Seriously?? enough with the hip hop propaganda!
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IS this a DANCE board or a HIP HOP board??????
- Thread starter mannyworks00
- Start date
It certainly is hard to tell when we have a bunch of music with no name coming out and everywhere you go everyone is making up names or calling it whatever they want. The old genre terms are forgotten, or people reject the new material from being accepted in certain genres they would've been if only it wasn't released in late 00's. So, until new names / genre labels are issued for this new sound, it will be pushed around everywhere from pop to hip hop to dance...etc, kind of like back in grade school when kids think something has cooties so all the kids push the object away because no one wants to accept it. Only problems is that in the end, only ONE community will care or suffer if it's part of the dance sound that isn't accepted or falls apart because it didn't meet the requirements to be good enough to some.
These days, there are a bunch of stuff I hear on the radio and I have no idea what it is. Well, in reality, some of it is house or some form of electro-dance, but because there is rap present in it or because it is sang by a certain person, I'm sure many people will reject it. Hip hoppers will hear the beat and it will automatically be thrown out of the hip hop community, even if it's "one of their own", but probably would be more open to it than the dance community if they are in the mood to accept it. The new booty bass stuff... well, no one knows what booty bass is anymore - it's a forgotten term. You can forget about freestyle or latin house, and breakbeat or electro really has no true meaning in the U.S. anymore.
So, to be honest, technically it's a dance board, and my answer would be that until a new name is given so we could create a new section to discuss the no name sound on these boards, we should either
1. Accept it thrown about and discussed in multiple places, or
2. Ban it from being discussed on these boards or move the new sound discussion to off topics or take it outside.
That's the only solution I can come up with for this no name unacceptable sound that's quickly becoming the next big thing! Someone is going to get credit for the new sound, and after what I saw on facebook today, it certainly looks like the dance community doesn't want the credit - unless it's by a certain artist. I don't know about hip hop, but with most people thinking if it contains rap or is by a former hip hop artist then it must be hip hop, I'm thinking hip hop may have a bigger chance of winning.. even though it's pretty much all over for them. All I know is that unlike the dance section, there is no other section that cares whether or not the dance sound is successful, so they could care less who accepts the new sound. This guy in the rhythmic/chr section who posts new music all the time almost NEVER gets any comments if a new Cascada or something dance is presented. Why? Because they don't care. So it's up to us if we want to continue to be "separate, but equal".
Well... we'll probably never officially know in 2010 or even 2011 or 2012 because as of right now, everything is being called everything while at the same time, no one is accepting things anymore if it's "too new" or "not the right way based on exactly how it used to be in the past". Maybe we need some sort of Genre Reform, where we can grant certain sounds the right to have citizenship within genres that they once could've been.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________/
One of the beauties of European dance music is they know exactly what their sounds are! It's so nice when European DJ's put dj mixes up and you know PRECISELY what sound you're getting because they label it precisely. I know this one girl who says "this is fidget house" ... "this is funky house" ... "this is dirty tech... dubstep... electro-pop... so everyone knows exactly what they are getting. Here in the U.S., you get "hip hop / club / dance / techno mix" and it could be anything from Lil Jon to Christina Aguilera to David Guetta to Technotronic to Sean Paul to a Lady Antebellum remix... Then you're like "What the hell? But I was told that this was/wasn't....(fill in blank).
These days, there are a bunch of stuff I hear on the radio and I have no idea what it is. Well, in reality, some of it is house or some form of electro-dance, but because there is rap present in it or because it is sang by a certain person, I'm sure many people will reject it. Hip hoppers will hear the beat and it will automatically be thrown out of the hip hop community, even if it's "one of their own", but probably would be more open to it than the dance community if they are in the mood to accept it. The new booty bass stuff... well, no one knows what booty bass is anymore - it's a forgotten term. You can forget about freestyle or latin house, and breakbeat or electro really has no true meaning in the U.S. anymore.
