Is OTA Digital TV as "bad" as it seems

Markxxx · Oct 11, 2005

I was reading posts in the avsforums and on usenet and there seems to be a LOT and I mean a lot of issues with TV stations and getting the DTV signals over the air.

From PSIP not working, to signals fading in and out to multicasting issues to the "stretch screen" some stations use and others don't

It seems that if DTV is going to go over we need a rather simple plug in, point the antenna and it works

BUT...

On the other hand I reckon we don't see the posts of the users who's OTA DTV works just fine.

I'd like to get some opinions, do you think digital OTA signals are that bad and difficult to receive? Or am I just reading the complaints?______________
Once I figured out the meaning of life....Then I forgot to write it down.

RockManAC · Oct 11, 2005

> I was reading posts in the avsforums and on usenet and there
> seems to be a LOT and I mean a lot of issues with TV
> stations and getting the DTV signals over the air.
>
> From PSIP not working, to signals fading in and out to
> multicasting issues to the "stretch screen" some stations
> use and others don't
>
> It seems that if DTV is going to go over we need a rather
> simple plug in, point the antenna and it works
>
> BUT...
>
> On the other hand I reckon we don't see the posts of the
> users who's OTA DTV works just fine.
>
> I'd like to get some opinions, do you think digital OTA
> signals are that bad and difficult to receive? Or am I just
> reading the complaints?
>

If you're watching certain things it looks good, damn good (like Sports for example). I love how PBS HD looks, too. However, I can't see the difference between watching CSI, Leno, Law & Order, Conan, Joey, and such shows as that in HD and watching them on a "normal" television. I just don't see the difference (and yes, I'm watching on very high quality equiptment)

I should also point out that there are stations that I can get on an analog set with an INDOOR antenna that I can't get with on a digital set an OUTDOOR antenna.

-A______________

Edited by RockManAC on 10/11/05 11:01 PM.

Mark_Ericson · Oct 11, 2005

A Satisfied User

> > I was reading posts in the avsforums and on usenet and
> there
> > seems to be a LOT and I mean a lot of issues with TV
> > stations and getting the DTV signals over the air.
> >
> > From PSIP not working, to signals fading in and out to
> > multicasting issues to the "stretch screen" some stations
> > use and others don't
> >
> > It seems that if DTV is going to go over we need a rather
> > simple plug in, point the antenna and it works
> >
> > BUT...
> >
> > On the other hand I reckon we don't see the posts of the
> > users who's OTA DTV works just fine.
> >
> > I'd like to get some opinions, do you think digital OTA
> > signals are that bad and difficult to receive? Or am I
> just
> > reading the complaints?
> >
>
> If you're watching certain things it looks good, damn good
> (like Sports for example). I love how PBS HD looks, too.
> However, I can't see the difference between watching CSI,
> Leno, Law & Order, Conan, Joey, and such shows as that in HD
> and watching them on a "normal" television. I just don't
> see the difference (and yes, I'm watching on very high
> quality equiptment)
>
> I should also point out that there are stations that I can
> get on an analog set with an INDOOR antenna that I can't get
> with on a digital set an OUTDOOR antenna.

I'm extremely satisfied with digital television myself, being in a good area and knowing exactly why certain stations don't work right.

WDBJ-DT 18
[7-1] CBS-HD
[7-2] 7 Too (Independent)
[7-3] Hometown Weather Channel

WDBJ is flawless. I have never had a problem that wasn't addressed within a day of making a complaint. They've gotten to a point now where I never have to say anything. The CBS looks terrific, and unlike RockManAC, I do see an amazing difference between analog and HD digital.

WSLS-DT 30
[10-1] NBC-HD
[10-2] Vipir Radar

WSLS is pretty good too. Full-powered signal and the HD looks very good... normally. The last two times I've tried to watch SNL it hasn't been working. I don't like the Vipir radar channel though. It's never on a usable map when I need it.

