I'm pretty sure there is no prohibition in owning equipment. SCMS, BSW, etc. and many of us engineering guys would be in violation if it wasn't legal to own equipment. The truth is licensed broadcasters would suffer as many of them aren't smart enough to keep spare anything around to save themselves if stuff fails on them.
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Is this legal?
- Thread starter secondchoice
- Start date
I would think just offering to sell this may be grounds for having one's ham license revoked.greg.hahn said:
Kmagrill said:
No, again, *ownership* of transmitting equipment does not require a license in the U.S.. You only need a license if you want to *use* it.
It is not illegal to sell transmitting gear to an unlicensed buyer. It is illegal to sell transmitting gear that is not type-accepted for the service in which it's intended to be used.
(it's easy to prove a law/regulation exists, one can cite it & provide a link. It's a lot harder to prove a regulation *doesn't* exist
)w9wi said:No, again, *ownership* of transmitting equipment does not require a license in the U.S.. You only need a license if you want to *use* it.
It is not illegal to sell transmitting gear to an unlicensed buyer. It is illegal to sell transmitting gear that is not type-accepted for the service in which it's intended to be used.
(it's easy to prove a law/regulation exists, one can cite it & provide a link. It's a lot harder to prove a regulation *doesn't* exist
Okay, so, except for the LPFM service, most transmitting equipment in the US is type verified, which is a self-certification that any manufacturer can easily do. So, let's assume HLLY adds a decal to their transmitters indicating type verification. Does that mean that they could then now legally import and sell these to anyone that wants them?
I think it's the other way around. Low power gear must be type accepted but high power rigs don't require certification...Kmagrill said:w9wi said:No, again, *ownership* of transmitting equipment does not require a license in the U.S.. You only need a license if you want to *use* it.
It is not illegal to sell transmitting gear to an unlicensed buyer. It is illegal to sell transmitting gear that is not type-accepted for the service in which it's intended to be used.
(it's easy to prove a law/regulation exists, one can cite it & provide a link. It's a lot harder to prove a regulation *doesn't* exist
Okay, so, except for the LPFM service, most transmitting equipment in the US is type verified, which is a self-certification that any manufacturer can easily do. So, let's assume HLLY adds a decal to their transmitters indicating type verification. Does that mean that they could then now legally import and sell these to anyone that wants them?
From the FCC website, below is text from Part 15 applying to unlicensed transmissions subject to FCC jurisdiction.
An "intentional radiator" is equipment that is intended to radiate, such as transmitter systems using the AM and FM broadcast bands.
Unlicensed, commercially-built transmitters used on the AM and FM broadcast bands where the FCC has jurisdiction are required to be "certificated."
FCC certification is not a simple process, and most manufacturers contract it out to a lab specializing in such work.
RF
(The text attributes below were added by me.)
_____________
e-CFR Data is current as of March 23, 2012
Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 15—RADIO FREQUENCY DEVICES
Subpart C—Intentional Radiators
§ 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement.
(a) Intentional radiators operated as carrier current systems, devices operated under the provisions of §§15.211, 15.213, and 15.221, and devices operating below 490 kHz in which all emissions are at least 40 dB below the limits in §15.209 shall be verified pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of part 2 of this chapter prior to marketing.
(b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this section and in §15.23 of this part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of this part shall be certificated by the Commission pursuant to the procedures in subpart J of part 2 of this chapter prior to marketing.
(c) For devices such as perimeter protection systems which, in accordance with §15.31(d), are required to be measured at the installation site, each application for certification must be accompanied by a statement indicating that the system has been tested at three installations and found to comply at each installation. Until such time as certification is granted, a given installation of a system that was measured for the submission for certification will be considered to be in compliance with the provisions of this chapter, including the marketing regulations in subpart I of part 2 of this chapter, if tests at that installation show the system to be in compliance with the relevant technical requirements. Similarly, where measurements must be performed on site for equipment subject to verification, a given installation that has been verified to demonstrate compliance with the applicable standards will be considered to be in compliance with the provisions of this chapter, including the marketing regulations in subpart I of part 2 of this chapter.
§ 15.23 Home-built devices.
(a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not marketed, are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of five or less for personal use.
