We haven't seen a post about WKBW okay WWKB for a long time, isn't it time? (ducking) ;D
Okay then how about WEBR? WADV? WWOL maybe?
Okay then how about WEBR? WADV? WWOL maybe?
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Isn't It Time?
- Thread starter Mike Sheridan
- Start date
S
SSSKub
Guest
More proof this board is getting boring...
At this point, radio is in such big trouble as an industry that the only think 'KB could do that would spark any response is to "pull a Citadel" and turn the transmitter off. Rumor has it that they're running at half power anyway.
I guess that's the difference between Citadel and Entercom - half a loaf is better than none.
I guess that's the difference between Citadel and Entercom - half a loaf is better than none.
KB's been having problems with mysterious low field strength for years. I wonder if there are antenna problems. The reduced power situation may not be voluntary. Over here south of Rochester, 1520's signal has been weak for a long time, especially compared with its booming Western New York signal of yore.
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Bob1370
Guest
If KB's reach is deteriorating, and it's not just a transmitter problem, could it have anything to do with the complications inherent in sharing the site with WGR? I remember visiting the site on Big Tree Rd. when I worked at KB...WGR engineer Pete Bevorka, who gave me a tour while he was taking a short break from tweaking the 'GR rig, showed me all the filters, traps, etc. that kept the two stations from feeding back on and messing up each other's signals. Complicated to my eyes. Must have been a real bear to keep the whole thing happy after dark when all six towers on the site were live, one of them (the southwest one, IIRC) handling live RF on two channels at once, with all of them having to be properly tuned/detuned to make sure they didn't mess up the two stations' radiating patterns. 'GR sounds fine, and gets out as well as ever. But KB sure does sound weaker to the east/northeast, where its main lobe is supposed to go, than it did back in the day. I wonder (as a technical layman) if sharing the site causes any complications for KB, especially as that 68 year old site ages? The towers date back to 1941 when that plant first came on line, and the ground system--well, who knows? It was in good shape in 1977, CapCities (which owned the site back then, and leased space to GR) meticulously maintained everything they operated...but CapCities/ABC left the market over 20 years ago. Does the Entercom cluster's #1 cash cow, WBEN, get most of the TLC now, with WGR, another profit center, getting most of what's left of the AM stations' tech budget after 'BEN has been taken care of? The tech experts on this board may think I'm asking dumb questions, and they could be right, but a complicated site is always tricky to keep at its best, and if one of the stations on that site's getting favored over the other in terms of upkeep, wouldn't that have some effect?
It occurs to me, since Entercom probably owns the old WHLD site on Grand Island (which is also the TL for their Kiss 98.5 FM), and there's no AM signal coming from it now, that they might want to think about relocating KB there if 1520 is a significant part of their long term strategic plan. They could easily run 50 kW DA-1 on a two or three tower pattern from that site to give them the same kind of optimum coverage they used to get on Big Tree Road. Could get out even better. Maybe the existing two towers on the site left over from WHLD might work. Or they might put in a couple of new 400-footers. The land's there, the building's there, the site's properly zoned, maybe even the ground system is OK...
It occurs to me, since Entercom probably owns the old WHLD site on Grand Island (which is also the TL for their Kiss 98.5 FM), and there's no AM signal coming from it now, that they might want to think about relocating KB there if 1520 is a significant part of their long term strategic plan. They could easily run 50 kW DA-1 on a two or three tower pattern from that site to give them the same kind of optimum coverage they used to get on Big Tree Road. Could get out even better. Maybe the existing two towers on the site left over from WHLD might work. Or they might put in a couple of new 400-footers. The land's there, the building's there, the site's properly zoned, maybe even the ground system is OK...
A
alw
Guest
I wonder if KB's ground system is deteriorating and is way to expensive to replace.
Not that simple, Bob1370. KB's site dates to 1941, right after the NARBA reshuffle that allowed 'em to go 50kw in the first place. If they relocate the transmitter they surrender all the protections they've enjoyed since the 1941 authorization, which all get turned AGAINST them. IOW all the co-channel and adjacents which have to protect the original 1520 would now have to be protected BY KB instead of the other way around. And the 25% interference-ratcheting new-authorization rule would also come into play. Remember what happened when the former WHEC/WAXC 1460 relo'ed here in Henrietta? The best they could get was 3800 watts, a decrease of 1200 from their former authorization.
I haven't done a nighttime study but it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that a relocated 1520 could no longer get 50kw at night. Maybe 10kw or less. And I'd bet, a lot more towers.
Besides, even if they could just plunk a 3-tower 50kw DA-1 at a new site, you'd be talking about over a mil in new construction costs, conservatively. Getting a good consulting engineer in there and fixing whatever the efficiency-loss problem is - ground system or whatever - would be far cheaper. I suspect Entercom just isn't interested in dumping a lot into a facility that gets less than a 1.0 share.
As far as your comments about the shared site with WGR - only one tower in the array is common to both stations. And GR and KB are far removed from each other in frequency. The single diplexed tower shouldn't be a daunting engineering challenge. As far as antiresonating traps go, they're very common. In our neck of the woods, 1370 and 1280 have traps in each other's arrays, and so did 1460 before they moved over by West Henrietta Road. Once those traps are installed and adjusted they shouldn't give any trouble unless there's lightning damage.
