It's getting quiet here, so..

[Carmine5]

...here a few things I thought I'd pass along courtesy of CGC.

The first is an article by engineer/ham operator Brian Beezley concerning the HD/analog time-align and level issues for stations in his area (So.CA). He does a station by station break down of who is and who isn't in compliance. Some, like the San Diego stations, are way off. Interesting reading.

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/roster.htm

The second item are articles in Radio World which I missed. They concern the migration of AM stations in Mexico to FM. It seems AM stations down there are having a hard time surviving (sounds familiar) and have successfully petitioned the government to allow them to switch to FM with the same equivalent power level/coverage area.

http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0121/t.15848.html
http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0121/t.15849.html

The Mexican government has also given itself until Sept. 15, 2009, to choose a digital radio standard for the country.

C5

 

[Play Freebird]

...here a few things I thought I'd pass along courtesy of CGC.

The first is an article by engineer/ham operator Brian Beezley concerning the HD/analog time-align and level issues for stations in his area (So.CA). He does a station by station break down of who is and who isn't in compliance. Some, like the San Diego stations, are way off. Interesting reading.

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/roster.htm

The drifting delay is a real pesky problem. iBiquity claims to understand the importance of maintaining alignment, as discussed on this page:

http://www.ibiquity.com/broadcasters/quality_implementation/proper_time_and_level_alignment

However, their HD system is designed in such a way that timing errors can creep in and cause a perfectly-aligned hybrid signal to fall apart. As Brian Beezley points out, this remains a widespread problem (even in major markets like LA) despite numerous attempts to correct it over the past few years.

I just received a bulletin from iBiquity discussing a new "fix" which modifies the use of TCP on the link from the "Exporter" to "Exgine", however this could add another 1.5 seconds of delay to the digital signal -- which, of course, will require a corresponding delay in the analog path. Problem is, most processors can't stretch this far without adding memory -- so once again, "it's time to upgrade" -- IF your company will spend the money.

The following documents provide a look at what's required to stabilize this "Rube Goldberg" system. Needless to say, maintaining proper alignment requires ample attention from the engineering staff, but most large radio groups have cut way back in that area. How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/HD%20Networking%20Requirements%20v9(1).pdf

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/HD Networking Best Practices.pdf

 

[rbrucecarter5]

The second item are articles in Radio World which I missed. They concern the migration of AM stations in Mexico to FM. It seems AM stations down there are having a hard time surviving (sounds familiar) and have successfully petitioned the government to allow them to switch to FM with the same equivalent power level/coverage area.

Yea! Hooray! About time --- get them the _____ off our dial at night. I hope they ALL transition to FM and the sooner the better. No more foreign language stuff on our dial at night!

 

[rbrucecarter5]

How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

Assuming the CE is owner of an upscale car - would he really stand for reducing its value by slapping an aftermarket radio in? Gone are the nice steering wheel controls and a lot of other convenience features of the stock radio that comes with the car. If it isn't already so integrated with the car's other systems it is downright impossible to install. And the antenna issues - with the end of the 31 inch whip, how noisy is the antenna signa? The radio that comes stock is designed for it - aftermarket may not - so HD coverage may be WORSE than expected, and a false indication of real coverage.

 

[Savage]

I love the admonishment on the iBiquity tech bulletin about delay and level alignment, advising stations airing live sports coverage to "slowly ramp down digital power and turn off their digital transmitters."

Some "innovation." Its own developer actually disseminates technical bulletins advising the end-users to "turn it off when the going gets tough!"

Somehow I just don't recall Major Armstrong advising FM operators, if the electric bill or maintenance costs get too high, just sign it off. Everybody's listening to AM anyway. Or General Sarnoff telling distributors, go ahead and display Color TV, but don't expect to actually sell the things. Who the hell can afford to buy one??

To HD's nut-bar lack of candor, jury-rigged engineering, high-handed greed and idiotic, self-defeating myopia, now let's add: DEFEATISM.

 

[pocket-radio]

‘The 6 Stages of a Project’. It said that every project goes like this…

1. Enthusiasm.
Somehow the first step was missed….how did that happen?

2. Disillusionment
Yup, broadcasters and sober ex-kool-aid drinkers are already there!

3. Panic
Global, economic meltdowns. HD receiver sales dead in the water.
No golden parachutes or bailouts. Oh my god, hell yes there’s panic!

4. Search for the Guilty
Radio Alliance, broadcasters, Kevin Martin, George Bush, Acorn, members of congress and senate. They all seem guilty of something. We’ll need a government investigation to get to the bottom. Ya right..

