It seems KFWB continues to sink

[Deluge]

0.6 in L.A. and a consistent 0.2 in I.E. Are they better off with nobody listening to the syndication, or are they still better off without news and a 1.2 share? with a KNX 3-3.2?

CBS obviously made a huge mistake with the switch, unless they have to dump the station, in which case if they were to sell, would be pretty much for next to nothing.

 

[david]

0.6 in L.A. and a consistent 0.2 in I.E. Are they better off with nobody listening to the syndication, or are they still better off without news and a 1.2 share? with a KNX 3-3.2?

CBS obviously made a huge mistake with the switch, unless they have to dump the station, in which case if they were to sell, would be pretty much for next to nothing.

Technically CBS did already "dump" the station, by putting it into a trust. I would love to own this station, and if I did it would be easy to fix as it's a shame that the obvious steps have not being taken -- model it after KGO in San Francisco, which provides local NewsTalk without all the fluff.

For example, Penny & Phil in the morning are local (good) but way too saccharine sweet (bad).
Laura Ingraham has not been a success in this market, and having her on tape delay is even worse. I would have a local host aired live from 9a to noon, but at the very least, move Michael Smerconish to this time period so that he can air live.
Dr. Laura at noon - I hear she's pulling in decent numbers, so probably would leave her there, but I would eliminate her 3p to 4p repeat hour and have
Maggie & Michael air live from 3p to 7p. I worked with Michael back in the day and he was a good and serious street reporter. Too bad he is having to inject saccharine into his anchoring now. This is a prime drive time period, so I would program more live interviews and call-ins with notable local news-makers during the 4 hour block of Maggie & Michael.

I have not seen the numbers for Dave Ramsey, but if they are not strong, I would switch him to weekends thus opening up 7p to 3a for local and syndicated talk. One of my favorites is John Rothman on KGO from 10p to 1a who covers mostly national and foreign topics on his show and would be a wonderful pick-up for KFWB. He is not syndicated, so it would be an SFO / LA show only.

Also, I think that adding the Clippers was a mistake. If they are going to program some sports play by play, then by all means make it the Angels, who they carried last year. Baseball is the best suited professional sport to play by play on the radio, and typically does OK for its radio partners, despite this being the era of having all games also available on TV.

 

[davideduardo]

Technically CBS did already "dump" the station, by putting it into a trust. I would love to own this station, and if I did it would be easy to fix as it's a shame that the obvious steps have not being taken -- model it after KGO in San Francisco, which provides local NewsTalk without all the fluff.

They don't have the signal to do that. The 5 mv/m (which is not enough in many parts of LA) covers about 20% less people than even KABC, and 50% less people than KFI.

KGO has been a fixture for 5 decades in the Bay Area; there is not enough AM listening in LA to construct a new station.

 

[davideduardo]

CBS obviously made a huge mistake with the switch, unless they have to dump the station, in which case if they were to sell, would be pretty much for next to nothing.

They made a brilliant move. Neither KNX nor KFWB were getting on lots of buys as they both ranked below a 2 share 12+... now, with most of the audience consolidated on KNX, the station ranks well enough to get on lots of buys.

KFWB is not a good enough signal for today's LA MSA. It has to be sold, eventually, and by making sure that KNX kept the good format and the good numbers, they didn't really reduce the sale price, since most AM sales are for conversion to ethnic or brokered stuff, and the price is really the stick value. Maybe $25 to $30 million for that one (Remember, 1650 went for over $30 million when the economy was better, and that was a stick...they dropped the format and went to a Korean langauge format).

 

[david]

They don't have the signal to do that. The 5 mv/m (which is not enough in many parts of LA) covers about 20% less people than even KABC, and 50% less people than KFI.

KGO has been a fixture for 5 decades in the Bay Area; there is not enough AM listening in LA to construct a new station.

David...you've made these points before, and they have been countered by others. First, KFWB's stick is in an ideal location (next to downtown on the edge of East LA, co-located with KLAC) to cover a large part of the metro area with the limited 5K it puts out. You yourself stated that it has 80% the potential of the much lower on the dial located KABC and 790 was a dominant station in this market 20 years ago, a time when the population spread across the Southland was already very extensive. So 5K stations like KFWB and KTLK and KABC do have the signal reach into enough of the market IF their programming is compelling.