So, to be honest, technically it's a dance board, and my answer would be that until a new name is given so we could create a new section to discuss the no name sound on these boards, we should either
1. Accept it thrown about and discussed in multiple places, or
2. Ban it from being discussed on these boards or move the new sound discussion to off topics or take it outside.
That's the only solution I can come up with for this no name unacceptable sound that's quickly becoming the next big thing! Someone is going to get credit for the new sound, and after what I saw on facebook today, it certainly looks like the dance community doesn't want the credit - unless it's by a certain artist. I don't know about hip hop, but with most people thinking if it contains rap or is by a former hip hop artist then it must be hip hop, I'm thinking hip hop may have a bigger chance of winning.. even though it's pretty much all over for them. All I know is that unlike the dance section, there is no other section that cares whether or not the dance sound is successful, so they could care less who accepts the new sound. This guy in the rhythmic/chr section who posts new music all the time almost NEVER gets any comments if a new Cascada or something dance is presented. Why? Because they don't care. So it's up to us if we want to continue to be "separate, but equal".
Well... we'll probably never officially know in 2010 or even 2011 or 2012 because as of right now, everything is being called everything while at the same time, no one is accepting things anymore if it's "too new" or "not the right way based on exactly how it used to be in the past". Maybe we need some sort of Genre Reform, where we can grant certain sounds the right to have citizenship within genres that they once could've been.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________/
One of the beauties of European dance music is they know exactly what their sounds are! It's so nice when European DJ's put dj mixes up and you know PRECISELY what sound you're getting because they label it precisely. I know this one girl who says "this is fidget house" ... "this is funky house" ... "this is dirty tech... dubstep... electro-pop... so everyone knows exactly what they are getting. Here in the U.S., you get "hip hop / club / dance / techno mix" and it could be anything from Lil Jon to Christina Aguilera to David Guetta to Technotronic to Sean Paul to a Lady Antebellum remix... Then you're like "What the hell? But I was told that this was/wasn't....(fill in blank).
I do have to admit though that if people were here talking about Big Pun, Lil Wayne, Jay-Z, or Tupac hits all in their ORIGINAL forms on this board, then I'd probably not be too happy about it either. But if it's Clinton Sparks "go dj" or even Cascada "evacuate the dancefloor" or even Enrique Iglesias ft Pitbull "I like it" and anything electronic that should be a part of dance/electronica, then I don't mind. It would've been funny if the Black Eyed Peas were never accepted because they were once pure hip hop. Many people say Fergie "automatically transformed" the group just by now being in it, so I guess... so be it.
I kind of wonder what people did with La Bouche, Real McCoy, Captain Hollywood Project, and many of the euro songs from back in the day with rap in it? I wonder what happened to Marky Mark and Snap? ...or were they always accepted in dance despite the rap being present in their songs? If only these boards were around back in the Outhere Brothers and Crystal Waters days because I'm really interested to see how they were labeled back in those days. Too bad I was too young to have a mind that would pay attention to those things at that time. I also find it interesting how Heavy D's "now that we found love" was considered hip hop, but many urbans wont even touch Black Eyed Peas material today. We are one confused people in 2010.
I kind of wonder what people did with La Bouche, Real McCoy, Captain Hollywood Project, and many of the euro songs from back in the day with rap in it? I wonder what happened to Marky Mark and Snap? ...or were they always accepted in dance despite the rap being present in their songs? If only these boards were around back in the Outhere Brothers and Crystal Waters days because I'm really interested to see how they were labeled back in those days. Too bad I was too young to have a mind that would pay attention to those things at that time. I also find it interesting how Heavy D's "now that we found love" was considered hip hop, but many urbans wont even touch Black Eyed Peas material today. We are one confused people in 2010.
I'll keep this brief.
It seems like nowadays, we get a lot of "hybrid" tracks out there. Pitbull is the perfect example of that. I heard what sounded like a hip-hop track on 92.3 Now in NYC that sounded more like dance (I forget the name but at one point the rap sounded like a "chipmunk", so you all probably know what I'm talking about).
