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I've got to get this off my chest

B

bpatrick

I'm getting frustrated. Not with any of you,
far from it, but I see several things that
bother me:

1. I see people like Eddie Albert, Anne Bancroft,
Paul Winchell, Frank Gorshin, and Lane Smith passing on.
True, we can't do anything about this, but read on.

2. I watch the Nick at Nite 20th anniversary marathon
and wonder where great sitcoms like All In The
Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Dick Van Dyke,
The Odd Couple, and Dobie Gillis went. I mean, if
you're old enough to remember, didn't you look forward
to these shows each week?

3. Most of you are saying that the new Bewitched movie
is a travesty on the memory of the series, that Nicole
Kidman is no Elizabeth Montgomery (that I can believe),
and that only Steve Carell as Uncle Arthur is any good
(and that's saying something--Paul Lynde is a tough
pair of shoes to fill, as the revivals of Hollywood
Squares have shown).

4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf? And I've
seen old episodes of To Tell The Truth with Don Ameche
and Ralph Bellamy as panelists, and it's obvious to me
that they actually cracked a book once in a while.

Now as to what bothers me: What is happening to the word
TALENT, both actors and writers? I can't find a current
sitcom that makes me laugh, I see few actors outside some
of the drama series who can act, I go to the movies and
see older actors such as Jack Nicholson, Gene Hackman, and
Morgan Freeman acting the likes of Adam Sandler, Ray Romano,
and Jim Carrey right off the screen.

Is it just me on a rant or does anyone else feel that Hollywood
has too many pretty faces and not enough real talent--or brains?<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by bpatrick on 06/27/05 12:38 AM.</FONT></P>
 
> I'm getting frustrated. Not with any of you,
> far from it, but I see several things that
> bother me:
>
> 1. I see people like Eddie Albert, Anne Bancroft,
> Paul Winchell, Frank Gorshin, and Lane Smith passing on.
> True, we can't do anything about this, but read on.
>
> 2. I watch the Nick at Nite 20th anniversary marathon
> and wonder where great sitcoms like All In The
> Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Dick Van Dyke,
> The Odd Couple, and Dobie Gillis went. I mean, if
> you're old enough to remember, didn't you look forward
> to these shows each week?
>
> 3. Most of you are saying that the new Bewitched movie
> is a travesty on the memory of the series, that Nicole
> Kidman is no Elizabeth Montgomery (that I can believe),
> and that only Steve Carell as Uncle Arthur is any good
> (and that's saying something--Paul Lynde is a tough
> pair of shoes to fill, as the revivals of Hollywood
> Squares have shown).
>
> 4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
> on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
> any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
> Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf? And I've
> seen old episodes of To Tell The Truth with Don Ameche
> and Ralph Bellamy as panelists, and it's obvious to me
> that they actually cracked a book once in a while.
>
> Now as to what bothers me: What is happening to the word
> TALENT, both actors and writers? I can't find a current
> sitcom that makes me laugh, I see few actors outside some
> of the drama series who can act, I go to the movies and
> see older actors such as Jack Nicholson, Gene Hackman, and
> Morgan Freeman acting the likes of Adam Sandler, Ray Romano,
>
> and Jim Carrey right off the screen.
>
> Is it just me on a rant or does anyone else feel that
> Hollywood
> has too many pretty faces and not enough real talent--or
> brains?
>

It's not you, your theories are correct. We have different perceptions of talent, and we are much quicker to annoit someone as a star.

Current celebs are packaged differently, and they no longer have to do anything well. Target audiences are different, no 14 year old gives a hoot about whether Adam Sandler can act, or whether anyone can sing.

I'd blame it on marketing to a less worldly demographic, one that cares less about ability. Because of this there is no need to come up with intelligent ideas for movies. Rehash something, build a few explosions into a preposterous storyline, then hit the talk show circuit.

Fred Allen said Television was a medium because nothing was ever well done. he's getting more right every day.
 
