Is Wired Rhythmic or Mainstream? And will someone in Philly start Movin?

[eGillCVI]

> Wired is not a good station .

I think that statement might be a little bit too general. LOL.

They have definitely lacked consistency--especially recently--and the airstaff clearly needs work. But as far as researching and playing what the demo wants to hear, they seem to do a pretty good job, IMHO. I think their problem has been that they haven't yet made up their mind about just which demo they want to serve!

If they decide to go full-steam ahead with Mainstream CHR, musically, I think they'd have it all over Q102. If one of them becomes a clear winner, it would free up the other to maybe try <a href="http://www.billboardradiomonitor.com/radiomonitor/news/format/ac/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002113943">this new Movin format</a href> that Alan Burns and Associates (consultants) are trying to get going.

I believe very strongly that the Movin format would be more profitable in Philly than any flavor of CHR. And here's why: The format solves the problem Philadelphia radio has had with launching anything that grabs a hold of the 25-44 year old female audience. The problem has been that the Pop/Rock or "Modern" slant bores them but, thus far, everyone's been a bit too skittish to do without it. As most of you will remember, I've suspected all along that a format like Movin would have worked better for Alice, The Point, Mix/Max, and even BEN-FM.

<font size="4">BTW, the Movin format includes no Disco since it concentrates on music from the late 80's on.</font size>

Now that there's an actual Movin format out there, the decision becomes that much more difficult for the folks at Wired: Why bother going ahead with either Mainstream or Rhythmic Hits when they could beat Clear Channel to the punch and launch the potentially more profitable Movin format?

I know that there will be lots of inane postings here from people who don't like anything remotely rhythmic and we'll just have to ignore them since they will offer nothing of substance to a conversation concerning Wired and/or Q102. For those of you who can control yourselves, here's my very serious question: Wouldn't it make sense for Wired to start Movin and leave the kiddie demo to Q102?

 

[robthomas]

"Movin" format??? What the hell is THAT all about? Yea those consultants REALLY came up with that. Does someone want to tell them that the format has been playing in clubs for many years now because people actually like to hear a mix of late 80's/90's/today's rhythmic type music? These consultants have no clue. This is just another nail in the coffin for FM

 

[robthomas]

> > Wired is not a good station .
>
> I think that statement might be a little bit too general.
> LOL.
>
> They have definitely lacked consistency--especially
> recently--and the airstaff clearly needs work. But as far
> as researching and playing what the demo wants to hear, they
> seem to do a pretty good job, IMHO. I think their problem
> has been that they haven't yet made up their mind about just
> which demo they want to serve!
>
> If they decide to go full-steam ahead with Mainstream CHR,
> musically, I think they'd have it all over Q102. If one of
> them becomes a clear winner, it would free up the other to
> maybe try this new Movin format that Alan Burns and
> Associates (consultants) are trying to get going.
>
> I believe very strongly that the Movin format would be more
> profitable in Philly than any flavor of CHR. And here's
> why: The format solves the problem Philadelphia radio has
> had with launching anything that grabs a hold of the 25-44
> year old female audience. The problem has been that the
> Pop/Rock or "Modern" slant bores them but, thus far,
> everyone's been a bit too skittish to do without it. As
> most of you will remember, I've suspected all along that a
> format like Movin would have worked better for Alice, The
> Point, Mix/Max, and even BEN-FM.
>
> BTW, the Movin format includes no Disco since it
> concentrates on music from the late 80's on.
>
> Now that there's an actual Movin format out there, the
> decision becomes that much more difficult for the folks at
> Wired: Why bother going ahead with either Mainstream or
> Rhythmic Hits when they could beat Clear Channel to the
> punch and launch the potentially more profitable Movin
> format?
>
> I know that there will be lots of inane postings here from
> people who don't like anything remotely rhythmic and we'll
> just have to ignore them since they will offer nothing of
> substance to a conversation concerning Wired and/or Q102.
> For those of you who can control yourselves, here's my very
> serious question: Wouldn't it make sense for Wired to start
> Movin and leave the kiddie demo to Q102?
>