But KDM, question to you. Why do we need to desperately find a "name" to all of this? I say, let it be dance! As long as it doesn't have that "gangsta" hip-hop sound, then I don't have a problem with it. On my show I've played tracks that had a "hip-hop" undertone to this...."Let Me Sip My Drink" by Fast Eddie was one.
Granted, a lot of the "hate" on hip-hop came about when all of the dance oriented radio stations back in the 90's were "purged" out with this format. On the other side of the coin, hip-hop fans are HATING on the fact that a lot of these artists are "selling out" to dance!
You can't win!
But last I've checked...this still is a dance board. But if hip-hop artists are coming over, just as long as it's not gangsta but about FUN, then I don't see a problem with it.
It seems like nowadays, we get a lot of "hybrid" tracks out there. Pitbull is the perfect example of that. I heard what sounded like a hip-hop track on 92.3 Now in NYC that sounded more like dance (I forget the name but at one point the rap sounded like a "chipmunk", so you all probably know what I'm talking about).
But KDM, question to you. Why do we need to desperately find a "name" to all of this? I say, let it be dance! As long as it doesn't have that "gangsta" hip-hop sound, then I don't have a problem with it. On my show I've played tracks that had a "hip-hop" undertone to this...."Let Me Sip My Drink" by Fast Eddie was one.
Granted, a lot of the "hate" on hip-hop came about when all of the dance oriented radio stations back in the 90's were "purged" out with this format. On the other side of the coin, hip-hop fans are HATING on the fact that a lot of these artists are "selling out" to dance!
You can't win!
But last I've checked...this still is a dance board. But if hip-hop artists are coming over, just as long as it's not gangsta but about FUN, then I don't see a problem with it.
M
Mid West Clubber
Guest
K and Tony sometimes you guys, and also Zorn are the only ones that really get it when it comes to merging and blending these genres.. We cant stay with hardcore Diva Dance, and G-Funk Gangsta rap forever... the genres have met in the middle to produce what I call Dance-POP,, or Electro hip hop. The dance snobs and rap snobs push this sound away,, but we need it. BTW We also need our House, Trance, Electro, NRG,,, Hardstyle, Euro.. we need all the 4x4 beats we can get.
Tony Santiago said:
Because, with a name for a particular sound, it's easier to identify and make exclusive projects directed towards people who love that particular sound. For example, the type of mixes I do, I bet I lose or miss an incredible amount of fans that may like a certain sound I deliver all because it's simply just called "dance", so when they see "dance" they automatically begin to assume things and believe they are not interested, based on what they believe "dance" is. Another example; Lets say freestyle or booty bass never had their own labels. How would you deliver or present that sound to people if there was never a name to begin with? On my site, I have the hardest time these days labeling my mixes by genre because of the lack of a term. Most people will first look to see if it's a genre they're interested in before anything else. if it simply says "dance" or "club", then they will automatically think back to every other dj they remembered using those terms and think "it must be the same thing". If I do the following mix:
Akon - Beautiful
Jay Sean - Down
Stefanie Bennett - Can U stop the rain (South Mix)
Britney - 3
Black Eyed Peas - Boom Boom Pow
Rockell & Joe Zangie - When I want you back
David Guetta ft Akon - Nosy Neighbor
Jeremih - Birthday Sex (remix)
Sharyn Maceren - Sweet Nothings
Flo Rida - In the ayer
Far*east Movement - Like a G6
Notice none of those songs have house pattern beats, but they are also not hip hop, typical pop, or r&b, or even regular electro-pop or dance. They are all uptempo with a certain distinct sound and beat formula. Imagine me trying to promote this sound under "dance", "club", or even "house" or "pop" or worse, "hip hop"...etc. Anyone interested in that particular sound would feel absolutely no desire to check it out under any of the modern genre labels because none of them paint that actual picture of sound in a person's mind. Using "breakbeat" is too strong because people who are familiar with that term already have their thoughts on what breakbeat is. Electro-Hip Hop is good, but so far all the stations I've heard jump on that term have been pushing electro-hip hop as rappers rapping mainly over electronic HOUSE beats, or hip hop remixes put to electronic house beats.