5. Punishment of the Innocent
It’s obvious, listeners who spent $200.00 for HD radios that don’t really work as advertised. They're innocent and the real losers in this high level corporate shill.

6. Praise and Enthusiasm for the Uninvolved

That award goes to the FCC & Kevin Martin again! You guys rock!

Read the real post here:
http://mediafix.wordpress.com/

 

[Channel Surf]

How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

A Gone are the nice steering wheel controls and a lot of other convenience features of the stock radio that comes with the car. If it isn't already so integrated with the car's other systems it is downright impossible to install. And the antenna issues - with the end of the 31 inch whip, how noisy is the antenna signa? The radio that comes stock is designed for it - aftermarket may not - so HD coverage may be WORSE than expected, and a false indication of real coverage.

Perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but am I to understand that the standard 31 inch whip antenna is now history?
If so...replaced by what???

 

[KB1OKL]

How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

A Gone are the nice steering wheel controls and a lot of other convenience features of the stock radio that comes with the car. If it isn't already so integrated with the car's other systems it is downright impossible to install. And the antenna issues - with the end of the 31 inch whip, how noisy is the antenna signa? The radio that comes stock is designed for it - aftermarket may not - so HD coverage may be WORSE than expected, and a false indication of real coverage.

Perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but am I to understand that the standard 31 inch whip antenna is now history?
If so...replaced by what???

I bought an 09 Pontiac and it has a very short antenna at the back of the roof, not sure if this is only for Satellite or is also for AM-FM. If you look up antennas for GM cars they say: Antenna, integral, hidden, that's it, no other info.

 

[Carmine5]

...here a few things I thought I'd pass along courtesy of CGC.

The first is an article by engineer/ham operator Brian Beezley concerning the HD/analog time-align and level issues for stations in his area (So.CA). He does a station by station break down of who is and who isn't in compliance. Some, like the San Diego stations, are way off. Interesting reading.

http://ham-radio.com/k6sti/roster.htm

Ugh! That must be an ugly experience. Driving along, listening to music and suddenly the audio drops back or jumps out and is out of sync. A few more instances of that and I'll be scrambling for my iPod.

You would think iBiquity would have figured out some kind of sync-pulse or comparative technology to keep the digital and analog channels locked.

No wonder people with expensive new cars are coming back to the dealer complaining about their radios. The most reliable component in the car, the radio, has now become the least reliable.

It wouldn't surprise me if car manufacturers stop offering HD Radio until this problem got resolved.

C5


The drifting delay is a real pesky problem. iBiquity claims to understand the importance of maintaining alignment, as discussed on this page:

http://www.ibiquity.com/broadcasters/quality_implementation/proper_time_and_level_alignment

However, their HD system is designed in such a way that timing errors can creep in and cause a perfectly-aligned hybrid signal to fall apart. As Brian Beezley points out, this remains a widespread problem (even in major markets like LA) despite numerous attempts to correct it over the past few years.

I just received a bulletin from iBiquity discussing a new "fix" which modifies the use of TCP on the link from the "Exporter" to "Exgine", however this could add another 1.5 seconds of delay to the digital signal -- which, of course, will require a corresponding delay in the analog path. Problem is, most processors can't stretch this far without adding memory -- so once again, "it's time to upgrade" -- IF your company will spend the money.

The following documents provide a look at what's required to stabilize this "Rube Goldberg" system. Needless to say, maintaining proper alignment requires ample attention from the engineering staff, but most large radio groups have cut way back in that area. How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/HD%20Networking%20Requirements%20v9(1).pdf

http://www.ibiquity.com/i/HD Networking Best Practices.pdf

 

[pocket-radio]

Microsoft plays this way too. They rush products to the marketplace, and once the consumers are stuck with their OS, then Microsoft provides updates, patches, fixes, upgrades and so on.

Just look at Vista. Some people love it! While I’ve heard plenty of complaints. Some users are so fed up they’ve opted to reverting back to XP.

If consumers blow $200.00 for a new HD radio that doesn’t really work as advertised, do they return radios getting their money back? and reverting back to what works!

Imagine if you will ipods skipping songs.
HD television signals being turned off randomly
Satellite broadcasters offering 10 stations of nothing but music jukeboxes.

Personal opinions aside, if these products didn’t work nobody will buy them.
Iniquity, the time for beta testing was 4 years ago not now!

I know the circumstances are very different but this feels like AM stereo all over again! Another gem nobody was asking for. I mean that in the nicest possible way.