I think it would be wise for SOMEONE to do the Movin format. However, if Q102 flipped, it would be bad. I mean would anyone think to tell CC to have Z100 flip? or KIIS flip? No. Q102 is a HERITAGE TOP 40. CC will only flip their bastard children like Sunny and WJJZ. CC Philly has the black/white demo wrapped up with Q102 and Power 99, they would NEVER think to flip either. However, I'd love for Q102 to flip so certain people, who will remain nameless, can lose their jobs.

 

[eGillCVI]

> I think it would be wise for SOMEONE to do the Movin format.
> However, if Q102 flipped, it would be bad. I mean would
> anyone think to tell CC to have Z100 flip? or KIIS flip?
> No. Q102 is a HERITAGE TOP 40. CC will only flip their
> bastard children like Sunny and WJJZ. CC Philly has the
> black/white demo wrapped up with Q102 and Power 99, they
> would NEVER think to flip either. However, I'd love for
> Q102 to flip so certain people, who will remain nameless,
> can lose their jobs.

You don't really believe that heritage means anything in today's radio industry, do you?

Let's assume that CC is interested in making a flip but they're considering only Q102, Sunny, and WJJZ as candidates. Revenue-wise, if Sunny and WJJZ have better bottom-lines (and projected bottom-lines), Q would get the axe faster than you can say "Does heritage mean nothing anymore?" (To which we would all quickly answer, "No, it doesn't.")

It's all about money. Q102 is an expensive station to run and they cater to a young, not-exactly-smashingly-desirable demo. To that, add the competition from Wired and stir vigorously. Pour it into a tall glass over ice and add a sprig of mint. It's called "The Flip." They've been preparing it at Top 40 stations across the country for decades--even at the stations without competition in the market.

And to answer your question: Yes, if the situations were the same in their respective markets, I'd think someone would tell CC to flip Z100 and KIIS too!

 

[eGillCVI]

> "Movin" format??? What the hell is THAT all about? Yea
> those consultants REALLY came up with that. Does someone
> want to tell them that the format has been playing in clubs
> for many years now because people actually like to hear a
> mix of late 80's/90's/today's rhythmic type music? These
> consultants have no clue. This is just another nail in the
> coffin for FM
>

Huh? They've come up with a radio format; what's happening in clubs has no bearing whatsoever. Radio formats have to do with the imaging, the launch, the ad campaigns, etc. It's not strictly the songs. Geesh!

In the neverending quest for the female demographic, this actually might be taking a few nails out of FM's coffins. (They're the nails that were banged in by stations like Max 95.7 and Alice 104.5.)

 

[musicrrrr]

I don't think it will work in Philly...perhaps it will do well in smaller markets, but in a city as diverse as Philly, stations typically need more of a narrow focus to grab a consistent audience. In this town, we have seen numerous stations that try to conquer a couple of decades within their rotation end up with low ratings and/or an eventual flip.

Look at 95.7 and 104.5...their ratings are in the toilet. Jammin' Oldies anyone?

I agree that what is popular in the club scene may not necessarily work on terrestrial radio...at the club you are out scoping your prey, drinks are pouring, and you will dig just about anything that is played...it's all about the party.

When we tune into a radio station...most of us are looking for a particular style or format at a given moment in time. We go to the frequency we believe will most likely be playing it...not a station that may be playing "whatever they feel like."

 

[eGillCVI]

> I don't think it will work in Philly...perhaps it will do
> well in smaller markets, but in a city as diverse as Philly,
> stations typically need more of a narrow focus to grab a
> consistent audience.

<font face="verdana" color="purple">That's an interesting observation because, when I consider my area's large market (Philly) and my area's small market (Atlantic City) and the current radio landscape in both, I get the impression that this format would perform much better in the large market!</font>

> In this town, we have seen numerous
> stations that try to conquer a couple of decades within
> their rotation end up with low ratings and/or an eventual
> flip.