WSET-DT 34
[13-1] ABC-HD
[13-2] ABC-SD

WSET is also very good. I've never had problems with them, and their HD also looks very good, though not as sharp as the 1080i on WSLS and WDBJ (though less prone to artifacts from high-motion and compression)

WBRA-DT 3
[15-1] PBS
[15-2] PBS You
[15-5] PBS-HD

Ugh ugh UGH! I hate this station. They broadcast on channel 3 so the signal is totally useless over 90% of the time I want to watch it. Plus they compress the HD way down so it's pretty bad at times. I don't know what I'm going to do about PBS after the analog shutoff, since they don't have the money to move off this horrid, horrid channel.

WJPR-DT 20/WFXR-DT 17
[21-1/27-1] Fox-HD
[21-2/27-2] WB-SD

Ah, the whole reason I got into digital in the first place, for digital-only WBVA. The Fox-HD looks AWESOME, but it's like ABC's in 720p. Sadly there's not enough bandwidth for HD WB, but hey, at least there's WB! My biggest problem will go away after the transition, and that's interference from WTWB-20 and WNCN-17 (which won't go away afterwards, ugh) damaging these stations.

WPXR-DT 36
[38-1] PAX (E)
[38-2] PAX (W)
[38-3] Worship.Net
[38-4] FaithNet

Eh, it's Pax. It was my second-strongest signal for a while, too. Nothing good on, nothing in HD.

WDRL-DT 41
[24-1] UPN-SD

I've been told to "watch for it this fall" from their new tower site, and in HD. When it happens, it should be pretty good as it will be my nearest TV station.

None of these suffer from multipath and only WBRA has any major issues. None of my stations do that idiotic stretching. Then again, I think I live in a pretty good market.

- Trip______________
Visit my website, www.rabbitears.info! It's eventually going to be your one resource for television info! Digital television, histories, and technical information for the entire USA from one source!

alg2468 · Oct 11, 2005

Re: A Satisfied User

I installed the Accurion HTS-6000 HDTV receiver with my Zenith 27" analog TV and it was a great improvement in receiving OTA stations. Here in the Providence, RI area I can now receive Providence area channels 6 (ABC), 10(NBC), 12(CBS), 28(UPN/WB), 36(PBS), 64(FOX), AND 69 (PAX), as well as Boston area channels (about 40 miles northeast) - 2 (PBS), 4 (CBS), 5 (ABC), 7 (NBC), 25 (FOX), 38 (UPN), 44 (PBS), 46 (Shopnbc), 56 (WB), 68 (PAX); and Worcester, MA area channels 27 (UNI), 66 (FUT). All of these stations are crystal clear, with few dropouts of signal, which are adjusted by rotating my outdoor antenna connected in my attic. I'm really impressed with High Definition, because with an analog set it causes a major improvement in reception.