I could understand calling it dance/top 40 dance or something generic with things like Usher OMG or Pitbull's "calle ocho" and other mainstream hits with house beats thrown in, but if it's that style I presented above alone, all in break beat style fashion, then somehow it should be classifiable. It would be nice to see new compilations featuring this sound resurface and be appropriately labeled as it was once back in the 90's. What we are hearing now is still just the beginning of things to come. There will be a lot more of this sound coming out, the same way like when Nocera released "summertime summertime", that was till only the beginning of things to come with that sound during that era. Nocera, TKA, Shannon, Will 2 Power, Debbie Deb...etc music did sound similar to pop songs of that time, but was different enough to be given it's own genre label. Oh, AND - they were also not shunned from the dance community... if there was one at that time. At least, clearly not now, and that was some really poppy stuff.
KDM 7000 said:
These examples are mostly "Pop"...plain and simple. The average person knows most of them, and have them on their I-Pods (in the same playlist with the Top 20). They don't think of them as any of the nerdy sub genres. Only insiders or niche audiences can relate to such...
OOOHHH!! AND BY THE WAY,
Keep in mind that list I gave is not exactly how I do my stuff. I only used those artists because those artists are the ones people are mostly familiar with that are also almost perfect examples of the sound I'm describing. This is also why I want to know what the definition of "pop" is before I start labeling underground or unpopular new school productions like "The Night" by Blake McGrath or "fly away" by Big Laz as pop.
Keep in mind that list I gave is not exactly how I do my stuff. I only used those artists because those artists are the ones people are mostly familiar with that are also almost perfect examples of the sound I'm describing. This is also why I want to know what the definition of "pop" is before I start labeling underground or unpopular new school productions like "The Night" by Blake McGrath or "fly away" by Big Laz as pop.
A
andone
Guest
The majority of rap/hip-hop is dance. Though I know many people would like to, you can't change or revise history or reality. And we can't deem certain music dance or "not dance" based on our own personal tastes. Sure there's some crappy rap music but there's a whooooole lotta crappy Euro-dance music too. In my opinion there's more crappy Euro-dance, but that's just based on my taste. It's all dance though. Hip-hop just happens to be the most popular form of dance music in the U.S. for the past two decades, so yeah it would pop up in discussions here.
KDM 7000 said:
Psst please get Lil Wayne the hell out of the same sentence with Big Pun, 2Pac & Jay-Z ;D
With that being said I do generally agree with the premise you are making and fact of the matter is some of the dance today does have a bit of a hip hop flavor to it and vice versa, similar (though a totally different sound) as what we experienced in the early and mid 90's with the Eurodance stuff.
andone said:
When "rap" started out, tracks like "Good Times", an extremely popular R&B track adopted by the disco community, were taken by The Sugarhill Gang with "Rappers Delight". Tracks by Grandmaster Flash, Kurtis Blow, Jimmy Spicer, etc. were influenced by the disco sounds at the time as well as the pre "electro/breaks" sounds by Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic Force. So there's your history and reality on that. It went in a different direction as the music evolved to a more harder/"real"/edgier style and eventually became what it is today.
While you may "dance" to hip-hop (and I HAVE seen this at Marquee, a club in NYC) it is NOT the same as dancing to house, electro, trance, etc. NO ONE is calling hip-hop "dance music" in that regard, even WITHIN the hip-hop community. Hip-hop IS hip-hop. Ask Brooklyn Don on the New York City board.