Regarding KGO's legacy, I am stunned you would say that given with your resume (that you often bring up about how you have launched stations in markets across North and South America). 5 decades ago KGO was a newly launched product. Just as the WSJ wrote the other day how P&G is planning on rolling out many new products this year, there is always room for innovation and new products, services, concepts, programs, and formats.

Lastly, in a market this size there is the reach, and the talent, and the monetization (ad revenue) available, especially for a station like 980 that is not servicing a debt related to its acquisition.

 

[nmoore6676]

They don't have the signal to do that. The 5 mv/m (which is not enough in many parts of LA) covers about 20% less people than even KABC, and 50% less people than KFI.

KGO has been a fixture for 5 decades in the Bay Area; there is not enough AM listening in LA to construct a new station.

David...you've made these points before, and they have been countered by others. First, KFWB's stick is in an ideal location (next to downtown on the edge of East LA, co-located with KLAC) to cover a large part of the metro area with the limited 5K it puts out. You yourself stated that it has 80% the potential of the much lower on the dial located KABC and 790 was a dominant station in this market 20 years ago, a time when the population spread across the Southland was already very extensive. So 5K stations like KFWB and KTLK and KABC do have the signal reach into enough of the market IF their programming is compelling.

My experience when I lived there, in North Hollywood, was that at my location in the neighborhood around Laurel and Coldwater Canyon that KFWB was not as listenable a signal as compared to KABC, or their co site partner KLAC. Of course my best reception was KGIL and KSPN with KFI, KRLA, and KNX right behind. I do not have signal readings but empirically, in my experience, KFWB does not have the punch of the other 5KW's in LA. Most of the time I got KHJ fairly strongly as well, I had several computers running and associated network gear so I was in a noisy location but I also had problems getting KFWB outdoors at times too.

When KFWB was all news I generally preferred them to KNX so I would have listened but for the interference which became annoying. So I support David's point on KFWB's coverage. Maybe Saul Levine can acquire it to expand his Retro 1260 coverage, KGIL is not strong at all in East LA or downtown so it could fill some holes for him but realistically probably some kind of ethnic or niche format is most likely.

 

[davideduardo]

David...you've made these points before, and they have been countered by others

Countered, but none too successfully. My reference is the plotting of diary at-work and at-home listening ZIPs vs. signals. And it shows that there is very little listening in LA outside the 10 mv/m coverage, and most is inside the 15 mv/m.

First, KFWB's stick is in an ideal location (next to downtown on the edge of East LA, co-located with KLAC) to cover a large part of the metro area with the limited 5K it puts out.

For an English talk station, that means most of the signal is wasted over areas of high density ethnic concentration, where the sort of format you describe would get little listening.

You yourself stated that it has 80% the potential of the much lower on the dial located KABC and 790 was a dominant station in this market 20 years ago, a time when the population spread across the Southland was already very extensive. So 5K stations like KFWB and KTLK and KABC do have the signal reach into enough of the market IF their programming is compelling.

The noise level 20 years ago did not include a computer on every desk and every home, dimmers, CFLs and all that stuff in the concentrations we have now. It takes twice the signal, at least, today to overcome intereference that was required 20 years ago.

Regarding KGO's legacy, I am stunned you would say that given with your resume (that you often bring up about how you have launched stations in markets across North and South America). 5 decades ago KGO was a newly launched product.

No, KGO was a facelifted product, a transformation of a tired old network station but one with, then, 60 years of heritage dating back before W.W. I.

Just as the WSJ wrote the other day how P&G is planning on rolling out many new products this year, there is always room for innovation and new products, services, concepts, programs, and formats.

First, P&G is considered great because nearly 50% of their product launches succeed, in a field, package goods, where 75% failure is more common.

Second, P&G is not launching... for example... new oven cleaners because all ovens today are self cleaning, and there is no need for a product that solves a need among an obsolete product category. That's the issue... how many new and successful AM talk formats have been launched in the last decade? With much talk moving to FM, it is fairly certain that the same will happen in LA and who would want to invest in a costly product on an AM... one with deficient coverage?

Lastly, in a market this size there is the reach, and the talent, and the monetization (ad revenue) available, especially for a station like 980 that is not servicing a debt related to its acquisition.

On the debt issue, it depends who buys it eventualy. CBS is not going to spend on a station they most likely can't keep. As to programming and sales, AM talk is dreadfully 55+, with KGO having been as low as 20th in 25-54 in the PPM. There is no way to monetize a new 55+ station. And the under-55's will not go to a new AM... it is tough enough for KFI to get some of them... enough to be around 15th to 18th in 25-54.

