Is it time yet?

[michael hagerty]

Unfortunately, I have no ratings data before fall, 1966...but the sense I've gotten is that KEWB pretty much ran out of gas, and Crowell-Collier out of real interest, by '64.

 

[mikecroaro]

As we approach the Holidays, I believe it is time for a thread to bring up either KFRC or John Mac Flanagan. Let the discussions begin!

John Mack - Yes, anytime....always interesting. 8)

KFRC - Bah! Time better spent discussing KYA! ;D

Mike

 

[DavidKaye]

But I'm under the impression that KEWB's best days were already behind it by 1965 - against KYA - even before KFRC joined the picture. I know that was true in LA of KFWB, which had been eclipsed by KRLA after 4 or 5 years of competition. Maybe Michael can verify with some ratings info from that era.

I wish I could have gone to that panel featuring both Chuck Blore and Bill Drake. I'm sure it was enlightening. As I have read over the years, Blore had worked out exactly what he wanted in a station format (which was quite unlike the seat-of-the-pants thing most PDs were doing in 1958), and by 1965 Bill Drake had taken it a step further and turned it into a science.

Some things that struck me both in my reading and in my listening to old airchecks of KEWB and KFWB was that Blore had pioneered some very important formatics: (1) Always end the jingles with the station signature sung to EXACTLY the same tune -- prior to that, signatures were crammed into pre-made beds. (2) Have a particular demographic in mind and play to it -- in Blore's case it was stay-at-home moms, believe it or not. (3) Always keep the sound exciting with jingles, speedy talk, and sounders. (4) Have the DJs form a music direction team (the weekly music meeting) so that there is varied input to music choices and yet the music picks are consistent across all dayparts.

Drake, of course, refined the format by (1) cutting the guts out of the jingles (3 seconds, not 15 seconds), (2) always intro the hour with the signature and ID and go immediately into uptempo music (never news). (3) Encourage the DJs to limit their bits to the minimum needed to make their point. (4) Do the bits over music intros so that the audio is always in music or in a spot or jingle -- no straight talk. (5) The last thing the DJ says before the vocal starts is the callsign. The first thing out of the record is the callsign.

Of course, as time went on and Drake eased out of the picture and the local PDs got more control, stations such as KFRC really came into their own, refining the formula to fit their own needs, and KFRC replaced KSFO as a must-listen.

 

[michael hagerty]

Drake, of course, refined the format by...

(5) The last thing the DJ says before the vocal starts is the callsign. The first thing out of the record is the callsign.

Of course, as time went on and Drake eased out of the picture and the local PDs got more control, stations such as KFRC really came into their own, refining the formula to fit their own needs, and KFRC replaced KSFO as a must-listen.

David...#5 was really a Buzz Bennett invention ay KCBQ and if you listen to airchecks of KHJ and KFRC prior to 1973, or maybe very late '72, you won't hear it. The jocks pretty much let the jingles and promos carry the call letters for them. KHJ did start doing it...but I'm not sure KFRC did...which makes me think it may have been Paul Drew (who was KHJ's PD before replacing Drake) instituting it there.

KFRC really began their post-Drake period while Drake was still at RKO...when Sebastian Stone was PD in '72-'73.

 

[LKellerIII]

Drake, of course, refined the format by...

(5) The last thing the DJ says before the vocal starts is the callsign. The first thing out of the record is the callsign.

Of course, as time went on and Drake eased out of the picture and the local PDs got more control, stations such as KFRC really came into their own, refining the formula to fit their own needs, and KFRC replaced KSFO as a must-listen.

David...#5 was really a Buzz Bennett invention ay KCBQ and if you listen to airchecks of KHJ and KFRC prior to 1973, or maybe very late '72, you won't hear it. The jocks pretty much let the jingles and promos carry the call letters for them. KHJ did start doing it...but I'm not sure KFRC did...which makes me think it may have been Paul Drew (who was KHJ's PD before replacing Drake) instituting it there.

KFRC really began their post-Drake period while Drake was still at RKO...when Sebastian Stone was PD in '72-'73.