I haven't done a nighttime study but it wouldn't surprise me a bit to learn that a relocated 1520 could no longer get 50kw at night. Maybe 10kw or less. And I'd bet, a lot more towers.
Besides, even if they could just plunk a 3-tower 50kw DA-1 at a new site, you'd be talking about over a mil in new construction costs, conservatively. Getting a good consulting engineer in there and fixing whatever the efficiency-loss problem is - ground system or whatever - would be far cheaper. I suspect Entercom just isn't interested in dumping a lot into a facility that gets less than a 1.0 share.
As far as your comments about the shared site with WGR - only one tower in the array is common to both stations. And GR and KB are far removed from each other in frequency. The single diplexed tower shouldn't be a daunting engineering challenge. As far as antiresonating traps go, they're very common. In our neck of the woods, 1370 and 1280 have traps in each other's arrays, and so did 1460 before they moved over by West Henrietta Road. Once those traps are installed and adjusted they shouldn't give any trouble unless there's lightning damage.
Savage said:
It's actually more complicated than that, I think. A relocated KB would still be a class A facility, protected to the extent that the current KB on Big Tree is protected.
What changes with a move is that ratcheting mess - KB would have to reduce the amount of interference it creates to other stations at night, not by 25% but by 10%. Because KB figures into so many interference scenarios, the hit would be pretty significant. My off-the-cuff guess is that you'd end up with 35-40 kW from three towers, or maybe still 50 kW into a greater number of towers with a tighter directional pattern.
I don't think Grand Island is where KB wants to be at night; that null toward Oklahoma City would reduce radiation over the south towns to a significant degree. If anything, it probably wants to be even further to the southwest. Anyone for Irving?
As for WHIC's move here in Rochester, the drop from 5 kW to 3.7 kW was relatively insignificant - it was offset by a more efficient array and by a ground system that actually exists. What's more, the new site - even with ratcheting toward Harrisburg, Columbus and the other 1460s - still manages to cover more of the market than the old one did. It was a real win...for everyone except fans of beautiful old self-supporting towers...
I stand corrected. I always get confused by that Class A, "1-B" designation.
Still and all: KB is a 70-year old authorization. A whole boatload of stations have gone on the air which would have to be factored into a relocated 1520's allocation study - I'll bet, several hundred.
I've had these kinds of conversations with consulting engineers many times before. I can just hear the cheerful voice at the other end of the phone: "GREAT news! Looks like we can keep 50kw daytime!!"
(Pause for this to sink in. You ask the obvious questions....)
Continuing with the chipper delivery: "Yep, 50kw, 6 towers will work JUST FINE daytime. And at night it looks like eight towers, 9kw will fit nicely!"
Upshot: Entercom, fix what you've got.
Still and all: KB is a 70-year old authorization. A whole boatload of stations have gone on the air which would have to be factored into a relocated 1520's allocation study - I'll bet, several hundred.
I've had these kinds of conversations with consulting engineers many times before. I can just hear the cheerful voice at the other end of the phone: "GREAT news! Looks like we can keep 50kw daytime!!"
(Pause for this to sink in. You ask the obvious questions....)
Continuing with the chipper delivery: "Yep, 50kw, 6 towers will work JUST FINE daytime. And at night it looks like eight towers, 9kw will fit nicely!"
Upshot: Entercom, fix what you've got.
Can I ask a loaded question? Thank you! Besides protecting the grandfathered signal (at what cost?) What is happening at WWKB - either programming or otherwise, that warrants maintaining the flamethrowing 50kw status? It HAD a purpose in the past, but aren't we at "bygones" by now? (maybe that's what the brilliant minds carrying the purses are thinking?) That's all.
It's not easy to maintain a diplexed directional rig radiating RF at opposite ends of the band. Could be economics plays a role in whatever's happening at the Big Tree Road WWKB-WGR site. Noticed that taggers have left their marks on the building. Punks! Need to get Dirty Harry out there, "get off my lawn!"
Wow, great posts all. It just goes to show the calibre of folks here. Hats off to all of you!
Bob 1370 I suspect the ground system might need to be redone. Seems like this would help WGR as well as WWKB. Living just 2 miles from the transmitter we got KB on everything back in the '60s. KB came in on the stereo, most radios received the station around 640, and sometimes on poor radios the signal was very distorted on 1520 so we went to 640.
I remember seeing the plant at a distance in the early days when the transmission lines were all above ground. At some point in the '70's maybe, new lines were buried.
On the very common 2 transistor radios KB came in on about 2/3 of the dial and WGR on 1/3.
I have seen lots of transmitter sites (not as many as Scott) I still have a special fondness for the Big Tree Road towers of power. It would be great if somehow there was a regional format that could be profitable for KB and take advantage of the 50KW.
Bob 1370 I suspect the ground system might need to be redone. Seems like this would help WGR as well as WWKB. Living just 2 miles from the transmitter we got KB on everything back in the '60s. KB came in on the stereo, most radios received the station around 640, and sometimes on poor radios the signal was very distorted on 1520 so we went to 640.
