Is this how we're going to spend 2009?

[RadeoEngineer]

American Airlines could care less if you play with your "Moon Bounce" hobby as a ham. However when you say "We should stop air travel because it interferes with my ability to utilize "Moon bounce", then you're being nonsensical.

My point has been made. By comparing me with a child bouncing on a moon bounce - you have attempted to marginalize me.

Err. Let me be polite...

Right after it says "Moon Bounce hobby"it says "As a ham".

Moon Bounce communications in amateur radio are accomplished by bouncng a signal, VHF IIRC, from the Earth to the Moon and back to the Earth. It is fairly sophisticated, requiring some specialized equipment as well as a knowledge of RF propagation and Celestial movement. Geometry and Calculus are helpful as well. Air traffic will disrupt attempts at moon bounce communications to a degree. That was my point.

Ad hominen arguments lose the debate - look it up. So - I WIN, you LOSE - deal with it!

Let me quote "Wrath of Kahn"? "I Yield to the superior intellect"

If you want to discuss the issue intelligently, without resorting to ad hominen attacks, I'd be happy to.

You're kidding me, right?

Out.

Clouseau

Darn it! Stop being so etheareal! It's conflicting my brain and harshing my mellow!

 

[KB1OKL]

Oh - really? Try posting on here about skywave or DX and feel the love from the pro-IBOC folks.

IBOC folks could care less about DXing. Herein lies the perception issue. DXing is a hobby. PERIOD. If you want to DX, fine. It's like Ham radio and American Airlines. American Airlines could care less if you play with your "Moon Bounce" hobby as a ham. However when you say "We should stop air travel because it interferes with my ability to utilize "Moon bounce", then you're being nonsensical. However here is where your issue comes from. You're apparent;y not satisfied with DXing. You want "DXing protection". KB has posted on this forum how "Boston FMHD has interfered with his analog NYC skip listening." You have mislabeled "ANY" broadcasters dismissal of your DXing complaints, with they "Hate You". And you have transposed that onto HD.


You find the comparison "Biased" because you expect protection for your hobby. I like horses as much as the next guy, but you can't expect to get "protection" so you can ride one down the freeway.



The issue here is truly identifying what DXing is. Radio DXing. It's a hobby. Not much more.

Clouseau

First of all Inspector you are confusing me with someone else for the umpteenth time, I am not nor have ever been an FM DXer. I am strictly a medium wave DXer and I do not dislike IBOC simply because it ruins my DXing, it also ruins my radio listening and ruins everyone's listening and 99.9% of the listeners have no idea why, we DXers do which is why we complain, we know what to complain about.

Second of all, of all comparing airplanes rerouting because of hams moon bounce which IS a hobby to IBOC being mercifully put out of it's misery because of MANY listeners getting their favorite stations trounced by noise which is a commercial venture is ridiculous. You just don't get why IBOC has failed and why most radio people dislike it, this is patently obvious.

IBOC stations care nothing about ANY OTHER BROADCASTER PERIOD. When I post about noise on the medium wave band I'm not only posting as a DXer I'm posting about not being able to get certain stations I want to listen to AS A LISTENER which I have complained about many many times here. I listen to them for the music or talk I want to hear. I am now listening to the former CHWO 740 Toronto, this time with a Hammarlund HQ-180 and a 10 ft piece of wire on the floor, if someone on 730 or 750 starts to broadcast the 30KHz wide whoosh machine I will complain, because AS A LISTENER I like to listen to it late at night sitting here at the computer (WSB turned off the buzz machine). IBOC is to radio what a polluted super fund site is to the USA. I don't know if any IBOC broadcaster cares about this but AM radio has channels which are 10 KHz apart not thirty, just as FM radio is assigned channels 200 KHz wide not 420 KHz, this is a problem.

 

[clouseau]

[First of all Inspector you are confusing me with someone else for the umpteenth time, I am not nor have ever been an FM DXer. I am strictly a medium wave DXer and I do not dislike IBOC simply because it ruins my DXing, it also ruins my radio listening and ruins everyone's listening and 99.9% of the listeners have no idea why, we DXers do which is why we complain, we know what to complain about.