Yes, that's true. I remember 'call-letters first' in Los Angeles about 1971 on the (then) all new FM top 40 stations - particularly KKDJ - the predecessor to KIIS-FM. It was a low budget station competing against heavy odds with KHJ and the other big AM stations which still owned the format. I think they managed to come up with enough money for one jingle...but jingles were out of favor to a certain extent in those years anyway. Even Drake cut them way back at KHJ and KFRC.

So KKDJ always came out of the song with "KKDJ 102.7 FM!" I assume it was their desperate effort to cram both their call letters and odd sounding dial position into your head.

I wish I could have gone to that panel featuring both Chuck Blore and Bill Drake. I'm sure it was enlightening. As I have read over the years, Blore had worked out exactly what he wanted in a station format (which was quite unlike the seat-of-the-pants thing most PDs were doing in 1958), and by 1965 Bill Drake had taken it a step further and turned it into a science.

Some things that struck me both in my reading and in my listening to old airchecks of KEWB and KFWB was that Blore had pioneered some very important formatics: (1) Always end the jingles with the station signature sung to EXACTLY the same tune -- prior to that, signatures were crammed into pre-made beds.

Yes. It's worth noting that the musical tune Blore created ("KFWB. Channel 98") survived Top 40. After dumping it for the first few years of All News, Westinghouse revived the tune and used it until just a few months ago when KFWB switched to a Talk format. There were a few revisions..."Channel 98" became "News 98," then "News 980." I don't know if they still use it - I'm guessing not. KNEW also revived the jingle in the early-mid 70s for their Oldies format.

So it lasted about 51 years - probably a record.

 

[DavidKaye]

David...#5 was really a Buzz Bennett invention ay KCBQ and if you listen to airchecks of KHJ and KFRC prior to 1973, or maybe very late '72, you won't hear it. The jocks pretty much let the jingles and promos carry the call letters for them. KHJ did start doing it...but I'm not sure KFRC did...which makes me think it may have been Paul Drew (who was KHJ's PD before replacing Drake) instituting it there.

KFRC really began their post-Drake period while Drake was still at RKO...when Sebastian Stone was PD in '72-'73.

Dang! I can't find my earlier airchecks, but I think you're right. I have a John Mack Flanagan from 1977 and sure enough, he doesn't always come out of a record or go into one with the callsign in patter. Often the liner starts or ends with the callsign, though. But not always. Funny how the mind plays tricks. It was so evident *somewhere*. Maybe I'm thinking of KSTN, which I also listened to a lot.

Man, how the 1977 aircheck dredges up memories, not only thinking of the discos I used to go to (Buzzby's, the Rendezvous, the End Up, etc) but also the costumes, the fun, and the sense of "being there" that KFRC had. Wish I could find my old KFRC airchecks. Maybe I copied them to CD or something.

KFRC sounded so unique and very much unlike KHJ in 1977. It had a rich sound (well, it didn't hurt that they had a superior channel and possibly audio chain compared with KHJ), but it just had a smoother and more intelligent sound.

<getting all misty-eyed now>

 

[DavidKaye]

So KKDJ always came out of the song with "KKDJ 102.7 FM!" I assume it was their desperate effort to cram both their call letters and odd sounding dial position into your head.

At one point the KFRC jingle sing was bastardized to "610 KFRC", which sounded pretty bad. But then again, until then none of the KFRC jingles actually had 610 on them because it just didn't fit musically the way "93 KHJ" or "The Big 8...CKLW" fit. Come to think of it, KSTN never had a jingle with "1420 KSTN" on it, at least that I can remember.

Still, even without a 610 or a 1420 in the jingle, people still managed to find KFRC and KSTN on their radios....

 

[LKellerIII]

So KKDJ always came out of the song with "KKDJ 102.7 FM!" I assume it was their desperate effort to cram both their call letters and odd sounding dial position into your head.

At one point the KFRC jingle sing was bastardized to "610 KFRC", which sounded pretty bad. But then again, until then none of the KFRC jingles actually had 610 on them because it just didn't fit musically the way "93 KHJ" or "The Big 8...CKLW" fit. Come to think of it, KSTN never had a jingle with "1420 KSTN" on it, at least that I can remember.