> > > I was reading posts in the avsforums and on usenet and
> > there
> > > seems to be a LOT and I mean a lot of issues with TV
> > > stations and getting the DTV signals over the air.
> > >
> > > From PSIP not working, to signals fading in and out to
> > > multicasting issues to the "stretch screen" some
> stations
> > > use and others don't
> > >
> > > It seems that if DTV is going to go over we need a
> rather
> > > simple plug in, point the antenna and it works
> > >
> > > BUT...
> > >
> > > On the other hand I reckon we don't see the posts of the
>
> > > users who's OTA DTV works just fine.
> > >
> > > I'd like to get some opinions, do you think digital OTA
> > > signals are that bad and difficult to receive? Or am I
> > just
> > > reading the complaints?
> > >
> >
> > If you're watching certain things it looks good, damn good
>
> > (like Sports for example). I love how PBS HD looks, too.
>
> > However, I can't see the difference between watching CSI,
> > Leno, Law & Order, Conan, Joey, and such shows as that in
> HD
> > and watching them on a "normal" television. I just don't
> > see the difference (and yes, I'm watching on very high
> > quality equiptment)
> >
> > I should also point out that there are stations that I can
>
> > get on an analog set with an INDOOR antenna that I can't
> get
> > with on a digital set an OUTDOOR antenna.
>
> I'm extremely satisfied with digital television myself,
> being in a good area and knowing exactly why certain
> stations don't work right.
>
> WDBJ-DT 18
> [7-1] CBS-HD
> [7-2] 7 Too (Independent)
> [7-3] Hometown Weather Channel
>
> WDBJ is flawless. I have never had a problem that wasn't
> addressed within a day of making a complaint. They've
> gotten to a point now where I never have to say anything.
> The CBS looks terrific, and unlike RockManAC, I do see an
> amazing difference between analog and HD digital.
>
> WSLS-DT 30
> [10-1] NBC-HD
> [10-2] Vipir Radar
>
> WSLS is pretty good too. Full-powered signal and the HD
> looks very good... normally. The last two times I've tried
> to watch SNL it hasn't been working. I don't like the Vipir
> radar channel though. It's never on a usable map when I
> need it.
>
> WSET-DT 34
> [13-1] ABC-HD
> [13-2] ABC-SD
>
> WSET is also very good. I've never had problems with them,
> and their HD also looks very good, though not as sharp as
> the 1080i on WSLS and WDBJ (though less prone to artifacts
> from high-motion and compression)
>
> WBRA-DT 3
> [15-1] PBS
> [15-2] PBS You
> [15-5] PBS-HD
>
> Ugh ugh UGH! I hate this station. They broadcast on
> channel 3 so the signal is totally useless over 90% of the
> time I want to watch it. Plus they compress the HD way down
> so it's pretty bad at times. I don't know what I'm going to
> do about PBS after the analog shutoff, since they don't have
> the money to move off this horrid, horrid channel.
>
> WJPR-DT 20/WFXR-DT 17
> [21-1/27-1] Fox-HD
> [21-2/27-2] WB-SD
>
> Ah, the whole reason I got into digital in the first place,
> for digital-only WBVA. The Fox-HD looks AWESOME, but it's
> like ABC's in 720p. Sadly there's not enough bandwidth for
> HD WB, but hey, at least there's WB! My biggest problem
> will go away after the transition, and that's interference
> from WTWB-20 and WNCN-17 (which won't go away afterwards,
> ugh) damaging these stations.
>
> WPXR-DT 36
> [38-1] PAX (E)
> [38-2] PAX (W)
> [38-3] Worship.Net
> [38-4] FaithNet
>
> Eh, it's Pax. It was my second-strongest signal for a
> while, too. Nothing good on, nothing in HD.
>
> WDRL-DT 41
> [24-1] UPN-SD
>
> I've been told to "watch for it this fall" from their new
> tower site, and in HD. When it happens, it should be pretty
> good as it will be my nearest TV station.
>
> None of these suffer from multipath and only WBRA has any
> major issues. None of my stations do that idiotic
> stretching. Then again, I think I live in a pretty good
> market.
>
> - Trip
>

MCarney · Oct 12, 2005

It's as good as the signal being put out. For example, in the Boston market both WGBX 44 (secondary PBS) and WBPX 68 (Pax) have 4 substation standard definition multicasts on their digital stations. The WGBX multicast comes in with a good picture, no artifacts, good audio. The WBPX signal is fuzzy, has lots of artifacts and breaks up frequently. The signal may be digital but the output is lousy.

Slinky · Oct 12, 2005

> I'd like to get some opinions, do you think digital OTA
> signals are that bad and difficult to receive? Or am I just
> reading the complaints?

I bought the Radio Shack receiver when it was on sale and was pretty impressed with digital TV.

I live on the 3rd floor of a 16 floor apartment building and thought it would be an interesting experiment. It's an old brick apartment building with heavy metal windows, so I didn't expect a lot. I'm only 5-8 miles from the transmitters, but there are a ton of multipath issues due to tall buildings in the area, and signals don't penetrate well.

Surprisingly, just by repositioning my antenna, I was able to receive a majority of the Washington DC channels. WRC, WJLA, WUSA, and WBDC were consistent. WETA, WFDC, and WTTG had some hiccups but came in about 80% of the time. WDCA was non-existent.