<font face="verdana" color="purple">The problem with what we've seen thus far, I think, is that the music wasn't focused enough. Playing a few decades worth of multiple, unfocused genres always seemed doomed to failure in my mind. It's why WOGL isn't playing as many types of Oldies as so many wish they would. They've found the music that works for them from the decades on which they choose to focus. I think if it's run well enough--and that's a big "if"--Movin' would get enough listeners from B101 and from Q102 & Wired to be profitable. I think the audience exists in Philly. We won't know until someone tries.</font>

> Look at 95.7 and 104.5...their ratings are in the toilet.
> Jammin' Oldies anyone?

<font face="verdana" color="purple">Their 12+ numbers sure aren't that impressive. But those are meaningless. All that matters is how the stations perform with the audiences being targeted by the advertisers the sales departments are calling on.

It's funny that you mention Jammin' Oldies. If Philly's Jammin' Gold had morphed into a Rhythmic AC format like Movin' (which I've heard is what the programmer wanted to do at the time), we may never have been accosted by the tragedy that was Mix 95.7! I always thought Jammin' needed to focus on the rhythmic adult contemporary (including some currents) and drop the disco. The owners, unfortunately for them, had a "better" idea. LOL.</font>

> I agree that what is popular in the club scene may not
> necessarily work on terrestrial radio...at the club you are
> out scoping your prey, drinks are pouring, and you will dig
> just about anything that is played...it's all about the
> party.
>
> When we tune into a radio station...most of us are looking
> for a particular style or format at a given moment in time.
> We go to the frequency we believe will most likely be
> playing it...not a station that may be playing "whatever
> they feel like."

<font face="verdana" color="purple">That's why I really believe BEN-FM and all the other Jacks will ultimately be failures. Lack of focus is never the way to go unless one is listening to his/her own iPod. At least then the unfocused playlist consists of songs its audience definitely wants to hear!

Here's the thing: I'll bet each and every song you hear in the Movin imaging sampler tests through the roof here in Philly with the very desirable target audience. Without the Pop AC and Modern AC thrown in every eight or twelve minutes, there's gonna be a lot less tune-out. I think Max, Mix, Jammin Gold, or The Point would have been smarter to try a format like Movin'. Alice could have done it too but I have a feeling Clear Channel is happier with Sunny than most on this board want to believe.

Anyone who reads my posts knows that I would listen to a format like Movin'. Those who have chosen in the past to attack me because I don't mind rhythmic music will likely say that I'm just sticking up for the format because I like the music. But those level-headed individuals who have always understood where I'm coming from get that I'm looking at the state of the market and I'm talking about this from a business perspective. I really believe this format would be successful in Philadelphia and that's why I hope someone here does it!

The market has the demos for it. And we all know why Philly's been unable to launch a new format to reach it: They've all been sound-alike Modern AC stations, and that obviously doesn't work here. All things considered, I can't fathom how anyone can really believe in his/her gut that Movin' wouldn't work here. Consider this one simple statement: Movin' would reach a more sellable audience than Wired currently does...and it would be less expensive to operate! How is that not a win-win?

Plus...let's face it: What other format on the horizon has a better chance?</font>

 

[CHRles]

The Movin format seems to sound a lot like the current sound of 103.5 KTU, and is likely also influenced by the current sound of 104.3 K-Big Los Angeles, and the Diva stations in New Orleans and Baton Rouge.

 

[Slinky]

> For those of you who can control yourselves, here's my very
> serious question: Wouldn't it make sense for Wired to start
> Movin and leave the kiddie demo to Q102?

I don't know if it's going to be "Movin'", but clearly with Chio coming aboard, Wired is looking for an older, more female demographic. You don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a veteran morning guy, just to keep targeting teens.

