From Radio-Info News: Cox Blows Up Atlanta FM to Simulcast WSB. WSB isn't some 5kw AM directional, it's a 50 gallon drum full of jet fuel in a major market. WBEN isn't a kilowatt graveyarder. But could Entercom be looking at the Lake thinking, "We gave it a good try and plenty of time, let's simulcast WBEN on 107.7 before WBFO and/or WHLD and WHTT make a bigger dent. Always better to make changes before the crisis occurs rather than play catch-up."
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Is The Lake Next?
- Thread starter Element9
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Bob1370
Guest
WBEN would do better to use the full capacity of that Nautel 10 kW rig they use for a main transmitter. They could probably get a CP to go 10 kW DA-N with a similar pattern to their current one and get more solid pre-sunrise and post-sunset coverage into Genesee, Orleans and Monroe counties. It'd do them more good.
Savage said:
It might do a better job for WGR.
Bob1370 said:
Just for the record WBEN has a Harris DX10 as the main transmitter (I was on the engineering staff that installed it in 1997), not a Nautel (unless it's been replaced in last 2 years which I highly doubt).
10kw instead of 5kw would increase the strength of WBEN's existing field far more than it would significantly expand landmass coverage. And even doubling carrier power wouldn't help correct any existing coverage deficits due to pattern. The nulls are the nulls. If you increase power, the nulls will simply have to be deeper.
Wherever the monitor points are, those values won't change. WBEN would just have to increase the power in the non-reference tower; sometimes in older DAs this produces undesirable effects. It's kinda a "watch out what you wish for" scenario.
Wherever the monitor points are, those values won't change. WBEN would just have to increase the power in the non-reference tower; sometimes in older DAs this produces undesirable effects. It's kinda a "watch out what you wish for" scenario.
I think that the point would be to reach an audience that doesn't recognize the existence of AM radio. That audience sure ain't gonna be tuning in to the B&B Boys and Rush. I agree with the thought that it could really help the reach of WGR - especially at night.
When does the Bills contract with Citadel end? I've heard that the Bills want to be on FM, and WGR sure needs something besides the Sabres to prop up their sorry programming. Entercom might be able to really take a shot at the Bills if they had an AM/FM combo concentrating on sports - and 107.7 would sure help fill in those annoying nighttime nulls in the 550AM pattern.
When does the Bills contract with Citadel end? I've heard that the Bills want to be on FM, and WGR sure needs something besides the Sabres to prop up their sorry programming. Entercom might be able to really take a shot at the Bills if they had an AM/FM combo concentrating on sports - and 107.7 would sure help fill in those annoying nighttime nulls in the 550AM pattern.
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Bob1370
Guest
"10kw instead of 5kw would increase the strength of WBEN's existing field far more than it would significantly expand landmass coverage. And even doubling carrier power wouldn't help correct any existing coverage deficits due to pattern. The nulls are the nulls. If you increase power, the nulls will simply have to be deeper."
All true, although in theory WBEN would cast enough of a footprint to the east to deliver a decent signal 24/7 to Rochester IF it could overcome cochannel interference from WPAT in Jersey and various other cochannel hash. An extra 5 kW into the antenna could help a lot in that regard, make it more listenable.
As to the nighttime null...it pulls in the signal over Lake Erie, into Dunkirk, and toward Oklahoma City, so 'BEN even on night pattern isn't missing much of its primary Erie/Niagara/Genesee/Orleans county area, or the Niagara Peninsula. It's arguably as good in terms of market coverage as KB and better after dark than GR and NED...bumping to 10 kW might improve it a little more in its main lobe areas, probably enough to make the paperwork worthwhile.
All true, although in theory WBEN would cast enough of a footprint to the east to deliver a decent signal 24/7 to Rochester IF it could overcome cochannel interference from WPAT in Jersey and various other cochannel hash. An extra 5 kW into the antenna could help a lot in that regard, make it more listenable.
As to the nighttime null...it pulls in the signal over Lake Erie, into Dunkirk, and toward Oklahoma City, so 'BEN even on night pattern isn't missing much of its primary Erie/Niagara/Genesee/Orleans county area, or the Niagara Peninsula. It's arguably as good in terms of market coverage as KB and better after dark than GR and NED...bumping to 10 kW might improve it a little more in its main lobe areas, probably enough to make the paperwork worthwhile.
Well, a nighttime study would have to be done. I don't know what the skywave issues might be. But I think you'd be surprised how little practical difference doubling power would make, especially on today's interference-choked AM band. We initially planned to upgrade 1040 to 10kw back in 2003, but then we decided to go for everything we could get with the existing array - no new land or towers, and so 20kw emerged as the plan. But 10 more kw only moved the daytime 5 mv/m out about 10 miles.