KB, I have to stop you there and call BS. You just posted that "everyone's" radio listening is ruined by HD radio. Rarely has such an untrue claim been made by anyone, even on these boards. Since "I" am someone and HD radio does not ruin my radio listening, I am posting the following. YOU ARE WRONG.

Second of all, of all comparing airplanes rerouting because of hams moon bounce which IS a hobby to IBOC being mercifully put out of it's misery because of MANY listeners getting their favorite stations trounced by noise which is a commercial venture is ridiculous.

Well we better not commercialize Moon Bounce then... The scenario was used to illustrate the silliness of protecting this hit or miss DXing. FIrst off let me say that I think what is happening here is we have a different definition of DXing. You envision a DXer as a hobbiest. A guy with a radio he knows the model number of and a ball of wire on the floor. Or in a tree. Or on a tower. A guy destined to get his ham ticket. I'm going to walk out on a limb here and say that the radio industry see's listeners as either local listeners (They be in the red line at Radio-locator) or Distant listeners (Outside the red line at radio locator) To most broadcasters, those local listeners are the only ones that matter. They're also the only ones who amount to anything numbers wise. Or generate any revenue. If you could market to wide areas, stations would. Hasn't even the "Truckin' Bozo" show moved to Satrad? There's no money in DX overall. At leat very few if any have been able to gnerate it.

Perhaps I should refer to the type of listening you talk about below as "Out Of Market" instead of DX. Please try to understand that if you are not a local listener, you really have little value to a station. Sure they always want "More Listeners", but from a revenue standpoint, it's just not significant. There's a much better upside selling ads on HD2 than there is selling ads on CHWO in Worcester, MA. (Not a good AMvs FM comparison, but you get the idea)

You just don't get why IBOC has failed and why most radio people dislike it, this is patently obvious.

What's "Patently obvious" is that you are proclaiming things which aren't exactly facts. I have no idea if you are proclaiming the death of AM IBOC or IBOC as a whole. If you're proclaiming AM, your're a little early. If you're proclaiiming, FM-HD I'd suspect you're wrong altogether. And I'm sure the "Most radio people dislike it" is rooted in some fact somewhere. I'm sure I have just as much research that they don't dislike it. That would be NONE.

IBOC stations care nothing about ANY OTHER BROADCASTER PERIOD.

That's pretty much true for analog broadcasters as well. Broadcasters care about THEIR station. If they can raise power legally, they apply and do it. If they can get more channels, they do it. If they can buy every station in the market they do it. It's not a digital thing. It's a "radio today".

When I post about noise on the medium wave band I'm not only posting as a DXer I'm posting about not being able to get certain stations I want to listen to AS A LISTENER which I have complained about many many times here. I listen to them for the music or talk I want to hear.

Again, you lament that they don't care about "Out of market" listening. I know. We agree. They don't. Digital or otherwise.

I am now listening to the former CHWO 740 Toronto, this time with a Hammarlund HQ-180 and a 10 ft piece of wire on the floor, if someone on 730 or 750 starts to broadcast the 30KHz wide whoosh machine I will complain, because AS A LISTENER I like to listen to it late at night sitting here at the computer (WSB turned off the buzz machine).

Oh good grief. Again with the wire on the floor? WJIB in Boston, MA Broadcasts on 740 with 5 watts at night. Same channel you're listening to. Should THEY have to sign off to protect people in Boston's 740 Canadian distant listenening? Agree with it or not, please give some thought to the way radio allocations are determined. Your view is about 40 yeasrs too late.

IBOC is to radio what a polluted super fund site is to the USA. I don't know if any IBOC broadcaster cares about this but AM radio has channels which are 10 KHz apart not thirty, just as FM radio is assigned channels 200 KHz wide not 420 KHz, this is a problem.

And as you know, AM and FM channels are not able to be utilized next to each other. Neither AM Radio nor FM radio nor TV can have first adjacent spacing. That's because, even analog interferes clsoe in on 1st second and third adjacent channels. BTW 1st 2rd and 3rd adjacent spacing has limitations on analog as imposed by the FCC. Your complaining about your skywave experience from a station Hundreds of miles away in another country, co-Channel with a station on the same frequency in your own DMA.