The recent additions to the playlist seem to bear this out, assuming that they won't be gone in 3 weeks like the last time Wired flirted with mainstream.

 

[eGillCVI]

This may make me seem clinically retarded but...when/where was the confirmation that Chio is truly coming to Wired?

> I don't know if it's going to be "Movin'", but clearly with
> Chio coming aboard, Wired is looking for an older, more
> female demographic. You don't spend hundreds of thousands
> of dollars on a veteran morning guy, just to keep targeting
> teens.
>
> The recent additions to the playlist seem to bear this out,
> assuming that they won't be gone in 3 weeks like the last
> time Wired flirted with mainstream.
>

 

[eGillCVI]

Musically, I'd compare it more to KTU than K-Big. Although KTU seems a bit more current than Movin' and K-Big plays disco. Also, I don't think movin' includes No Doubt- and Maroon 5-type stuff.

> The Movin format seems to sound a lot like the current sound
> of 103.5 KTU, and is likely also influenced by the current
> sound of 104.3 K-Big Los Angeles, and the Diva stations in
> New Orleans and Baton Rouge.
>

 

[Magnum]

> > Wired is not a good station .
>
> I think that statement might be a little bit too general.
> LOL.
>
> They have definitely lacked consistency--especially
> recently--and the airstaff clearly needs work. But as far
> as researching and playing what the demo wants to hear, they
> seem to do a pretty good job, IMHO. I think their problem
> has been that they haven't yet made up their mind about just
> which demo they want to serve!
>
> If they decide to go full-steam ahead with Mainstream CHR,
> musically, I think they'd have it all over Q102. If one of
> them becomes a clear winner, it would free up the other to
> maybe try this new Movin format that Alan Burns and
> Associates (consultants) are trying to get going.
>
> I believe very strongly that the Movin format would be more
> profitable in Philly than any flavor of CHR. And here's
> why: The format solves the problem Philadelphia radio has
> had with launching anything that grabs a hold of the 25-44
> year old female audience. The problem has been that the
> Pop/Rock or "Modern" slant bores them but, thus far,
> everyone's been a bit too skittish to do without it. As
> most of you will remember, I've suspected all along that a
> format like Movin would have worked better for Alice, The
> Point, Mix/Max, and even BEN-FM.
>
> BTW, the Movin format includes no Disco since it
> concentrates on music from the late 80's on.
>
> Now that there's an actual Movin format out there, the
> decision becomes that much more difficult for the folks at
> Wired: Why bother going ahead with either Mainstream or
> Rhythmic Hits when they could beat Clear Channel to the
> punch and launch the potentially more profitable Movin
> format?
>
> I know that there will be lots of inane postings here from
> people who don't like anything remotely rhythmic and we'll
> just have to ignore them since they will offer nothing of
> substance to a conversation concerning Wired and/or Q102.
> For those of you who can control yourselves, here's my very
> serious question: Wouldn't it make sense for Wired to start
> Movin and leave the kiddie demo to Q102?
>
I've seen comments on this board before that Sunny 104.5 and Smooth Jazz 106.1 cannibalize each other. What if CC tries the Movin' format with one of these stations? Movin' targets the 28-40 year old female with rhythmic music from primarily the late 80s and 90s. This group grew up with rhythmic music during the late 80s. This means the target demographic in Philadelphia grew up with top 40 stations on 106.1,Z106/Electric 106/Eagle 106. So, putting the Movin' format on 106.1 would seem the most "appropriate." Then, CC could shift Sunny 104.5 to a true soft AC format (aka 105.5 WDUV The Dove in Tampa). They would eliminate the disco and a lot of the rhythmic stuff from their playlist, as this would conflict with the new 106.1. This would eliminate the current overlap between 104.5 & 106.1. Thoughts?