The picture was perfectly clear, much better than my existing cable hookup, even on a normal non-HD display. However, I eventually returned the DTV box because the monentary signal losses on WTTG were really bugging me, and I didn't feel that it was a satisfactory replacement for cable. It was still a vast improvement over over-the-air analog TV though. I've never gotten anything close to a clear picture on ANY stations with analog.

I'll note that this was all done with a low-end RCA amplified indoor antenna. I may have had better luck with a Silver Sensor or other highly directional indoor antenna.

Markxxx · Oct 12, 2005

Re: A Satisfied User

Thanks guys..

I am not even refering to HD,just plain old Digital TV.

Seems to me if the FCC wants to make DTV a reality, it needs to be somewhat simplified.

I mean with a analog set now, you basically plug it in and put on the rabbit ears and you get SOME kind of picture.

Now with DTV, I hear the antenna is an issue, the tuner is an issue, the mapping of virtual channels is an issue, multipath is an issue to name a few. Then I hear how some stations "stretch" their 4:3 ration or vice versa.

Like for me, I have seen HDTV in the Sony store and it IS very good. But it certainly doesn't make the programming any better. Does seeing Charlie Sheen's face clearly as if I was next to him, make him any more funny?

I guess the question I am leaning toward IS the nation even technically ready to put out Digital (not necessarily HDTV) TV to the masses? Or are the bugs still to great? Or as I said before, are the complaints I read just a vocal minority?______________
Once I figured out the meaning of life....Then I forgot to write it down.

Nertz · Oct 12, 2005

I am about maybe about 5 to 10 miles from the Roxborough transmitter farm, but I do have ocassional trouble with WTXF-DT. I am only using a pair of rabbit ears.
I can't get WNJS-DT which is maybe about 25 or 30 miles away.
WPPX-DT (PAX/i) looks like crap on their main DT signal, but the subchannels look much better.
WYBE-DT looks really bad, like its a bad transmission or something, but it is a cheap station.

BoardmanDJ · Oct 14, 2005

Early Adopters Are Very Vocal

When executed properly, Digtal Television signals are superb. This is a new game for many engineers. In some cases engineers have toruble with new technology. While not standard ol' computers, there is computer like operations needed in some cases. (I'm only familiar with local examples).

Station egnineers have to keep their regular analog station up and going, which is often dicated by corporate. One engineer for several locations. Suddenly they have to help plan and install digital operations.
It's new to everybody, and technology does exactly what you tell it to.
If PSIP data is incorrect, the OTA box can go berzerk. It's not like an analog TV which you can fine tune.

Add to this equation the early adopters who HAD to have their new HDTV the first month it came out, before stations were even on the air. Suddenly they want digital TV, and they aren't afraid to post on the AVS forum.
One second late on a full power FCC mandate, and you're getting heat. Then it trickles down to the fringe. "Why isn't this station out of our range not at full power yet?". Just because they got it clearly on a humid night in August, they think they should get it all the time.
There are some legitimate complaints, but these require some patience. Give the staff and engineer time to figure out how the new gadgets work. Things need rebooted. It's a fact of life.

In my opinion, many problems could be solved by a call to the station rather than a rampage on a message board.

In due time, things will be less rough.

> I was reading posts in the avsforums and on usenet and there
> seems to be a LOT and I mean a lot of issues with TV
> stations and getting the DTV signals over the air.
>
> From PSIP not working, to signals fading in and out to
> multicasting issues to the "stretch screen" some stations
> use and others don't
>
> It seems that if DTV is going to go over we need a rather
> simple plug in, point the antenna and it works
>
> BUT...
>
> On the other hand I reckon we don't see the posts of the
> users who's OTA DTV works just fine.
>
> I'd like to get some opinions, do you think digital OTA
> signals are that bad and difficult to receive? Or am I just
> reading the complaints?
>

Is OTA Digital TV as "bad" as it seems

Markxxx

RockManAC

Mark_Ericson

Guest

alg2468

MCarney

Slinky

Markxxx

Nertz

Guest

BoardmanDJ

Guest