 

[davideduardo]

My experience when I lived there, in North Hollywood, was that at my location in the neighborhood around Laurel and Coldwater Canyon that KFWB was not as listenable a signal as compared to KABC, or their co site partner KLAC. Of course my best reception was KGIL and KSPN with KFI, KRLA, and KNX right behind. I do not have signal readings but empirically, in my experience, KFWB does not have the punch of the other 5KW's in LA. Most of the time I got KHJ fairly strongly as well, I had several computers running and associated network gear so I was in a noisy location but I also had problems getting KFWB outdoors at times too.

Your observations are matched by measurements. KABC and KHJ are at transmitter sites with much better ground conductivity, so they get out better... they sit on a liquefaction zone!

KLAC, despite being on foothill rock, is on 570, infinitely better than 980... 5 kw on 570 is about the same as 12 to 15 kw on 980.

Your powers of observation are admirable!

 

[Deluge]

CBS obviously made a huge mistake with the switch, unless they have to dump the station, in which case if they were to sell, would be pretty much for next to nothing.

They made a brilliant move. Neither KNX nor KFWB were getting on lots of buys as they both ranked below a 2 share 12+... now, with most of the audience consolidated on KNX, the station ranks well enough to get on lots of buys.

KFWB is not a good enough signal for today's LA MSA. It has to be sold, eventually, and by making sure that KNX kept the good format and the good numbers, they didn't really reduce the sale price, since most AM sales are for conversion to ethnic or brokered stuff, and the price is really the stick value. Maybe $25 to $30 million for that one (Remember, 1650 went for over $30 million when the economy was better, and that was a stick...they dropped the format and went to a Korean langauge format).

I still don't see how the move they made with KFWB could be considered a good move.

You have a station KNX now hovering around a 3, with KFWB consistently well under a 1, whereas when both were broadcasting on similar formats albeit more expensive ones, each stations ratings were performing at a relatively respectable pace, it seems now that even the strong signaled KNX is losing the ratings edge it had in the switch's inception, which has to be discouraging to CBS. KFWB news garnered a lot more listener attention than the current talk format especially with cume factored in, even with the weak signal, which i can also attest to in many of the canyons is tough to attain, KFWB was maintaining a 1.3-1.5 prior to the switch, and with their signal that should be considered tremendous performance.

In these days of monthly PPM and PD's constantly on edge, ratings slips like KFWB's and now apparently KNX's semi fledging have to be concerning to say the least, and I do believe CBS is kicking themselves for the move they made at KFWB

 

[davideduardo]

In these days of monthly PPM and PD's constantly on edge, ratings slips like KFWB's and now apparently KNX's semi fledging have to be concerning to say the least, and I do believe CBS is kicking themselves for the move they made at KFWB

KFWB is in a blind trust, not run by CBS. Unless something major changes, they have to sell it. CBS has gotten it out of competition with KNX, and KNX is doing very well, compared to the past in PPM, against 25-54. They built up KNX, got KFWB out of competion with it, and are ready for the sale whenever it is forced to happen.

 

[Lopaka]

KFWB seems like a perfect candidate for a Spanish language station, only the format needs to be decided. Deportes, noticias, la religion, conversacion and many types of music could all work. Its a natural, it seems inevitable. How could it fail?

 

[Michael Rivers Kramer]

KFWB seems like a perfect candidate for a Spanish language station, only the format needs to be decided. Deportes, noticias, la religion, conversacion and many types of music could all work. Its a natural, it seems inevitable. How could it fail?

Many Spanish language broadcasters have been unloading stations.

Besides, LA is already served with ESPN Deportes 1330 KWKW, Talk KTNQ AM 1020, (Religion) Radio Zion KBLA 1580 and La Nueva Vida 1390 KLTX. The latter has a substandard signal. There's also W Radio out if Tijuana on 690, but that has a barely usable signal in LA as well.

David Eduardo will also point out that there's little interest in News/Talk radio among the Spanish speaking population in LA.

Essentially KFWB has become little more than a stronger programmed version of KRLA with news.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

Addressing the signal problem of KFWB (they're still non-directional one of the few 5kws that are?), I remember Dodgers fans were very very very unhappy about the signal problems when KFWB carried the Boys in Blue's games.