I remember seeing the plant at a distance in the early days when the transmission lines were all above ground. At some point in the '70's maybe, new lines were buried.
On the very common 2 transistor radios KB came in on about 2/3 of the dial and WGR on 1/3.
I have seen lots of transmitter sites (not as many as Scott) I still have a special fondness for the Big Tree Road towers of power. It would be great if somehow there was a regional format that could be profitable for KB and take advantage of the 50KW.
JimPastrick said:
As a kid we were afraid to go near the place. There were rumors of closed circuit TV cameras around the place and we didn't want to get in trouble! Most of the sites I have seen have a fence all around, WBT certainly does. I guess it's only a matter of time before a fence goes up around the Big Tree Road site.
Entercom just fired the night talker at their cash cow, WBEN. Maybe they'll use the money to buy a new ground system at the WWKB-WGR transmitter site. Or a fence. Decisions, decisions. Don't count on either. Was a time when the Big Tree Road transmitter site was manned by an engineer at least eight hours a day. That was when the AM band was thriving and broadcasting companies served the public interest, convenience and necessity; a time when a share of a broadcasting company stock was worth more than the price of a Happy Meal at Mickey D's.
IIRC - I worked at KB in 1986, just before putting (the new) WYSL on the air - the ground system was re-done in the late 70s or early 80s, when the 230-ohm 6-wire open feeders were removed, and buried Heliax replaced both the old open-wire feed and pressurized air hard-line sampling system. I seem to recall new LTUs were installed at that time too.
I remember pretty clearly that the LTUs at KB's towers were definitely not 1941-vintage. They had new-style Delta toroid antenna ammeters.
Tom Atkins or Dan Gurzynski can confirm or refute this easily. Or any current Entercom engineer.
I remember pretty clearly that the LTUs at KB's towers were definitely not 1941-vintage. They had new-style Delta toroid antenna ammeters.
Tom Atkins or Dan Gurzynski can confirm or refute this easily. Or any current Entercom engineer.
Quote Mike Sheridan:
"Living just 2 miles from the transmitter we got KB on everything back in the '60s. KB came in on the stereo, most radios received the station around 640, and sometimes on poor radios the signal was very distorted on 1520 so we went to 640."
Brings back memories. I grew about 30mi northeast of WPTR-Albany (The Mighty 1540) and it was easily received at 630Khz on the basic All-American 5-tube radios of the day. Dial location of the image signal was right next to the old Conelrad marker.
"Living just 2 miles from the transmitter we got KB on everything back in the '60s. KB came in on the stereo, most radios received the station around 640, and sometimes on poor radios the signal was very distorted on 1520 so we went to 640."
Brings back memories. I grew about 30mi northeast of WPTR-Albany (The Mighty 1540) and it was easily received at 630Khz on the basic All-American 5-tube radios of the day. Dial location of the image signal was right next to the old Conelrad marker.
Getting back to the original question...
Should the FCC change the power allocation for frequencies because the current owner chooses to ignore the potential of a signal? The fault is not in the allocation for 'KB, the fault is in the owner. Owners come and go. Frequency and power allocations span generations.
There are people in Rochester that covet the 'KB signal. Rochester's AM spectrum is not as robust as Buffalo's. Once again, should an essentially permanent change be made because of the actions of the current owner?
Now, if the question is about the viability of AM radio in general, that's an entirely different discussion, and probably belongs on a national board, not a regional one.
Should the FCC change the power allocation for frequencies because the current owner chooses to ignore the potential of a signal? The fault is not in the allocation for 'KB, the fault is in the owner. Owners come and go. Frequency and power allocations span generations.
There are people in Rochester that covet the 'KB signal. Rochester's AM spectrum is not as robust as Buffalo's. Once again, should an essentially permanent change be made because of the actions of the current owner?
Now, if the question is about the viability of AM radio in general, that's an entirely different discussion, and probably belongs on a national board, not a regional one.
SirRoxalot said:
If anybody in Rochester coveted the class A 1520 allocation enough to make it worth their while to make Entercom a reasonable offer - and to buy the land needed for a three-tower array, and to build that array, and to do the significant amount of engineering needed to carve out a reasonable daytime signal for that new Rochester 1520, I'm sure Entercom would entertain that reasonable offer. (After all, if their goal for the last decade has been to keep 1520 from challenging the dominance of 930 and 550, that goal is as easily met by moving it out of town as by keeping it on life support in Buffalo.)
Contrary to my esteemed colleague Bob1370, though, I think the allocations challenges are significant enough, and the return on investment low enough, that it's not likely to happen.
I wonder if it wouldn't be more profitable (or at least if it mightn't have been more profitable before the market crashed) for a 1520 daytimer near a much bigger market - say, WTHE Mineola - to make that "offer they couldn't refuse" in order to downgrade KB to class B and secure a night signal over New York City.
We've seen that happen with other high-dial pairs, like KGA 1510 Spokane, which was purchased by the owner of a daytimer in the San Francisco market in order to do a class B downgrade and get a night signal over San Francisco.
Don't give Farid any more ideas on how to screw up radio...
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