(b) It is recognized that the individual builder of home-built equipment may not possess the means to perform the measurements for determining compliance with the regulations. In this case, the builder is expected to employ good engineering practices to meet the specified technical standards to the greatest extent practicable. The provisions of §15.5 apply to this equipment.
An "intentional radiator" is equipment that is intended to radiate, such as transmitter systems using the AM and FM broadcast bands.
Unlicensed, commercially-built transmitters used on the AM and FM broadcast bands where the FCC has jurisdiction are required to be "certificated."
FCC certification is not a simple process, and most manufacturers contract it out to a lab specializing in such work.
RF
(The text attributes below were added by me.)
_____________
e-CFR Data is current as of March 23, 2012
Title 47: Telecommunication
PART 15—RADIO FREQUENCY DEVICES
Subpart C—Intentional Radiators
§ 15.201 Equipment authorization requirement.
(a) Intentional radiators operated as carrier current systems, devices operated under the provisions of §§15.211, 15.213, and 15.221, and devices operating below 490 kHz in which all emissions are at least 40 dB below the limits in §15.209 shall be verified pursuant to the procedures in Subpart J of part 2 of this chapter prior to marketing.
(b) Except as otherwise exempted in paragraph (c) of this section and in §15.23 of this part, all intentional radiators operating under the provisions of this part shall be certificated by the Commission pursuant to the procedures in subpart J of part 2 of this chapter prior to marketing.
(c) For devices such as perimeter protection systems which, in accordance with §15.31(d), are required to be measured at the installation site, each application for certification must be accompanied by a statement indicating that the system has been tested at three installations and found to comply at each installation. Until such time as certification is granted, a given installation of a system that was measured for the submission for certification will be considered to be in compliance with the provisions of this chapter, including the marketing regulations in subpart I of part 2 of this chapter, if tests at that installation show the system to be in compliance with the relevant technical requirements. Similarly, where measurements must be performed on site for equipment subject to verification, a given installation that has been verified to demonstrate compliance with the applicable standards will be considered to be in compliance with the provisions of this chapter, including the marketing regulations in subpart I of part 2 of this chapter.
§ 15.23 Home-built devices.
(a) Equipment authorization is not required for devices that are not marketed, are not constructed from a kit, and are built in quantities of five or less for personal use.
(b) It is recognized that the individual builder of home-built equipment may not possess the means to perform the measurements for determining compliance with the regulations. In this case, the builder is expected to employ good engineering practices to meet the specified technical standards to the greatest extent practicable. The provisions of §15.5 apply to this equipment.
"Legal" or not; there's no further penalty for not responding to a "LOI" and who knows how the can collect a "NAL"
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db0326/DA-12-446A1.pdf
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db0326/DA-12-446A1.pdf
Certification is required for part 15 and for anything used in the LPFM service, however certification of part 15 devices is different than part 74. Part 74 certification is very similar to verification except that the results must be submitted to the FCC and a registration number received and affixed to the transmitter. Type verification is required for anything used in "real" broadcasting other than LPFM. In verification, the manufacturer affirms that the gear meets FCC specs and affixes a label to that effect on the product, but retains the test data unless asked by the FCC for it. The assumption at the FCC is that part 73 equipment will be properly installed and maintained but that LPFM gear may not be, thus it has to meet a higher standard. Since the HLLY gear can't be considered part 15, it has to be for either LPFM (part 74) or for standard broadcasting (part 73 or part 74). So, can HLLY legally sell type verified equipment, allegedly intended for part 73 service, to anyone? If so, then how does the FCC stop the sale of these devices to pirates. Or do they?
greg.hahn said:
Man, hope he is not that stupid!
w9wi said:Kmagrill said:
No, again, *ownership* of transmitting equipment does not require a license in the U.S.. You only need a license if you want to *use* it.
It is not illegal to sell transmitting gear to an unlicensed buyer. It is illegal to sell transmitting gear that is not type-accepted for the service in which it's intended to be used.
(it's easy to prove a law/regulation exists, one can cite it & provide a link. It's a lot harder to prove a regulation *doesn't* exist
Technically, you can't buy a transmitter without a license, to operate it, Manufacturers were not allowed to sell equipment without proof of same...(late 60's and 70's)> I somehow doubt the regulation was changed, but it's likely a lot harder to enforce. I learned that lesson after giving a slightly broken exciter to a church a long, long time ago...