It all comes down to money. We as a society are getting dumber and dumber, and Hollywood is catering more and more to what is now the majority. The Simpsons isn't as funny as it was, but I saw the one tonight where Homer became a "Sprawl-Mart" greeter, and in the interim between Grampa and Homer being greeter, there was a guy continually trying to walk through a wall. That demographic is what has become the norm in North America (believe me, I see people like that everywhere), and instead of spending money to produce a good product, we just spend the minimum amount of money required to satisfy these people that are now the majority.

To carry on the original post, there is one other thing that bothers me greatly about television today. Mornings just aint what they used to be. I, like many of my generation, looked forward to the ritual of watching cartoons every morning before school, and on Saturday mornings (back in my day there was never anything other than religious programming on Sunday mornings). Back then it was easy to find the likes of Inspector Gadget, Garfield, The Flintstones, and other good cartoons.

Nowadays kids' programming has morphed into the unrealistic Disney preteen drama crap with skinny model girls and tall basketball playing guys to satisfy both E/I requirements and to satisfy preteens' hunger for the opposite sex. Yeah, that means you Lizzie and Even.
 
> I'm getting frustrated. Not with any of you,
> far from it, but I see several things that
> bother me:
>
> 1. I see people like Eddie Albert, Anne Bancroft,
> Paul Winchell, Frank Gorshin, and Lane Smith passing on.

...and John Fiedler -- Tigger and Piglet gone the same weekend...

> True, we can't do anything about this, but read on.
>
> 2. I watch the Nick at Nite 20th anniversary marathon
> and wonder where great sitcoms like All In The
> Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Dick Van Dyke,
> The Odd Couple, and Dobie Gillis went. I mean, if
> you're old enough to remember, didn't you look forward
> to these shows each week?
>
> 3. Most of you are saying that the new Bewitched movie
> is a travesty on the memory of the series, that Nicole
> Kidman is no Elizabeth Montgomery (that I can believe),
> and that only Steve Carell as Uncle Arthur is any good
> (and that's saying something--Paul Lynde is a tough
> pair of shoes to fill, as the revivals of Hollywood
> Squares have shown).
>
> 4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
> on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
> any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
> Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf? And I've
> seen old episodes of To Tell The Truth with Don Ameche
> and Ralph Bellamy as panelists, and it's obvious to me
> that they actually cracked a book once in a while.

...even better were the '60s bunches on "To Tell The Truth" (Orson Bean, Tom Poston, Kitty Carlisle and Peggy Cass) and "I've Got a Secret" (Bill Cullen, Henry Morgan, Bess Myerson and Betsy Palmer). even the main regulars and semi-regulars on the '70s version of "Match Game" were obviously more intelligent (and entertaining) than the crews they would put together for that revival of seven years ago...

...to much the same end, the daytime celebrity talk shows of the '60s and '70s -- Merv Griffin, David Frost, even (in spite of the frequent cluelessness of the host) Mike Douglas -- were infinitely more watchable than the drek that's been on in recent years (Rosie O'Donnell, Tony Danza, Ellen DeGeneres, Wayne Brady) because the guests that would make return trips to the shows back then would be infinitely more interesting, entertaining and intelligent. Give me Merv Griffin and Orson Welles conversing on their worst days over Oprah Winfrey and Tom Cruise on their best...

> Now as to what bothers me: What is happening to the word
> TALENT, both actors and writers? I can't find a current
> sitcom that makes me laugh, I see few actors outside some
> of the drama series who can act, I go to the movies and
> see older actors such as Jack Nicholson, Gene Hackman, and
> Morgan Freeman acting the likes of Adam Sandler, Ray Romano,
> and Jim Carrey right off the screen.
>
> Is it just me on a rant or does anyone else feel that
> Hollywood
> has too many pretty faces and not enough real talent--or
> brains?