Still, even without a 610 or a 1420 in the jingle, people still managed to find KFRC and KSTN on their radios....

If I remember from childhood DXing, and traveling with my parents (mostly West Coast) - the only early Drake stations I heard that sang the dial position were the stations with 3 letter calls - 93/KHJ, 136/KGB, and 62/KGW. I recall that the stations with 2 syllable names (KA-FY, KE-NO, and K-Don) had jingles that sang "_____, Number One.". KING in Seattle was "K-I-N-G" no dial position and they never played off "King"...probably because it was just one syllable.

KFRC did have separate jingles that sang "The Big 610."

 

[rwagoner]

I liked the 610 KFRC jingles at the end of the station's real run (1986). I always remember KFRC as a top-40 station, not the crap oldies station it later became.

I don't recall KKDJ as any jingle but KKDJ. The jocks would sometimes say Stereo 102 point 7, or something like that. Wasn't pushed to sound weird.

 

[michael hagerty]

I liked the 610 KFRC jingles at the end of the station's real run (1986). I always remember KFRC as a top-40 station, not the crap oldies station it later became.

I don't recall KKDJ as any jingle but KKDJ. The jocks would sometimes say Stereo 102 point 7, or something like that. Wasn't pushed to sound weird.

Prior to Rick Carroll and the "KKDJ" shotgun jingle, there was a "One-Oh-Two Point Seven....K-K-D-J" midtempo jingle.

 

[LKellerIII]

I liked the 610 KFRC jingles at the end of the station's real run (1986). I always remember KFRC as a top-40 station, not the crap oldies station it later became.

I don't recall KKDJ as any jingle but KKDJ. The jocks would sometimes say Stereo 102 point 7, or something like that. Wasn't pushed to sound weird.

Another alternate call-letter-first slogan they'd push was "Double Kay-Dee-Jay!"

From about 94 to 2001 or so, 99.7/KFRC was a good Oldies station, in my opinion. The play list was reasonably big (especially compared to the 300 song KRTH of that era), they let DJs like Bobby Ocean talk a bit, and the talent was top notch ...with the exception of Cammy Blackstone. Some of their weekend jocks were especially good, like Tom Benner and Candy Chamberlin, who were allowed to do their own thing to a certain extent (in terms of talk and comedy, not the music).

 

[michael hagerty]

I liked the 610 KFRC jingles at the end of the station's real run (1986). I always remember KFRC as a top-40 station, not the crap oldies station it later became.

I don't recall KKDJ as any jingle but KKDJ. The jocks would sometimes say Stereo 102 point 7, or something like that. Wasn't pushed to sound weird.

Another alternate call-letter-first slogan they'd push was "Double Kay-Dee-Jay!"

Wow, Llew...I don't remember that...K-Double-I-S, yes...but not "Double-K-D-J". When was this?

 

[LKellerIII]

I liked the 610 KFRC jingles at the end of the station's real run (1986). I always remember KFRC as a top-40 station, not the crap oldies station it later became.

Another alternate call-letter-first slogan they'd push was "Double Kay-Dee-Jay!"

Wow, Llew...I don't remember that...K-Double-I-S, yes...but not "Double-K-D-J". When was this?

Not sure, Michael...my memory is not as year specific as yours. I'm guessing about '71 - '72. My girlfriend and I would drive out to her parents' house in Northridge (they had a pool), and her younger teenage brothers would always be blasting KKDJ in the patio. I remember that Jeff Salgo was the DJ I'd usually hear. I think it was before they went 'upscale' with better known talent like Russ O'Hara (not putting down Salgo - he was an unknown at the time...at least by me).

 

[michael hagerty]

I liked the 610 KFRC jingles at the end of the station's real run (1986). I always remember KFRC as a top-40 station, not the crap oldies station it later became.

Another alternate call-letter-first slogan they'd push was "Double Kay-Dee-Jay!"

Wow, Llew...I don't remember that...K-Double-I-S, yes...but not "Double-K-D-J". When was this?