Just for laughs we also toyed with going to 50kw daytime, which would have required 2 more towers for a 6-tower array. It would have moved the 5 mv about another 12 miles further into Lake Ontario, doubling the electric bill and costing another $500k vs. the 20kw plan. Since 20kw 4 towers produces 5 mv at the Lake Ontario shore, we left it at that.
I think most listeners would notice little difference were WBEN to go to 10kw. But if they could get FIFTY....
(WTEM in DC went 50kw on 980.....hmmm.)
Just for laughs we also toyed with going to 50kw daytime, which would have required 2 more towers for a 6-tower array. It would have moved the 5 mv about another 12 miles further into Lake Ontario, doubling the electric bill and costing another $500k vs. the 20kw plan. Since 20kw 4 towers produces 5 mv at the Lake Ontario shore, we left it at that.
I think most listeners would notice little difference were WBEN to go to 10kw. But if they could get FIFTY....
(WTEM in DC went 50kw on 980.....hmmm.)
Savage said:
I know there must be an obvious answer for this but I'll ask the silly question anyway to Mr. Savage's "FIFTY" bait anyway, why not switch WBEN and KB then? KB is doing nothing now, at least it would serve a purpose. Or simulcast WBEN on KB. Again, at least the frequency would be used. Go ahead, fire away!
John C said:I know there must be an obvious answer for this but I'll ask the silly question anyway to Mr. Savage's "FIFTY" bait anyway, why not switch WBEN and KB then? KB is doing nothing now, at least it would serve a purpose. Or simulcast WBEN on KB. Again, at least the frequency would be used. Go ahead, fire away!
5 kW on 930 isn't much different from 50 kW on 1520 in terms of effective coverage. Given the choice of facilities, I think I'd take 930 any day of the week.
And assuming WWKB makes "x" in annual revenues (on expenses that are already nil, or close to it), and assuming WBEN currently makes "y" (a much larger number) in annual revenues, then a WBEN/WWKB simulcast would have to produce a revenue number that's larger than "x+y" to make any sense. I don't think any advertiser is going to pay more to be heard on 1520 if they're already on 930.
The Bills contract is up in 2012. Citadel re-negotiated it in 2009 but still is getting killed trying to sell this albatross to advertisers. Their GM is threatening their employees that if they don't push it to their advertisers, they'll give it up.
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Bob1370
Guest
"The Bills contract is up in 2012. Citadel re-negotiated it in 2009 but still is getting killed trying to sell this albatross to advertisers. Their GM is threatening their employees that if they don't push it to their advertisers, they'll give it up."
The problem here isn't the contract, or the sales effort--it's the team. The Bills have been so dull and unsuccessful on the field for so long, it's going to take a miracle (in the form of a 10-6 finish and wild card playoff berth) to make carrying the team a paying proposition. This is one problem that isn't of Citadel's making, but originates squarely at One Bills Drive.
The obvious solution is to improve the team--but one wonders if anything short of new ownership will make that happen. (Don't worry about the team moving, there is no other market in North America that has both a suitable playing facility and a sufficiently large potential fan base to be profitable, other than markets that already have the NFL. LA is a decade away from being able to build a public/private partnership to build a stadium, and Toronto is lacking both a 70,000 seat facility and a fan base interested enough to even remotely approach the support Western NY gives to even a blah product. Unless the NFL can be convinced to slot a third team in the greater New York area on a field within the five boroughs of New York Cityitself, there's no market lacking an NFL team that could support one as well as Buffalo does now, and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Hence there's nowhere for the Bills to go, that'd be as good as where they now are.)
The team may either have to give away the rights for a simple percentage of commercial revenue sold (no up-front rights fee), or do what the St. Louis Cardinals in baseball did, buy their own flagship station and own and build their own network, keeping every dollar they take in beyond what it costs to operate it. That system works for the Cardinals on radio, and certainly works for the New York Yankees when it comes to TV rights. Perhaps Ralph Wilson should approach Entercom and tell them he's interested in buying KB and running it with a combination of football coverage and a format that doesn't compete with WBEN or WGR--like a return of personality oldies.
The problem here isn't the contract, or the sales effort--it's the team. The Bills have been so dull and unsuccessful on the field for so long, it's going to take a miracle (in the form of a 10-6 finish and wild card playoff berth) to make carrying the team a paying proposition. This is one problem that isn't of Citadel's making, but originates squarely at One Bills Drive.
The obvious solution is to improve the team--but one wonders if anything short of new ownership will make that happen. (Don't worry about the team moving, there is no other market in North America that has both a suitable playing facility and a sufficiently large potential fan base to be profitable, other than markets that already have the NFL. LA is a decade away from being able to build a public/private partnership to build a stadium, and Toronto is lacking both a 70,000 seat facility and a fan base interested enough to even remotely approach the support Western NY gives to even a blah product. Unless the NFL can be convinced to slot a third team in the greater New York area on a field within the five boroughs of New York Cityitself, there's no market lacking an NFL team that could support one as well as Buffalo does now, and there won't be one for the foreseeable future. Hence there's nowhere for the Bills to go, that'd be as good as where they now are.)