You've got an uphill battle selling that one, KB

Clouseau

 

[KB1OKL]

Inspector, I'm not going to take all the time to dispute your trying to discredit my last post but will say that I am first and foremost a listener. I love radio, all aspects and that is why I am here, DXing is one aspect of my listening, right now it is 1:15 in the afternoon and I am listening to oldies 1250 WARE with my C Crane twin Loop as I sit here typing.
You probably already realize this but I have some decent outside antennas such as (2) 400' LW's that I use with a phasing unit and a 160M dipole I transmit and receive with. I use the wire on the floor as an illustration. I also have large tunable air core loop antennas, amplified ferrite antennas, etc. I have had in the past roof top FM Yagis. I can receive CHWO 740 with a 10' piece of wire laying on the floor which is 450 miles roughly from my location and cannot receive WBZ 1030's IBOC at 40 miles consistently. I realize again why most broadcasters don't care about distant listeners, that is not my point. Broadcasters should not have the right to trample distant broadcasters whether they care or not, this is where the FCC was SUPPOSED to come in and hopefully will again now that Boy Industry Toy Kevy Martin will be shown the door soon.


***** JOKE ALERT!!!! JOKE ALERT!!!!!***** (for touchy iBOC proponents)

I have been thinking of getting this new super duper long distance ultra fringe combo FM and AM antenna for my Sony, what do you think?

http://www.radioarcala.com/nbspStation/TowersandAntennas/Tower7/tabid/358/Default.aspx

 

[clouseau]

Inspector, I'm not going to take all the time to dispute your trying to discredit my last post ....Boy Industry Toy Kevy Martin ....

Look it's pretty obvious that you have your mind made up and you think you're right. Fair enough. I was merely trying to illustrate in a mature manner why that view isn't considered valid.

It's obvious that you feel you deserve some type of consideration for your listening since you have "some decent outside antennas such as (2) 400' LW's that I use with a phasing unit and a 160M dipole I transmit and receive with. I use the wire on the floor as an illustration. I also have large tunable air core loop antennas, amplified ferrite antennas, etc. I have had in the past roof top FM Yagis."

You also wrote

Broadcasters should not have the right to trample distant broadcasters

With the equipment you list, virtually every analog radio station in the nation "tramples distant broadcasters." Where's the outrage there?

Clouseau

 

[KB1OKL]

Inspector, I'm not going to take all the time to dispute your trying to discredit my last post ....Boy Industry Toy Kevy Martin ....

Look it's pretty obvious that you have your mind made up and you think you're right. Fair enough. I was merely trying to illustrate in a mature manner why that view isn't considered valid.


Clouseau

Of course I'm right, you haven't figured that out yet?

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Local analog listening is severely impaired by the additional HD radio iHiss trash. Try listening anywhere within a couple of miles of a major market antenna farm, all those additional HD radio carriers cause much more intermodulation interference all over the dial. So much for the "a few DXers are the only ones affected" HD promoter mantra, so often falsely peddled here.

This local interference will be greatly increased in the unlikely event that the proposed 10x power increase is approved and the power increase becomes popular.

 

[clouseau]

Local analog listening is severely impaired by the additional HD radio iHiss trash. Try listening anywhere within a couple of miles of a major market antenna farm, all those additional HD radio carriers cause much more intermodulation interference all over the dial.

I moved out of Philadelphia in 1977. Even then, you couldn't drive down the Schulkill expressway without getting all kinds of junk from legit stations as you go by Roxborough. Now your complaint is "ADDITIONAL Intermodulation near major market antenna farms caused by HD?" The problems are well documented in these areas "IN ANALOG" in filings by 100.3 in Media when they eventually got permission to move to Roxborough. The addition of HD hardly causes or even significantly aggravates these issues. What's next, the electric bill is too high? Oh wait, you've already been down that road as well.

So much for the "a few DXers are the only ones affected" HD promoter mantra, so often falsely peddled here.

Yeah that whole "intermod Near the major market antenna farm" thing really seals it." I have to say, Supe' this is the first time I've heard this one...

Time and time again we see this "Shotgun" approach by certain individuals. The modus operendi is "Post a bunch of junk" and hope no one calls you on it. When busted, they disappear for a few days or divert the subject. This happened elsewhere on this board very recently. To save some folks embarrasment, I'll not link to it, but it's in the "Lastest to cut Staff - Ibiquity," thread. It appears it's OK to post any kind of nonesense as long as it supports the "I don't like it" cause.