Let's take it a step further here and get out of the hip-hop discussion. Reggaeton was at a peak a couple of years ago and was seen as a dance form in the Latino communities. Yet from a perspective of a dance music fan...reggaeton is reggaeton and NOT house, electro, trance, etc.
THOUGH....what I am seeing happen as of late CAN constitute dance. Three 6 Mafia is the perfect example there as they did that one track with Tiesto. A lot more R&B artists are doing hybrid dance and I think that's where both communities can come to "common ground" so as long as we don't act "elitist" on both sides.
You know what I just realized andone, you said the roots on the other hip-hop thread in here. I swear I didn't read it before I posted my thoughts
A
andone
Guest
I really wish people would stop referencing 80s/90s hip-house as Eurodance stuff. That (hip-house) mainly started in Chicago and New York.
Europeans are frank about being inspired by American music. They do jazz, blues, rock, R&B, and in the 70s disco, in the 80s house, R&B, pop, hip-hop, etc.
Plus, go back a little further in hip-hop history; the sounds of today aren’t new at all, and they don’t just go back to the early/mid 90s. (see my post in the thread about whether hip-hop is the new dance sound)
I don’t need Brooklyn Don – whoever he is - to let me know what hip-hop is. I’m a musician, know music theory, and have studied music history. I’ve been a fan of various forms of American music since I was a youngin in the 70s. I can give him a lesson if he needs one. I’ll reiterate:
"Though I know many people would like to, you can't change or revise history or reality. And we can't deem certain music dance or "not dance" based on our own personal tastes."
That applies to hip-hop, rock, R&B and other musical forms also.
By the way, what’s the difference between dancing to house and to hip-hop? What happens when the two are in the same mix?
So then why is trance considered dance music? Why isn’t trance just trance?
Who decides what is and isn’t dance music?
What is the determination of what is or isn’t dance music based on?
And what is your definition of electro?
I'm only answering my quotes here....
Scuuuuse me! : Just stating a thought. If you're going to come off "holier than thou", let me know at this point. BTW, I've studied musical theory and history too and even though I lean towards dance, I also have grown up with various forms of music being a youth of the 70's as well.
Because in the case of trance and yes, electro, they both are based in terms of the speed of the beats (generally around 118 BPM and above). Which also qualifies hip-house (since you went there) as a form of dance because the speed of the house beats determine this. Sure, you can dance to hip-hop but it is NOT considered a form of dance music, BASED ON, the definition of beats! Rhythmic/hybrid tracks have the opportunity to be listed as dance and I'm more than willing to accept that so as long as the dance music community doesn't become "elitist" on it. And based on that, people make the determinations of what is dance or not. I don't make the rules but know that there is a pattern going on.
Yes, the roots of hip-hop came from the disco era...you said that and SO DID I. And if things are heading back that way, then perhaps more people may be open to hip-hop in a dancy state.
So...do we continue with a positive proactive discussion? :-\
andone said:
Scuuuuse me! :
Just stating a thought. If you're going to come off "holier than thou", let me know at this point. BTW, I've studied musical theory and history too and even though I lean towards dance, I also have grown up with various forms of music being a youth of the 70's as well.andone said:
Because in the case of trance and yes, electro, they both are based in terms of the speed of the beats (generally around 118 BPM and above). Which also qualifies hip-house (since you went there) as a form of dance because the speed of the house beats determine this. Sure, you can dance to hip-hop but it is NOT considered a form of dance music, BASED ON, the definition of beats! Rhythmic/hybrid tracks have the opportunity to be listed as dance and I'm more than willing to accept that so as long as the dance music community doesn't become "elitist" on it. And based on that, people make the determinations of what is dance or not. I don't make the rules but know that there is a pattern going on.
Yes, the roots of hip-hop came from the disco era...you said that and SO DID I. And if things are heading back that way, then perhaps more people may be open to hip-hop in a dancy state.
So...do we continue with a positive proactive discussion? :-\
andone said:
Well... see? This here is the problem.