 

[eGillCVI]

<font color="purple" face="verdana">I don't think CC would eliminate the disco from Sunny 104.5. It still tests well with the demo and until it stops, it's going to be a part of radio in Philadelphia. Hopefully, it'll stay there actually: If they take it off of Sunny 104.5 to put it on a Movin' format, they'd be doing the format wrong. (Movin' doesn't include disco.)

Other than that point, I think your idea is actually a good one. The question is: Is CC unhappy with WJJZ's performance? It's a cheaply run station and it isn't exactly swirling around the bottom of the bowl in the target demo.

I still think if CC's gonna do it, it'd happen on 102.1. Of their Philly FM's, it's surely the most expensive to operate and it's gotta be the one that grabs the least-desirable audience. Plus, it gets them gracefully out of the fight with Wired.

Thoughts?</font>

> I've seen comments on this board before that Sunny 104.5 and
> Smooth Jazz 106.1 cannibalize each other. What if CC tries
> the Movin' format with one of these stations? Movin' targets
> the 28-40 year old female with rhythmic music from primarily
> the late 80s and 90s. This group grew up with rhythmic music
> during the late 80s. This means the target demographic in
> Philadelphia grew up with top 40 stations on
> 106.1,Z106/Electric 106/Eagle 106. So, putting the Movin'
> format on 106.1 would seem the most "appropriate." Then, CC
> could shift Sunny 104.5 to a true soft AC format (aka 105.5
> WDUV The Dove in Tampa). They would eliminate the disco and
> a lot of the rhythmic stuff from their playlist, as this
> would conflict with the new 106.1. This would eliminate the
> current overlap between 104.5 & 106.1. Thoughts?
>

 

[musicrrrr]

>Plus...let's face it: What other format on the horizon has a better chance?

I agree with most of what you say...but here's the thing. When was the last time Philly launched a NEW format that made the listeners say, "Wow!"

Was it when WMMR signed on and people stopped listening to WIBG or was it when WOGL signed on and people stopped listening to WFIL? Either way, it was a long time ago! And even then, it wasn't as much of a format change as it was a frequency change!

Sure, if it's done correctly it would probably work. But too many formats here AREN'T done correctly, and stations have seen the consequences of misdirected playlists.

Movin' may end up being all the rage, but based on recent radio history in this town, like you say, it's a big "if."

Good topic.

 

[theunseenvoice]

CC will not flip Q102. That is a heritage CHR station that bills well...it is a cash cow for the company. It's not as expensive as you think to operate it. Jocks, every other station has, promotions, every other station has...a CHR is not overly-expensive to operate.

Cheaper to run a CHR that it is to run a News Talker with sports contracts...salaries are far less in CHR than N/T.

Plus, Q102 is BEATING Wired and has in all but 2 books.

> I don't think CC would eliminate the disco from Sunny 104.5.
> It still tests well with the demo and until it stops, it's
> going to be a part of radio in Philadelphia. Hopefully,
> it'll stay there actually: If they take it off of Sunny
> 104.5 to put it on a Movin' format, they'd be doing the
> format wrong. (Movin' doesn't include disco.)
>
> Other than that point, I think your idea is actually a good
> one. The question is: Is CC unhappy with WJJZ's
> performance? It's a cheaply run station and it isn't
> exactly swirling around the bottom of the bowl in the target
> demo.
>
> I still think if CC's gonna do it, it'd happen on 102.1. Of
> their Philly FM's, it's surely the most expensive to operate
> and it's gotta be the one that grabs the least-desirable
> audience. Plus, it gets them gracefully out of the fight
> with Wired.
>
> Thoughts?

 

[Wil]

>
> I still think if CC's gonna do it, it'd happen on 102.1. Of
> their Philly FM's, it's surely the most expensive to operate
> and it's gotta be the one that grabs the least-desirable
> audience. Plus, it gets them gracefully out of the fight
> with Wired.
>
> Thoughts?