WOW what a wealth of miss information. Coming from someone who has been in th Biz for 40 years here's the deal:
It is not illegal to own transmitting equipment. If it were museums would be shut down, besides at what point in construction does it BECOME transmitting equipment? wen the last output transister is placed in? otherwise it's just junk
it's not illegal to own transmitting equipment if you " want to use it" as someone said. it IS illegal to USE IT without a license
You can buy any transmitter whether you have CAUSE or not. Owning doesn't necessarly mean you will use it...see museums
Forget about applying for a license in Erie,,you can't just APPLY you have to wait for a WINDOW to open,,about every five years
Last timew I heard Class D was a miximum of 10 watts and no new class D licenses have been issued in decades.
Yes, LPFM is type approved,,,more rigedly than some full power equipment. can't just stick a high power amp on an LPFM and turn the power down to LPFM levels
All full power transmiting equipment excluding ham and part 15 must be type approved.
There's the straight poop guys
It is not illegal to own transmitting equipment. If it were museums would be shut down, besides at what point in construction does it BECOME transmitting equipment? wen the last output transister is placed in? otherwise it's just junk
it's not illegal to own transmitting equipment if you " want to use it" as someone said. it IS illegal to USE IT without a license
You can buy any transmitter whether you have CAUSE or not. Owning doesn't necessarly mean you will use it...see museums
Forget about applying for a license in Erie,,you can't just APPLY you have to wait for a WINDOW to open,,about every five years
Last timew I heard Class D was a miximum of 10 watts and no new class D licenses have been issued in decades.
Yes, LPFM is type approved,,,more rigedly than some full power equipment. can't just stick a high power amp on an LPFM and turn the power down to LPFM levels
All full power transmiting equipment excluding ham and part 15 must be type approved.
There's the straight poop guys
R
RadioPhillyFan
Guest
ellenparks said:
My dream of owning a radio station will have to wait...
isn't the FCC in the Auction Business and not Enforcement?
don't they they Sell the Spectrum and Wild West the Rest?
has AM/FM gone Ham? as in...who cares?
a visit from the FCC? well, like never.
it's all Morse Code to me.
don't they they Sell the Spectrum and Wild West the Rest?
has AM/FM gone Ham? as in...who cares?
a visit from the FCC? well, like never.
it's all Morse Code to me.
These pieces of china junk have been turning up on our version of Ebay here in New Zealand.
Imported by unscrupulous people whose sole mission is to make a dollar or several hundred, as the case has been!
I saw one sell for $549 on auction. The seller probably landed it for less than a quarter of that.
As many will know, LPFM here allows the use of up to 1 watt EIRP without a license - anyone can find an unused frequency (between 87.6 - 88.3 and 107.6 - 107.7) and start transmitting as long as their signal does not interfere with licensed services.
LPFM operators have bought these 'CZH-15' (aka 'Moonraker') devices and used them all over the country.
I've had reports back from various people that they start out ok, but eventually lose power and cease to work.
Some people have tried to get their money back with no success.
When I see the words "professional transmitter" I know immediately it's junk.
'Real' transmitters and exciters don't have volume controls or mic inputs and you know it's nothing more than a toy when it's powered by a wal-wart plug pack.
These units were designed for sending your mp3 player or ipod around the house, not for commercial on-air use.
Imported by unscrupulous people whose sole mission is to make a dollar or several hundred, as the case has been!
I saw one sell for $549 on auction. The seller probably landed it for less than a quarter of that.
As many will know, LPFM here allows the use of up to 1 watt EIRP without a license - anyone can find an unused frequency (between 87.6 - 88.3 and 107.6 - 107.7) and start transmitting as long as their signal does not interfere with licensed services.
LPFM operators have bought these 'CZH-15' (aka 'Moonraker') devices and used them all over the country.
I've had reports back from various people that they start out ok, but eventually lose power and cease to work.
Some people have tried to get their money back with no success.
When I see the words "professional transmitter" I know immediately it's junk.
'Real' transmitters and exciters don't have volume controls or mic inputs and you know it's nothing more than a toy when it's powered by a wal-wart plug pack.