...it ain't you, pally...
<P ID="signature">______________
King Daevid MacKenzie. How Radio is done. No brag, just fact.
WLSU, Wisconsin Public Radio, La Crosse
http://ultimajock.blogspot.com
"Fear and God do not inhabit the same space." DICK GREGORY</P>
 
> > I'm getting frustrated. Not with any of you,
> > far from it, but I see several things that
> > bother me:
> >
> > 1. I see people like Eddie Albert, Anne Bancroft,
> > Paul Winchell, Frank Gorshin, and Lane Smith passing
> on.
>
> ...and John Fiedler -- Tigger and Piglet gone the same
> weekend...
>
> > True, we can't do anything about this, but read on.
> >
> > 2. I watch the Nick at Nite 20th anniversary marathon
> > and wonder where great sitcoms like All In The
> > Family, Mary Tyler Moore, Bob Newhart, Dick Van Dyke,
> > The Odd Couple, and Dobie Gillis went. I mean, if
> > you're old enough to remember, didn't you look forward
> > to these shows each week?
> >
> > 3. Most of you are saying that the new Bewitched movie
> > is a travesty on the memory of the series, that Nicole
> > Kidman is no Elizabeth Montgomery (that I can believe),
>
> > and that only Steve Carell as Uncle Arthur is any good
> > (and that's saying something--Paul Lynde is a tough
> > pair of shoes to fill, as the revivals of Hollywood
> > Squares have shown).
> >
> > 4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
> > on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
>
> > any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
> > Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf? And I've
>
> > seen old episodes of To Tell The Truth with Don Ameche
> > and Ralph Bellamy as panelists, and it's obvious to me
> > that they actually cracked a book once in a while.
>
> ...even better were the '60s bunches on "To Tell The Truth"
> (Orson Bean, Tom Poston, Kitty Carlisle and Peggy Cass) and
> "I've Got a Secret" (Bill Cullen, Henry Morgan, Bess Myerson
> and Betsy Palmer). even the main regulars and semi-regulars
> on the '70s version of "Match Game" were obviously more
> intelligent (and entertaining) than the crews they would put
> together for that revival of seven years ago...
>
> ...to much the same end, the daytime celebrity talk shows of
> the '60s and '70s -- Merv Griffin, David Frost, even (in
> spite of the frequent cluelessness of the host) Mike Douglas
> -- were infinitely more watchable than the drek that's been
> on in recent years (Rosie O'Donnell, Tony Danza, Ellen
> DeGeneres, Wayne Brady) because the guests that would make
> return trips to the shows back then would be infinitely more
> interesting, entertaining and intelligent. Give me Merv
> Griffin and Orson Welles conversing on their worst days over
> Oprah Winfrey and Tom Cruise on their best...
>

I was watching Oprah the other day and her guest was Tom Cruise. (I think it was a repeat.) At one point during the show she says to Cruise that she recently read somewhere that he is "the greatest actor in the world today". "Greatest actor", mind you! I nearly choked on my sandwich!
Anyway......So of course, after Oprah said that, the audience (which was 99.9% female) screamed with collective orgasmic bliss and Tom Cruise just gave Oprah that big toothy grin of his. A short time later, during a commercial break, I sat back in my chair and thought about what Oprah had said to Cruise about him being the greatest actor in the world today, and I realized at that moment how far down Hollywood has slipped from its golden years!! Because Tom Cruise on his best day couldn't hold a candle to the likes of Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, Gregory Peck, Cary Grant, etc. etc.

Heck!, Tom Cruise can't even hold a candle to many of today's aging/still very much alive legendary actors like Clint Eastwood, Al Pacino, Robert Redford, Robert Duvall and the like!!!!

The popularity of Tom Cruise tells me all I need to know about where Hollywood is at these days. And like I said, how far its fallen from yesteryear. It's truly a sad thing for a movie buff like me.