 

[K6JHU]

Maybe it's time for Saul to get out his checkbook. I wonder how some of his AM formats would do on a decent signal.

I suspect, however, that if KFWB is sold, religious is going to be the format answer

 

[ChannelFlipper]

Addressing the signal problem of KFWB (they're still non-directional one of the few 5kws that are?), I remember Dodgers fans were very very very unhappy about the signal problems when KFWB carried the Boys in Blue's games.

Almost as bad as when the Angels first went to 830 AM. How embarassing was it that the home team fans couldn't even pick up the game in the stadium.

 

[davideduardo]

Addressing the signal problem of KFWB (they're still non-directional one of the few 5kws that are?), I remember Dodgers fans were very very very unhappy about the signal problems when KFWB carried the Boys in Blue's games.

Almost as bad as when the Angels first went to 830 AM. How embarassing was it that the home team fans couldn't even pick up the game in the stadium.

That's interesting, because KLAA has about 30 mv/m over Anaheim with the 20 kw night signal.

 

[davideduardo]

Besides, LA is already served with ESPN Deportes 1330 KWKW, Talk KTNQ AM 1020, (Religion) Radio Zion KBLA 1580 and La Nueva Vida 1390 KLTX. The latter has a substandard signal. There's also W Radio out if Tijuana on 690, but that has a barely usable signal in LA as well.

And we had two talk formats on 830, La Voz and Radio Visa and both failed. KKHJ did all news, and failed with a 0.7. KBLA did talk as Radio Unica and failed. Spanish language music on AM will go nowhere.

 

[BMedina]

Besides, LA is already served with ESPN Deportes 1330 KWKW, Talk KTNQ AM 1020, (Religion) Radio Zion KBLA 1580 and La Nueva Vida 1390 KLTX. The latter has a substandard signal. There's also W Radio out if Tijuana on 690, but that has a barely usable signal in LA as well.

And we had two talk formats on 830, La Voz and Radio Visa and both failed. KKHJ did all news, and failed with a 0.7. KBLA did talk as Radio Unica and failed. Spanish language music on AM will go nowhere.

I remember that Spanish talk on then KKHJ 930 AM. Some guy was on at night taking calls from people pretending to have phone sex who was a Howard Stern wannabe on spanish AM radio. ESPN Deportes 1330 & 1220 in the I.E. is not that bad but probably doesn't get any numbers and La Ranchera KHJ is at the bottom of the ratings book. Spanish talk doesn't work in the United States with immigrants like it does with the middle class in Latin America.

 

[davideduardo]

I remember that Spanish talk on then KKHJ 930 AM. Some guy was on at night taking calls from people pretending to have phone sex who was a Howard Stern wannabe on spanish AM radio.

That was Alfredo Contigo on KTNQ, not KHJ.

ESPN Deportes 1330 & 1220 in the I.E. is not that bad but probably doesn't get any numbers and La Ranchera KHJ is at the bottom of the ratings book. Spanish talk doesn't work in the United States with immigrants like it does with the middle class in Latin America.

KTNQ, in the '96 to '99 period got just under 3 shares in 12+ and just under a 4 in 25-54, making it top 10 in LA on quite a few occasions... some of the time beating KFI in that demo.

The all talk format was very expensive, and hard to monetize... all programming was local, and nothing recorded.

 

[BMedina]

I remember that Spanish talk on then KKHJ 930 AM. Some guy was on at night taking calls from people pretending to have phone sex who was a Howard Stern wannabe on spanish AM radio.

That was Alfredo Contigo on KTNQ, not KHJ.

ESPN Deportes 1330 & 1220 in the I.E. is not that bad but probably doesn't get any numbers and La Ranchera KHJ is at the bottom of the ratings book. Spanish talk doesn't work in the United States with immigrants like it does with the middle class in Latin America.

KTNQ, in the '96 to '99 period got just under 3 shares in 12+ and just under a 4 in 25-54, making it top 10 in LA on quite a few occasions... some of the time beating KFI in that demo.

The all talk format was very expensive, and hard to monetize... all programming was local, and nothing recorded.

No it wasn't Alfredo contigo was is now on your station Recuerdo. It was some other guy. He would play a laughtrack like other latino dj's. It was when KKHJ (now KHJ) had a talk format before La Ranchera. I can't remember the guy's name. Anyway I know KTNQ had it's heyday when Humberto Luna was on the station who paved the way for the Cucuys,Piolins and Don Chetos of today.