 

[Savage]

Except: C-Quam AM Stereo worked. HD does not. At least not enough to achieve market acceptance.

I was running an AM back when the 5-way battle for AM Stereo was raging. I respectfully correct your statement that "nobody was asking" for AM Stereo. Actually broadcasters and AM listeners, of which there were still many at that time, were excited about AM Stereo. The only reason it didn't fly was the threat of litigation at the FCC, which threw up its hands and "let the marketplace decide" which of the 5 competing systems would prevail. By time the confusion and indecision was resolved in favor of C-Quam, the industry had moved on. Receiver manufacturers gave up the ship admist the predictable chaos. In some markets there were AMs programming various flavors of AM Stereo - Kahn-Hazeltine's DSB 2-receiver compatible system, Motorola and Magnavox in one instance I remember.

I did afternoon drive on 50,000 watt WWKB In Buffalo while the station was using C-Quam. It sounded fantastic. I share the opinion by many expressed here, that AM Stereo sounded so great it was actually more natural and easy-to-listen-to than FM Stereo.

HD can't be compared with C-Quam. Sure, HD offers a "stereo" image very close in to the transmitter on high-powered signals, but it's fake and fatiguing, more of a curiosity than an engineering advance. C-Quam worked well, was compatible with existing receivers and offered a real - not illusory - advancement over traditional mono AM.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

I respectfully correct your statement that "nobody was asking" for AM Stereo. Actually broadcasters and AM listeners, of which there were still many at that time, were excited about AM Stereo. The only reason it didn't fly was the threat of litigation at the FCC,

I was one of the people anxious for AM stereo - given that in that era, top-40 AM was still viable. What killed AM stereo was the migration of music to FM, and the proliferation of "news talk" AM stations. Within a few years of the introduction of AM stereo, there was no need for it because all of the legacy AM top-40 stations were gone. Given that some HD radios actually decode C-Quam, it is still a viable alternative for the few music stations that want high quality sound AND reliable nighttime reception.

The failure of AM stereo should be a real wake up call for the proponents of HD AM. If people didn't need C-Quam because the stations no longer played music, they don't need HD AM because news / talk / sports still dominates the band and doesn't require high fidelity or stereo. In fact, some FM talkers have turned off their stereo pilot because stereo is no longer required. For the life of me, I don't know why an FM talker would bother with HD, except to get an HD-2 channel that nobody listens to anyway.

 

[Channel Surf]

How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

A Gone are the nice steering wheel controls and a lot of other convenience features of the stock radio that comes with the car. If it isn't already so integrated with the car's other systems it is downright impossible to install. And the antenna issues - with the end of the 31 inch whip, how noisy is the antenna signa? The radio that comes stock is designed for it - aftermarket may not - so HD coverage may be WORSE than expected, and a false indication of real coverage.

Perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but am I to understand that the standard 31 inch whip antenna is now history?
If so...replaced by what???

I bought an 09 Pontiac and it has a very short antenna at the back of the roof, not sure if this is only for Satellite or is also for AM-FM. If you look up antennas for GM cars they say: Antenna, integral, hidden, that's it, no other info.

How do these "very short" antennas perform on analog FM and AM compared to the standard 31 inch antennas????

 

[Tom Wells]

How many of these companies would even consider buying the CE a $150 HD car radio to allow ongoing monitoring of the delay?

A Gone are the nice steering wheel controls and a lot of other convenience features of the stock radio that comes with the car. If it isn't already so integrated with the car's other systems it is downright impossible to install. And the antenna issues - with the end of the 31 inch whip, how noisy is the antenna signa? The radio that comes stock is designed for it - aftermarket may not - so HD coverage may be WORSE than expected, and a false indication of real coverage.

Perhaps I haven't been paying attention, but am I to understand that the standard 31 inch whip antenna is now history?
If so...replaced by what???

I bought an 09 Pontiac and it has a very short antenna at the back of the roof, not sure if this is only for Satellite or is also for AM-FM. If you look up antennas for GM cars they say: Antenna, integral, hidden, that's it, no other info.

How do these "very short" antennas perform on analog FM and AM compared to the standard 31 inch antennas????

OK for FM, deaf as a post for AM, combined with the fact most AM car radios don't have tuned RF amps ahead of the detector anymore.
The wee little antenna helps make sure you don't get enough signal to walk through the first mixer on a stong local 50 khz away on AM.

You didn't really like listening to that AM 1300 in the next county, did you? :

 

[Savage]

Hmmm. I have a 2005 Pontiac Vibe. It also has a short antenna located in the middle of the rear roof area, right over the hatchback - the same location described by Channel Surf. From his location description I would hazard a guess he's also got a Vibe, a Pontiac best-seller (and badge-engineered Toyota Matrix.)