> > Now as to what bothers me: What is happening to the word
> > TALENT, both actors and writers? I can't find a current
> > sitcom that makes me laugh, I see few actors outside some
> > of the drama series who can act, I go to the movies and
> > see older actors such as Jack Nicholson, Gene Hackman, and
>
> > Morgan Freeman acting the likes of Adam Sandler, Ray
> Romano,
> > and Jim Carrey right off the screen.
> >
> > Is it just me on a rant or does anyone else feel that
> > Hollywood
> > has too many pretty faces and not enough real talent--or
> > brains?
>
> ...it ain't you, pally...
>
 
> I was watching Oprah the other day and her guest was Tom
> Cruise. (I think it was a repeat.) At one point during the
> show she says to Cruise that she recently read somewhere
> that he is "the greatest actor in the world today".
> "Greatest actor", mind you! I nearly choked on my sandwich!
<snip>
----------
The Oprah Winfrey Show has deteriorated as well over the years. It used to be about real life issues - not a celebrity interview show - more like Phil Donohue's show. I have a tape of a couple Oprah shows from 1988, and the format is unrecognizable - the only thing that was the same back then was the host, who even then was a lot more serious.

Well, at least Oprah hasn't sunk to the level of Geraldo or Springer.
 
> > I was watching Oprah the other day and her guest was Tom
> > Cruise. (I think it was a repeat.) At one point during the
>
> > show she says to Cruise that she recently read somewhere
> > that he is "the greatest actor in the world today".
> > "Greatest actor", mind you! I nearly choked on my
> sandwich!
>
> ----------
> The Oprah Winfrey Show has deteriorated as well over the
> years. It used to be about real life issues - not a
> celebrity interview show - more like Phil Donohue's show. I
> have a tape of a couple Oprah shows from 1988, and the
> format is unrecognizable - the only thing that was the same
> back then was the host, who even then was a lot more
> serious.
>
> Well, at least Oprah hasn't sunk to the level of Geraldo or
> Springer.
>

Well, that's a great point! Another thought that occurred to me as I watched that show was: "My God! Oprah Winfrey has become a billionaire doing fluff shows/interviews like this one??!! I could do so-called interviews like her interview with Tom Cruise, and do it better, at a fraction of her salary! Geez!"
 
> > Well, at least Oprah hasn't sunk to the level of Geraldo
> > or Springer.
> >

Can't say she didn't try -- I think she did a few shows that almost went into the same subject matter covered by Springer or Maury. (I don't put Geraldo in the same class as them, as that shows doesn't have a fight in every single episode, or subjects that would even make the Weekly World News blush.)

>
> I could do so-called interviews like her interview
> with Tom Cruise, and do it better, at a fraction of her
> salary! Geez!"
>

But can you afford Tom's interview fees?
 
> > > Well, at least Oprah hasn't sunk to the level of Geraldo
>
> > > or Springer.
> > >
>
> Can't say she didn't try -- I think she did a few shows that
> almost went into the same subject matter covered by Springer
> or Maury. (I don't put Geraldo in the same class as them, as
> that shows doesn't have a fight in every single episode, or
> subjects that would even make the Weekly World News blush.)
>
> >
> > I could do so-called interviews like her interview
> > with Tom Cruise, and do it better, at a fraction of her
> > salary! Geez!"
> >
>
> But can you afford Tom's interview fees?
>

It's my understanding that most studios require that their leading actors make the talk show circuit (for promotional considerations/purposes) when that studio is about to release a film of theirs that that leading actor is in as part of the contract that that actor signed to do that film. I don't believe that talk shows like Letterman, Leno, and Oprah pay "big bucks" to get an actor who happens to be out and and about pitching a film to appear on their show. The actors get paid a bare minimum (as required by their actors union) to appear on those talk shows--and nothing more. I bet KM (our well-respected, and much-admired board monitor) could tell you more about that than I could.
 
Panel Shows (Was: Re: I've got to get this off my chest)

B. Patrick commented:

> 4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
> on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
> any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
> Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf?

About five years ago, a pilot for a revival of "What's My Line?" was taped, intended to air as a Summer replacement on CBS.

