station with perhaps a 1.5 share until mid 1995 when they began to air Howard Stern in the morning. Following the abrupt, but inevitable, death of KHOT 100.3 (the first experiment in the failed FM Hot-Talk genre) KEDJ took on the Stern show and the ratings shot up like a rocket... at least from 6a-10a or so... the overall numbers looked pretty decent because AM Drive now had the #1 morning show in the market with 20+ minutes of spots/hour. They could have shut the transmitter off after 11am and still had reasonable numbers given the high average am drive stats. So, the Edge had a great 6+ year run with Howard in the morning and this certainly helped the alternative audience in the valley.

KZON made the transition from a pseudo AAA to a more hybrid alternative in the late 90s and their ratings did well enough. It helps when you have a good stick and not the tinfoil and copper wire that KEDJ had. Once Stern went on in the morning on KZON in November 2001, the numbers certainly looked a bit healthier. Let's not forget that the Zone had been through a few morning shows and lineup changes over the previous three years since integrating that hybrid alternative format. One could hardly consider them a "true alternative" when they were playing Avril Lavigne, Nine Days and Vertical Horizon... very mainstream tracks. Even with Stern in the morning, their overall numbers after 11am weren't particularly fantastic, but they were still in the top 10 in the market most of the time overall. On a side note, CBS Totally killed any chance to really blossom an alternative station when they instituted the second incarnation of failed FM Hot-talk in the market with FREE-FM in January 2006.

The Edge, post Howard Stern, lived on but was relegated to a pretty bad stick on 103.9 and never really made any type of splash higher than a 1.5 ever again. Chuck and Vince were entertaining and maybe if more than 50% of the market could hear them, it would have been okay. Unfortunately, continuous format tweaks, shifting of air personalities and new directions made the station very unstable and by 2008-2009, the ratings were in the < 1.0 category and in a couple of surveys they didn't even show up. The buzz around alternative music had really dried up too as other formats took the mainstays of the format and played them on their respective stations. Mix 96.9 was now playing Linkin Park, Blink 182, MGMT and KUPD had Limp Bizkit, Korn and many other more 'active rock/alternative' leaning artists. Factor in the terrible programming decisions with regard to morning drive and you had a nightmare scenario... the station couldn't stay on the air.

So, nearly eleven of the twenty years that you talk about the success of alternative can directly be attributed to Howard Stern's presence on those stations. The first three years or so may have to do with the newness of the format---the honeymoon phase if you will. The last few years were the death cycle, where mismanagement, absorption of the format by other stations and a general decline in audience/interest means alternative doesn't really work here.

There may be an audience, but just like those that insist there's a dance audience in this market, I submit that it is negligible and not worth the investment one would have to make. Before you shoot the messenger, I liked the Zone and the Edge... no one was a more vocal critic than I when they brought in Free-FM and turned the Edge into... whatever the Hell it is now, but facts are facts.

If you could persuade Howard Stern to come back to terrestrial radio and then put his show on an alternative format for 5 hours a day... I think you have a legitimate shot, otherwise it's unlikely. What many people in this business need to realize is that times are a-changin' and media is going in a different direction. Radio stations need to be a lot smarter to retain an audience that is growing tired of the same garbage terrestrial radio offers. Real alternative stations used to offer that until big companies and bean counters came in and ruined that potential golden egg laying goose as well.

I would agree with most of what you posted and understood why 103.9 switched formats earlier this year. While Stern certainly helped out I still think our market would have supported one of those stations most of those years. It was a poorly executed station for the format and the music had not been that popular the last few years. But part of me wonders if it was poor timing to dump an alternative format as the music appears to be making a resurgence. Not sure if it will last or if an alternative would even work again but its hard to deny the music is out there being heard in movie trailers, TV commercials, etc.
 
azfmfan, you're seeing something happening way too far in advance so do expect some criticism... as most people are usually stuck in the past. You will look nutty with your observations - up until the point when your future predictions come true and everyone else starts talking about it -after- it already happened! ;)

I guess one could say I'm one of the nutty early noticers of this as well:

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=221787.0

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=221751.0



http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=206703.0

I still think it's too early for a new alternative. However, if music trend sounds continue to move in this direction, don't be surprised to see (more) stations and artists/producers begin to shift towards the pop/rock and more pure alternative sound.

...Then maybe Pitbull, Flo Rida, Nicki Minaj or Lil Wayne can rap on that, too.
 
KDM 7000 said:
azfmfan, you're seeing something happening way too far in advance so do expect some criticism... as most people are usually stuck in the past. You will look nutty with your observations - up until the point when your future predictions come true and everyone else starts talking about it -after- it already happened! ;)

I guess one could say I'm one of the nutty early noticers of this as well:

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=221787.0

http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=221751.0



http://radiodiscussions.com/smf/index.php?topic=206703.0

I still think it's too early for a new alternative. However, if music trend sounds continue to move in this direction, don't be surprised to see (more) stations and artists/producers begin to shift towards the pop/rock and more pure alternative sound.

...Then maybe Pitbull, Flo Rida, Nicki Minaj or Lil Wayne can rap on that, too.

I don't want artists capitalizing on a "flavor of the month" alternative sound. That's not at ALL what azfmfan is talking about. And you ALWAYS bring up Pop/rock. We are not talking about Pop rock! Pitbull, Flo Rida and the rest can keep excreting their interpretations of music and don't need help from an "alternative sound."