This is why I'm beginning to reuse the original word electronica that everyone is familiar with. That's one of those terms from back in the day when we had appropriate labels for each sound to the point where you could make compilations for particular sounds and appropriately title them in such a way that people knew precisely what they were getting.
Remember "DMA freestyle flava" or Tony Monaco's "Freestyle Heaven"? Remember "Euro Freestyle Invasion"? Remember Booty Bass compilations? Remember "Soso Def Bass Allstars"? These days, if you do any new, modernized versions of those particular sounds in compilation form, there would be no way to title it in such a way that people knew they were getting that particular sound (unless of course you titled it "Look at the tracklisting and judge for yourself"). If I wanted to make a booty bass compilation using modern Flo Rida "low" type sounds with NO house or any other styles mixed in, I'd be forced to use a word like "uptempo" or "pop" or "electro-hiphop", which would only attract people who are interested in things OTHER THAN booty bass. I'd alienate my target audience and attract others who thought other things by those other terms. The same if I made a compilation featuring the new freestyle sound. They don't even label remixes anymore to indicate certain sound styles. Remember back when things used to be called "bass remix" or "booty mix" or "freestyle mix" or at least were named by DJ's/Producers you knew so you could tell what it was like just by seeing things like "Cibola Mix" "Slammin Sam Remix" or "Hex hector"? Nowadays, you just get things like "uptempo mix" and you don't know what type of uptempo mix it is until you hear it first! I guess it some ways all these promo services who made it convenient to just call it "funkymix" or "ultimix" also helped to kill off the official terms.
Isn't this supposed to be a booty or bass mix (not just "uptempo" or "part 2")?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FviJMOtGka8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GNj...F35E6371&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=62
And wasn't this sound once considered a freestyle (or even bass) mix?
http://www.mixmatters.com/hot/2010/Jeremih-I_Like-uptempo_radio_edit.html
And what in the world is this now?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmJQ569nmWE
By the way, electronica is good for covering ALL of the dance sound (even the slower electronic pop and downtempo and chill..etc), but those examples I posted above still remain nameless today
A
andone
Guest
I can’t determine how you’ll interpret anything write, but let’s just say that my tone is consistent. That said, I wasn’t trying to snap at you, just like you I was making a comment: I don’t need to seek advice or schooling from BrooklynDan whom I don’t even know or have never heard from. But speaking of “holier than thou”:
That can be read different ways also, so let’s not nitpick.
I know that. You mentioned you were 43 earlier. I’d never suggested my age here so I provided a reference FAO.
Good. If you have studied music theory and history then you and I should be able to have a more substantial discussion than usual. Let’s go …
So are all songs above 118 BPM considered dance? If a song is under 118 BPM then it is not dance?
If I speed up a 110 BPM song to 118 does it go from not-dance to dance?
All hip-hop is not the same beat, though. Do you consider all rap/hip-hop over 118 BPM dance music?
That’s kinda vague. I’m a person and if I say it’s all dance does that end the debate?
Definitely 8)
Who do you mean by “everyone”? Certainly not the average American or even music consumer. There are plenty of people who’d refer to BEP, Flo-Rida, and LMFAO as hip-hop but not electronica.
As for the examples you gave, my guess is that many in the “dance” community wouldn’t consider those “dance” or “electronica.”
Did any significant amount of people use the term electronica before 1995 anyway? All I ever remember about this term was that some DJs, producers, and record labels came together to coin (or embrace) this term around 1996 to market the trance and techno sounds of that time.
I’m just leery of any “musical form” that arises more from a corporate branding effort than an artistic development. I’ve yet to hear a definition and history of electronica that makes any sense. Most forms of contemporary music have been composed and produced electronically since the 80s. I haven’t heard too much live/acoustic pop, R&B, and hip-hop for decades. And the sounds and rhythms of mid 90s techno and trance weren’t new. Anyone care to provide a definition and/or lineage for “electronica”?
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