CBS rejected the pilot. From what I read at the time, the network liked the host (was he John O'Hurley??), and thought the contestants were interesting. The apparant reason CBS rejected the pilot was that the twenty-and-thirtysomething panel had no chemistry between it's members.

What made the original "What's My Line?" a 25-year success (both network and first-run syndication) was the chemistry of the panel. You had the "person you love to hate" (Dorothy Kilgallen prior to her passing away, the Howard Cosell or Simon Cowell of her era), the "intellectual" (Bennett Cerf, until he died), the "comedian" (Fred Allen, then Steve Allen, and much later, Soupy Sales), and the "friend next door" (Arlene Francis). Not only were the "types" on the panel interesting, but so were the personalities.

And for a "panel show", it's the casting of the panel that determines the show's ultimate success or failure.
 
Re: Panel Shows (Was: Re: I've got to get this off my chest)

> B. Patrick commented:
>
> > 4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
> > on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
>
> > any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
> > Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf?
>
> About five years ago, a pilot for a revival of "What's My
> Line?" was taped, intended to air as a Summer replacement on
> CBS.
>
> CBS rejected the pilot. From what I read at the time, the
> network liked the host (was he John O'Hurley??), and thought
> the contestants were interesting. The apparant reason CBS
> rejected the pilot was that the twenty-and-thirtysomething
> panel had no chemistry between it's members.
>
> What made the original "What's My Line?" a 25-year success
> (both network and first-run syndication) was the chemistry
> of the panel. You had the "person you love to hate" (Dorothy
> Kilgallen prior to her passing away, the Howard Cosell or
> Simon Cowell of her era), the "intellectual" (Bennett Cerf,
> until he died), the "comedian" (Fred Allen, then Steve
> Allen, and much later, Soupy Sales), and the "friend next
> door" (Arlene Francis). Not only were the "types" on the
> panel interesting, but so were the personalities.
>
> And for a "panel show", it's the casting of the panel that
> determines the show's ultimate success of failure.
>
Believe it or not, I think Harry Anderson hosted the rejected
What's My Line? pilot, and apparently wasn't all that bad.

I've Got A Secret did much the same thing as What's My Line?
in casting its panel, with the genders reversed: "person you
love to hate" (Henry Morgan), "friend next door" (Bill Cullen),
"airhead" (Betsy Palmer, and nothing personal intended, that was
the role she played), and "glamour girl" (Bess Myerson). Maybe
my descriptions of the two women are off-kilter, but I think I'm
on target about the men. Nevertheless, I'm belaboring a point.
Getting just the right mix of panelists IS the key to success or
failure, and Mark Goodson and Bill Todman probably did it better
than anyone else.

The very presence of a Fred Allen or Steve Allen or (yes!) Soupy
Sales, whom Gil Fates says is actually quite knowledgeable,
would be enough to convince me that brainpower had to go hand-
in-hand with comedy, and I still doubt if there are many celebrities
with both the brains and the wit to do a What's My Line? today.
 
> > But can you afford Tom's interview fees?
>
> It's my understanding that most studios require that their
> leading actors make the talk show circuit (for promotional
> considerations/purposes) when that studio is about to
> release a film of theirs that that leading actor is in as
> part of the contract that that actor signed to do that film.
> I don't believe that talk shows like Letterman, Leno, and
> Oprah pay "big bucks" to get an actor who happens to be out
> and and about pitching a film to appear on their show. The
> actors get paid a bare minimum (as required by their actors
> union) to appear on those talk shows--and nothing more. I
> bet KM (our well-respected, and much-admired board monitor)
> could tell you more about that than I could.

I'm only well-respected and much-admired here on the television boards. The main board I moderate (Los Angeles Radio) wastes a lot of database space with posts from people who think a moderator can't also be a participant, and that every time I say anything negative in a post I'm putting the poster down in moderator mode. *sigh*

As to the answer to the question, that's pretty much the case IF the celeb is promoting something. Sometimes Letterman will have old friends on the show, and those are probably subject to a contractual arrangement.