Not sure, Michael...my memory is not as year specific as yours. I'm guessing about '71 - '72. My girlfriend and I would drive out to her parents' house in Northridge (they had a pool), and her younger teenage brothers would always be blasting KKDJ in the patio. I remember that Jeff Salgo was the DJ I'd usually hear. I think it was before they went 'upscale' with better known talent like Russ O'Hara (not putting down Salgo - he was an unknown at the time...at least by me).

Llew: That'd probably be about right....Rick Carroll didn't come in with the good stuff until spring/summer 1973.

 

[RadioStarOne]

KKDJ-102.7 "NEVER" Used a Double KKDJ anything! You guys must be getting old! (Sorry) The only time a K-Double I I S Jingle was used was after the KKDJ 102.7 and KIIS-1150-AM marrige stunt as the sale to Combined Communications was approved. (Darn, I still hate the day that sale was ever consumated, it ruined a great radio station!) Take that to the bank or take the time to e-mail Charlie Tuna he'll tell the tale! He was there the night they gave away the KKDJ call letters. If anyone at 102.7 did a Double K-D-J jingle or soft shotgun prior to Rick's arrivial I don't know as I wasn't in the southland at that time, but I was there right after Rick took over programming the station and was hooked the moment I heard it for the first time.

Prior to Rick Carroll's run at KKDJ he was right here in Sacramento at KNDE 1470 using the same Mason Proffitt "Voice of Change" Jingle at the TOH station ID, along with DJ's Jon Peters, & T. Michael Jordan. Jon Peters did a somewhat good impression of Wolfman Jack while at KNDE and IMHO was one of Sacramento's best DJ's ever and only got better while at KKDJ and KEZY! So is he still doing anything in radio now?

 

[michael hagerty]

KKDJ-102.7 "NEVER" Used a Double KKDJ anything! You guys must be getting old! (Sorry) The only time a K-Double I I S Jingle was used was after the KKDJ 102.7 and KIIS-1150-AM marrige stunt as the sale to Combined Communications was approved. (Darn, I still hate the day that sale was ever consumated, it ruined a great radio station!) Take that to the bank or take the time to e-mail Charlie Tuna he'll tell the tale! He was there the night they gave away the KKDJ call letters. If anyone at 102.7 did a Double K-D-J jingle or soft shotgun prior to Rick's arrivial I don't know as I wasn't in the southland at that time, but I was there right after Rick took over programming the station and was hooked the moment I heard it for the first time.

RadioStarOne:

Llew says in his post that it was in '71 or '72...before Rick Carroll's (and your) arrival.

Also my impression was that Llew wasn't talking about a jingle but about the jocks saying "Double K D J".

I don't remember it either, but I didn't listen to KKDJ much until Rick got there.

 

[LKellerIII]

KKDJ-102.7 "NEVER" Used a Double KKDJ anything! You guys must be getting old! (Sorry) The only time a K-Double I I S Jingle was used was after the KKDJ 102.7 and KIIS-1150-AM marrige stunt as the sale to Combined Communications was approved. (Darn, I still hate the day that sale was ever consumated, it ruined a great radio station!) Take that to the bank or take the time to e-mail Charlie Tuna he'll tell the tale! He was there the night they gave away the KKDJ call letters. If anyone at 102.7 did a Double K-D-J jingle or soft shotgun prior to Rick's arrivial I don't know as I wasn't in the southland at that time, but I was there right after Rick took over programming the station and was hooked the moment I heard it for the first time.

RadioStarOne:

Llew says in his post that it was in '71 or '72...before Rick Carroll's (and your) arrival.

Also my impression was that Llew wasn't talking about a jingle but about the jocks saying "Double K D J".

I don't remember it either, but I didn't listen to KKDJ much until Rick got there.

Yes, I was saying that one of the alternatives for the jocks was to say (coming out of the song) "Double K-D-J." I do recall this, and it was early on...probably before Rick Carroll, as Michael states.

I think I also remember the KIIS-AM jocks sometimes saying "K- double I-S" prior to the "marriage" with the FM, though the jingle came after the nuptials.

I can also confirm that my memory is not perfect, though I don't normally see double. ;D