Clouseau

 

[Play Freebird]

Now your complaint is "ADDITIONAL Intermodulation near major market antenna farms caused by HD?" The problems are well documented in these areas "IN ANALOG" in filings by 100.3 in Media when they eventually got permission to move to Roxborough.

Key words here are "eventually got permission" as I've highlighted in the quote above. It took over six years for the FCC to authorize the Roxborough move (which has proven quite effective in resolving the problem) however, the Commission steadfastly refused to grant the CP to the Media station's locally-based independent licensee who requested it in 1994. Yet there was no hesitation after major group Radio One bought the station in 2000; the CP was granted in December of that year.

This is one reason why I'm highly doubtful that new FM IBOC interference complaints resulting from the proposed power increase can be resolved by the Media Bureau on a "case-by-case basis". The large group owners may get a satisfactory response, but the independents are likely to be ignored once again.

The addition of HD hardly causes or even significantly aggravates these issues.

Please cite any tests proving the problem will not be aggravated at -10 dB injection on typical receivers.

 

[clouseau]

Key words here are "eventually got permission" as I've highlighted in the quote above. It took over six years for the FCC to authorize the Roxborough move (which has proven quite effective in resolving the problem) however, the Commission steadfastly refused to grant the CP to the Media station's locally-based independent licensee who requested it in 1994. Yet there was no hesitation after major group Radio One bought the station in 2000; the CP was granted in December of that year.

It's clear the FCC has continued to loosen their resistance to things like short spacing. Short spacing to Z-100 in NYC was the reall issue here IIRC. Certainly not intermod,(Which of course YOU dod not claim since it's out there, HD wise.)

This is one reason why I'm highly doubtful that new FM IBOC interference complaints resulting from the proposed power increase can be resolved by the Media Bureau on a "case-by-case basis". The large group owners may get a satisfactory response, but the independents are likely to be ignored once again.

I can see your point, however not doing one because of the other is a little like searching for your missing wallet a block away from where you dropped it, because you looking under a street light where you can see better. The media bureau and it's predecessors have a fairly colorful history of inability to deal with these issues, no doubt, including WABC/KOB and probably dozens to hundreds of others. No arguement there.

Please cite any tests proving the problem will not be aggravated at -10 dB injection on typical receivers.

I have no test results confirming or dispelling -10db aggravating the issue, nor did I claim such. I posted in response to "Try listening anywhere within a couple of miles of a major market antenna farm," <blah balh blah> Based on the -10db increase not yet being approved, this comment by Supe' was clearly made with regards to EXISTING levels. I have heard NOTHING about intermod problems at major market antenna farms.

Good history on the Y-100 thingy, though. I've always thought that a lot of their problem was how the highway actually runs behind a rock wall (relative to Media, PA) and facing all that FM and TV RF so close by.

I wonder if they ever tried a really low power booster in that area. (Couple of watts.) Properly set up, they could probably have gotten a couple of Clicks on the radio and that would have been it as you drove by. Granting that should have been routine. being in the service area.

Clouseau

 

[Play Freebird]

I have no test results confirming or dispelling -10db aggravating the issue, nor did I claim such. I posted in response to "Try listening anywhere within a couple of miles of a major market antenna farm," <blah balh blah> Based on the -10db increase not yet being approved, this comment by Supe' was clearly made with regards to EXISTING levels. I have heard NOTHING about intermod problems at major market antenna farms.

I may have found one near Pinnacle Hill in Rochester, where the upper digital sideband of one station apparently mixes with the second harmonic of the lower sideband of a second station and produces a noisy "2B - A" product in the receiver's front end several MHz up the dial. Scott Fybush is aware of it and we're trying to determine the cause. It's not a serious problem at -20 dB injection, but it could become one if both stations are allowed to increase digital power tenfold.

It's a sad fact of life that most consumer receiver "front ends" don't maintain linearity in strong signal areas. Antenna farms on a remote mountaintop usually don't account for many IM complaints -- but in populated areas, the situation is much different and that's what I'm concerned about.

On the related subject of first-adjacent digital-to-analog interference at -10 dB injection, I recall that you wanted to see a documented case. Here's an example of a spacing situation not uncommon in the northeast -- this poor station is getting clobbered:

http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6520193401