Oh, and I liked Oprah better before she went star-crazy, too.
<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
> Oh, and I liked Oprah better before she went star-crazy,
> too.
----------
I Blame Dr. Phil. As a frequent guest on Oprah he took care of some real issues on her show, and once he got his own show, the last of the real issues migrated over.
 
Re: Panel Shows (Was: Re: I've got to get this off my chest)

> Believe it or not, I think Harry Anderson hosted the rejected
> What's My Line? pilot, and apparently wasn't all that bad.
>
The pilot was hosted by Harry Anderson, three of the four panelists were Betty White, Dr. Laura and Bryan Cranston. From what I've been told by somebody who was there, there was no chemistry at all.


--Mike
 
To be sure, we're not the target audience anymore. With all the channels available, and the fragmentation of the audience, I don't think we'll ever see another M*A*S*H.<P ID="signature">______________
I'll get back to you when I think of a cute quote</P>
 
> 4. Last weekend I watched the episodes of What's My Line?
> on GSN where Anne Bancroft was the Mystery Guest. Does
> any celebrity today possess the INTELLIGENCE of Arlene
> Francis, Dorothy Kilgallen, and Bennett Cerf? And I've
> seen old episodes of To Tell The Truth with Don Ameche
> and Ralph Bellamy as panelists, and it's obvious to me
> that they actually cracked a book once in a while.

I figure this is probably why "Pyramid" failed to attract an audience. Its like password, very cerebral and you have to have more than your celebrity to be successful and help the contestant win money.

Though, I think they also over-did the "Pyramid" format to much in the "Millionaire" mold, and aimed it at to an young audience by inviting youthful celebrities to play. ended up with a game most young people won't watch (to cerebral) nor will the older crowd (the celebs are to young).
 
Re: Panel Shows (Was: Re: I've got to get this off my chest)

> > Believe it or not, I think Harry Anderson hosted the
> rejected
> > What's My Line? pilot, and apparently wasn't all that bad.
>
> >
> The pilot was hosted by Harry Anderson, three of the four
> panelists were Betty White, Dr. Laura and Bryan Cranston.
> From what I've been told by somebody who was there, there
> was no chemistry at all.

Oh.

My.

Christ.

...Master Laura Schlessinger on a "What's My Line?" panel??!? The panel needed someone you could handle while being occasionally annoyed by (Kilgallen, Morgan, Carlisle in her later years), not someone who induced nightmares!...<P ID="signature">______________
King Daevid MacKenzie. How Radio is done. No brag, just fact.
WLSU, Wisconsin Public Radio, La Crosse
http://ultimajock.blogspot.com
"Fear and God do not inhabit the same space." DICK GREGORY</P>
 
> I figure this is probably why "Pyramid" failed to attract an
> audience. Its like password, very cerebral and you have to
> have more than your celebrity to be successful and help the
> contestant win money.
>
> Though, I think they also over-did the "Pyramid" format to
> much in the "Millionaire" mold, and aimed it at to an young
> audience by inviting youthful celebrities to play. ended up
> with a game most young people won't watch (to cerebral) nor
> will the older crowd (the celebs are to young).

I know a lot of people who refused to watch "Pyramid" because Donny Osmond was the host. Moreso than most other shows, to most fans of Pyramid there is only one host, and that's Dick Clark.

This is somewhat like people who stopped watching "Tic Tac Dough" when they replaced Wink Martindale, or refused to watch any of the "Match Game" revivals without the late Gene Rayburn.
<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
I want Art Fleming back! At least Don Pardo.<P ID="signature">______________
I'll get back to you when I think of a cute quote</P>
 
> I want Art Fleming back! At least Don Pardo.

You may have to settle for Don Pardo. Fleming died ten years ago, of pancreatic cancer.
<P ID="signature">______________


</P>
 
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