Do you think Q fears WIRED? t seems like WIRED is ready to put all their chips on Chio pulling in a ton of new listeners in the morning, and then trying to maintain them with their tweaked "Q-like" sound. I know I'm taking the cowards way out here, but I wouldn't be shocked if it worked, and I also wouldn't be shocked if Chio doesn't produce an audience, and WIRED really tanks.

If WIRED does begin to chip away at Q's audience then Q would seem the logical choice for some sort of format change though.

 

[eGillCVI]

I don't know if I think they fear them exactly. I mean, surely CC isn't that worried because they'd just switch it to something else. I'm sure the people who work at Q102 aren't thrilled with the competition... But they've had no competition since, like 1993 or something. It's about time.

I don't know what I think of Chio's chances for success at WIRED. (I haven't even read anything saying that he's really going there.) I don't think he's that terribly entertaining. In fact, I think he's pretty bland. (Just my opinion.)

QUESTIONS: Were his Q102 numbers strong? And if so, were they strong with the kids or with the adult females?


> >
> > I still think if CC's gonna do it, it'd happen on 102.1.
> Of
> > their Philly FM's, it's surely the most expensive to
> operate
> > and it's gotta be the one that grabs the least-desirable
> > audience. Plus, it gets them gracefully out of the fight
> > with Wired.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> Do you think Q fears WIRED? t seems like WIRED is ready to
> put all their chips on Chio pulling in a ton of new
> listeners in the morning, and then trying to maintain them
> with their tweaked "Q-like" sound. I know I'm taking the
> cowards way out here, but I wouldn't be shocked if it
> worked, and I also wouldn't be shocked if Chio doesn't
> produce an audience, and WIRED really tanks.
>
> If WIRED does begin to chip away at Q's audience then Q
> would seem the logical choice for some sort of format change
> though.
>

 

[eGillCVI]

Heritage! How could I have forgotten about the heritage? Silly me! Never mind everybody. My bad!

> CC will not flip Q102. That is a heritage CHR station that
> bills well...it is a cash cow for the company. It's not as
> expensive as you think to operate it. Jocks, every other
> station has, promotions, every other station has...a CHR is
> not overly-expensive to operate.
>
> Cheaper to run a CHR that it is to run a News Talker with
> sports contracts...salaries are far less in CHR than N/T.
>
> Plus, Q102 is BEATING Wired and has in all but 2 books.
>
> > I don't think CC would eliminate the disco from Sunny
> 104.5.
> > It still tests well with the demo and until it stops,
> it's
> > going to be a part of radio in Philadelphia. Hopefully,
> > it'll stay there actually: If they take it off of Sunny
> > 104.5 to put it on a Movin' format, they'd be doing the
> > format wrong. (Movin' doesn't include disco.)
> >
> > Other than that point, I think your idea is actually a
> good
> > one. The question is: Is CC unhappy with WJJZ's
> > performance? It's a cheaply run station and it isn't
> > exactly swirling around the bottom of the bowl in the
> target
> > demo.
> >
> > I still think if CC's gonna do it, it'd happen on 102.1.
> Of
> > their Philly FM's, it's surely the most expensive to
> operate
> > and it's gotta be the one that grabs the least-desirable
> > audience. Plus, it gets them gracefully out of the fight
> > with Wired.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>

 

[Wil]

>
> I don't know what I think of Chio's chances for success at
> WIRED. (I haven't even read anything saying that he's
> really going there.) I don't think he's that terribly
> entertaining. In fact, I think he's pretty bland. (Just my
> opinion.)
>
> QUESTIONS: Were his Q102 numbers strong? And if so, were
> they strong with the kids or with the adult females?

Using your words above, Chio's ratings were also kind of "bland". He wasn't lighting the world on fire, but he wasn't at the bottom of the pack either. It is definitely a step up for WIRED's morning (if indeed he is going there), but the steps at WIRED are probably small ones.

As far demographics, I'm not sure, but I'd be leaning toward the kids. "Morning Justice" probably has better indicators on that one.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by Wil on 03/09/06 07:21 PM.</FONT></P>