These units were designed for sending your mp3 player or ipod around the house, not for commercial on-air use.
ellenparks said:
I'm sorry to say this, but the above is not quite correct. There is no longer any such thing as type appoval and hasn't been since 1998 when it was replaced by / combined with certification. Here's the R&O that simplified the process in '98.
http://transition.fcc.gov/Bureaus/Engineering_Technology/Orders/1998/fcc98058.txt
Paragraphs 10 and 25 are the most relavent to broadcasting.
Currently, broadcast transmitters are mainly type verified by the manufacturers. No documents are submitted to the FCC and no registration numbers are assigned. It is not necessary to have a certified lab do the testing, though you may choose to do so, of course. A notice of compliance is affixed to the transmitter and the manufacturer is required to produce the test data if asked to do so by the FCC. The only broadcast transmitters that require certification are those for the LPFM service. This rather silly requirement was added as a nod to NAB and NPR who worried that inexperienced LPFM broadcasters would create tons of interference with standard exciters and transmitters. Certification is nearly identical to verification. The transmitter is still tested for compliance however, the test data is then sent to the FCC along with a fee, of course. The FCC or one of their authorized labs, then issues an ID number that must be affixed to each certified transmitter.
When I started in the business in 1978, transmitters were type approved or accepted and you could not buy a transmitter or exciter without giving call letters. It was even that way in Ham radio. Ever tried to order a tranceiver from Ham Radio Outlet or Amateur Radio Supply? They wouldn't sell one to anyone without proof of license because it was illegal. Now, the FCC may not be interpreting the rules that way anymore, but they used to come down on you like a ton of bricks if you sold any intentional radiators without a purpose, regardless of if it was broadcast or ham. The simple and safe way to sell or donate old euipment to an unlicensed party was to just render it inoperative first. I doubt that the wording has changed, though the interpretation might have.
Kmagrill said:
Bologna. :
I bought my first ham transmitter in 1970 from Amateur Electronic Supply in Milwaukee. I did NOT have to prove that I was licensed when I did so, although I did have my Novice ticket at the time. Maybe some dealers required it, but AES did not. There is not, and never has been AFAIK (OK, maybe there was prior to World War II), a Federal requirement that one must be licensed to buy an amateur radio transmitter.
It is, of course, illegal to OPERATE a transmitter without a license, other than under Part 15, but there has never been a rule saying that one must give proof of license before buying one, at least under Part 97. If any dealer does want proof of license, that's their own requirement, not the FCC's, and it's probably to keep CBers from buying them.
Okay, so if it's perfectly legal to sell transmitters to anyone and HLLY (or anyone else) type certifies or type verifies their transmitters, would it be correct to state that there is no way the FCC can stop the importation and sale of these devices to unlicensed people on eBay or via other online shops since these devices cannot be covered under part 15 rules due to their high power?
(sigh)
There are type accepted AND type approved transmitters. Most transmitters are type accepted, essentially self-certified by manufacturer. LPFM stations must have "type-approved" transmitters, unfortunately resulting in LPFM stations using the lowest common denominator type gear since there is little incentive otherwise for major manufacturers to obtain type approval for what is a low-end product.
Although heard that the new Nautel VS-300 was type approved after they changed the design to install an AC line filter....
There is NO prohibition against owning a transmitter--AM/FM or shortwave. I can have a 10 kw FM in my garage--so long as I don't hook it to an antenna. Matter of fact I DO have a 10 kw FM transmitter in my garage. (It's a spare parts source for the Harris 10K I have on the air).
There are type accepted AND type approved transmitters. Most transmitters are type accepted, essentially self-certified by manufacturer. LPFM stations must have "type-approved" transmitters, unfortunately resulting in LPFM stations using the lowest common denominator type gear since there is little incentive otherwise for major manufacturers to obtain type approval for what is a low-end product.
Although heard that the new Nautel VS-300 was type approved after they changed the design to install an AC line filter....
There is NO prohibition against owning a transmitter--AM/FM or shortwave. I can have a 10 kw FM in my garage--so long as I don't hook it to an antenna. Matter of fact I DO have a 10 kw FM transmitter in my garage. (It's a spare parts source for the Harris 10K I have on the air).
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