We want alternative (and enough with this "DERR alternative to what?" garbage. It's an industry term and you know that). Real new rock (not metal, or any of that KUPD vomit).
 
I think an important factor was not mentioned with the so called "Alternative" movement. For a brief period, CHR Stations like Power 92 and Y95 were even playing Green Day, Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Counting Crows, Gin Blossoms, RHCP, and so on. This was obviously after KUKQ signed off, so it seemed like they were competing with KEDJ to some degree. Eventually Y95 flipped and Power went back to Rhythmic, so the fad didn't live too long (I'm sure they were also following MTV). But I do agree that this type of exposure ruins Alternative, as it then becomes mainstream. The whole idea with the format is to offer something besides the norm. Things got really stupid when 103.9 The Party had an Extreme version of CHR, playing ICP, Limp Bizkit, and Kid Rock every hour (an obvious attack at The Edge) in addition to Madcow in the mornings. At that point, I was ashamed of what folks called Alternative. Even in KUKQs 2nd version (1995), it was too punk influenced for me. The early 90s is when the format was true, with a lean on British flavor.
 
Frequency Breakdown said:
And you ALWAYS bring up Pop/rock. We are not talking about Pop rock!

Agreed. KDM I'm afraid you may have never been exposed to real Alternative (with the exception of KWSS....I know you listen to them). The stuff on Mix 96.9 and even The Zone (early 2000s) is not a good example. Dave Matthews, Coldplay and Nickelback are straight up Adult Rock. The Edge should have never touched those. But the format became so loose, that it was attached to all sorts of styles over the years (remember Prodigy and Crystal Method were marketed as Alternative once?) I do understand the idea of Pop/Rock (Train, Neon Trees, The Script), but I would NOT compare it to Alternative. I miss stuff like Frank Black and the Pixies, The Cure, Smiths, DM, Front 242 and the likes. Nothing Pop about that 8)
 
You guys, especially F.B., are missing my point as usual.

Before alternative or rock makes a full successful come back, we will have to sit through the softer subtle alternative sound - In other words, a soft pop/rock style sound. Then we will start to evolve into harder rock sounds. People may not like to accept the fact that we have to sit through the watered down alternative rock sound before it evolves into the real thing, but no alternative rocker who wants to be successful today is going to jump straight on to a pure, full, in your face, heavy guitar alternative / rock sound.

Listen to what's going on right now. The people who are making the most success on the rock side of things are the people who are doing a very "subtle form" of alternative rock sounds (Example: Train, Neon Trees, Phillip Phillips, The Script, etc.). This is the same way the current electro-dance trend started and grew. First, it started with severely watered down electro-pop tracks then eventually grew harder (and everyone complained that that sound wasn't dance because it was too soft). I remember back when the dance community people also couldn't understand this concept of musical evolution and they started complaining because they expected dance to immediately come back with pure hard hitting beats and sounds in full swing. Now the alternative rockers are doing the same thing. A slight subtle hint of the rock sound from today's pop/rock artists and BAM! Everyone thinks it's time for everything to *instantly* go full rock or alternative mode and no one should mention "pop rock" again because it's not good enough.

Well........ like I said, before the full alternative/rock sound makes a full come back, we will have to sit through this pop/rock style phase because people are slow to except sudden drastic changes.

That's why I brought up the pop rock sound - because this sound will (or might) be the gateway towards the full alternative rock sound that everyone wants to see getting more radio recognition.

But then again, there is also a chance that this whole pop/rock movement that appears to be starting right now may all fizzle out and everyone who was hoping for an alternative rock come back gets disappointed in the end.






As far as the Pitbull, Flo Rida, Nicki Minaj, and Lil Wayne rapping on it, I was just being facetious. But if these people can jump on the dance sound when it got big, then I'm sure a few people currently on the electro-pop sound can also jump on the mainstream alternative rock sound if it becomes big.
 
DJ_Perry said:
If you knew the roots of Alternative, you would know it is not American guitars. It was Electronic based (New Wave) and mostly European.
This is correct..... Ive tried telling this to modern day modern rockers... they laugh at me,,,and tell me,, OH,, Euythmics wasnt rock,, well maybe not hard rock,, but they were definately new wave electronic rock..... 8)
 
Listen to Addicted to radio's new wave channel or radio free Akron to get that 80's new wave music feel if you were two young to remember...lol :eek: ;D
 
I remember back in 1995 Z/100 in new york city tried to do this alt pop hybrid playing smashing pumpkins along with madonna but there ratings went south. Fast forward eighteen years and things have changed. We shall see
 
Mid West Clubber said:
DJ_Perry said:
If you knew the roots of Alternative, you would know it is not American guitars. It was Electronic based (New Wave) and mostly European.
This is correct..... Ive tried telling this to modern day modern rockers... they laugh at me,,,and tell me,, OH,, Euythmics wasnt rock,, well maybe not hard rock,, but they were definately new wave electronic rock..... 8)

I think you may be confusing them with The Tourists, who pre-dated Eurythmics but (unlike the Eurythmics) were ignored on mainstream U.S. radio. Just like how Can and Tangerine Dream and Kraftwerk are still ignored by the "EDM" crowd.
 
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