I have to say: my factory Vibe radio is one of the best-performing, sensitive and selective AM radios I've found within memory. While the stubby little antenna doesn't inspire confidence, it functions very well. Of course this is only one model of one make, but at least it proves that the physical size of the antenna doesn't necessarily dictate performance.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

How do these "very short" antennas perform on analog FM and AM compared to the standard 31 inch antennas????

I've had good results on analog FM. Analog AM is so-so, mainly because the efficiency of the antenna, which was already less than 1% with a 31 inch whip, is reduced even more to the geometry of whatever pathetic antenna they put on the car. The biggest issue is ignition noise, which is probably because they embed the antenna in the windshield. I remember in the late 70's when GM did that, I ended up drilling a hole in the fender for a whip. And the big surprise - they had tried to compensate for the miserable antenna with increased sensitivity in the radio. That Delco was a DX machine with a decent antenna on it!

Now - antenna in windshield version 2 - DX is not as good as let's say a Pioneer Supertuner 3, I probably lose 30 miles of range compared to a Pioneer with a good antenna under normal conditions on FM. AM is getting lousy even on Pioneer head units, but who cares with all the stupid talkers, sports and foreign language stuff.

With a little atmospheric help, I've done some 300 mile FM reception with the Delco modified with narrow ceramic filters. With only two filters, selectivity is not as good as a Pioneer old design Supertuner 3 that had three filters, and nowhere near as good as the Supertuner 3D with adaptive IF bandwidth.

 

[JohnnyElectron]

If you drill a hole in your car and add a 31" whip to replace the crappy dinky antenna, will it still work okay? I was thinking that they might have a preamp in the midget antennae to confuse things.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

If you drill a hole in your car and add a 31" whip to replace the crappy dinky antenna, will it still work okay? I was thinking that they might have a preamp in the midget antennae to confuse things.

If I drilled a hole these days, I would add a 60 inch whip. The extra length really super chargers AM, and seems to help FM a lot, too. Or better yet, a bottom loaded whip to make the AM antenna electrically long enough to have some real efficiency.

As far as the pre-amp in the antenna - I've heard rumors to that effect. Obviously, your own whip would bypass the pre-amp and probably present some connector issues as well. I'd have a real close look at the whole setup before I decided to modify anything. The days of car radio, speakers, and antenna being separately replaceable may be just about over. But if you replace the whole thing with an aftermarket system so you can get HD radio (HA HA), then yes, drill and put in a decent whip, and decent speakers while you are at it. So what if you can't change stations from the steering wheel. HD radio makes the tuning dial obsolete - it is so wonderful you can settle on one station and throw away the knob (snicker).

 

[KB1OKL]

Hmmm. I have a 2005 Pontiac Vibe. It also has a short antenna located in the middle of the rear roof area, right over the hatchback - the same location described by Channel Surf. From his location description I would hazard a guess he's also got a Vibe, a Pontiac best-seller (and badge-engineered Toyota Matrix.)

I have to say: my factory Vibe radio is one of the best-performing, sensitive and selective AM radios I've found within memory. While the stubby little antenna doesn't inspire confidence, it functions very well. Of course this is only one model of one make, but at least it proves that the physical size of the antenna doesn't necessarily dictate performance.

I'm the one who's got the 09 Pontiac with the stubby in back, it's a Pontiac G8 GT and AM actually works pretty well, the radio's a Blaupunkt. I haven't tried DXing on it but the normal stations I listen to come in well. CHWO 740 Toronto and WWKB 1520 Buffalo. I guess it's your old station Bob when it was WKBW. The only problem is the car's so fast I leave the radio waves behind!

 

[Channel Surf]

If you drill a hole in your car and add a 31" whip to replace the crappy dinky antenna, will it still work okay? I was thinking that they might have a preamp in the midget antennae to confuse things.

If I drilled a hole these days, I would add a 60 inch whip. The extra length really super chargers AM, and seems to help FM a lot, too. Or better yet, a bottom loaded whip to make the AM antenna electrically long enough to have some real efficiency.

Those old 60 inch whips were phenomenal! The old Delco AM radios in my 1960s and 1970s cars performed as well as the best Superadio 2s, with those antennas. Around 1973, I was told that the optimal length for FM though, was 31 inches, and as time went on and FM took over, so did those 31 inch whips, which I noticed at the time, diminished AM reception considerably.