The team may either have to give away the rights for a simple percentage of commercial revenue sold (no up-front rights fee), or do what the St. Louis Cardinals in baseball did, buy their own flagship station and own and build their own network, keeping every dollar they take in beyond what it costs to operate it. That system works for the Cardinals on radio, and certainly works for the New York Yankees when it comes to TV rights. Perhaps Ralph Wilson should approach Entercom and tell them he's interested in buying KB and running it with a combination of football coverage and a format that doesn't compete with WBEN or WGR--like a return of personality oldies.
Interesting. But I can't see a smaller-market, losing NFL team deciding to get into the radio ownership business. The Bills have enough problems on the field.
And as much as sentimentality propels me to wish for a new life for 1520 - as I know you do, Bob - a purchase of KB by the Bills is a non-starter, with the NFL push to move their teams to FMs.
From my own negotiations with the Chargers - when we were a Browns affiliate we explored airing a few games for Flutie fans during bye weeks and weeks when there were weeknight games - we learned that the sole interest the NFL has in radio, is in generating hometown ticket sales. I think Chargers games at the time were only heard on a SD station and one in Albuquerque, if memory serves - they didn't really have a "radio network." The Chargers were very nice, but they explained to me (a) no radio coverage in WNY is going get listeners to get on a plane to San Diego, and (b) the league protects audiences in foreign markets - IOW, no New York competition for the Bills and Browns (and to a lesser extent here, the Giants.)
As far as the Bills changing the financial model over broadcast rights - rotsa ruck on that one. I think the team will continue to subscribe to the "bigger fool" concept, betting that SOMEONE will come up with the exorbitant price.
And as much as sentimentality propels me to wish for a new life for 1520 - as I know you do, Bob - a purchase of KB by the Bills is a non-starter, with the NFL push to move their teams to FMs.
From my own negotiations with the Chargers - when we were a Browns affiliate we explored airing a few games for Flutie fans during bye weeks and weeks when there were weeknight games - we learned that the sole interest the NFL has in radio, is in generating hometown ticket sales. I think Chargers games at the time were only heard on a SD station and one in Albuquerque, if memory serves - they didn't really have a "radio network." The Chargers were very nice, but they explained to me (a) no radio coverage in WNY is going get listeners to get on a plane to San Diego, and (b) the league protects audiences in foreign markets - IOW, no New York competition for the Bills and Browns (and to a lesser extent here, the Giants.)
As far as the Bills changing the financial model over broadcast rights - rotsa ruck on that one. I think the team will continue to subscribe to the "bigger fool" concept, betting that SOMEONE will come up with the exorbitant price.
The Bills want two things:
1. MONEY. LOTS of money.
2. Games on FM. The AM is nice, but they seem to be convinced that the next generation of fans won't listen if the games aren't on FM.
Looking at WGR's anemic numbers, I'd say that they need the Bills more than 97-Rock. If Entercom wants them, then The Lake is the logical choice for an FM outlet for Bills games. It blankets a large swath of WNY, and complements 'GRs coverage map nicely.
1. MONEY. LOTS of money.
2. Games on FM. The AM is nice, but they seem to be convinced that the next generation of fans won't listen if the games aren't on FM.
Looking at WGR's anemic numbers, I'd say that they need the Bills more than 97-Rock. If Entercom wants them, then The Lake is the logical choice for an FM outlet for Bills games. It blankets a large swath of WNY, and complements 'GRs coverage map nicely.
Well, that pretty much covers it. ;D Thank you RCS!! Sometimes old thoughts don't carry over to reality...just an ego thing.
That's all
HDBG
An important question here...are we talking simply repeating the AM on FM?
OR
Are we discussing the possibility of serving different areas with the same WBEN content, BUT with separate ads running on both the AM and FM?
If the FM side can reach a specific area the AM can't, then there's where separate ads for the FM side could generate extra revenue.
For example, if a Joe's taco place is present in a specific area where Mighty taco is not, there's where I see some logic...
For example:
AM side = Mighty taco ads
FM side = Joe's taco place ads
OR
Are we discussing the possibility of serving different areas with the same WBEN content, BUT with separate ads running on both the AM and FM?
If the FM side can reach a specific area the AM can't, then there's where separate ads for the FM side could generate extra revenue.
For example, if a Joe's taco place is present in a specific area where Mighty taco is not, there's where I see some logic...
For example:
AM side = Mighty taco ads
FM side = Joe's taco place ads
Another FM format bites the dust in favor of an AM simulcast. This time the AM signal isn't a problem! It's WGY!
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/adds-1278503-latham-simulcast.html
http://www.cbs6albany.com/news/adds-1278503-latham-simulcast.html
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