Jack-Chi worse than Jack-NY

[OldiesCat1]

newest number in for WJMK are very ugly- 24th overall, not even in the top 15 25-54. Even NYC's Jack has gotten up to 14th 25-54 (not paradise but not #21 anymore, either).

 

[Jammerz]

Weren't you one of the biggest proponents for Jack-FM? What are your thoughts about WJMK and what do you think should be done? Just curious.

 

[musicloverII]

Maybe his choo-choo train broke and the boys fell off? Maybe all the kissin' ass didn't get him the raise or promotion he thought he'd get for propping up such a ridiculous answer to radio's big sucking sound.

Weren't you one of the biggest proponents for Jack-FM? What are your thoughts about WJMK and what do you think should be done? Just curious.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Weren't you one of the biggest proponents for Jack-FM? What are your thoughts about WJMK and what do you think should be done? Just curious.

I am still a proponent of the Variety Hits approach, in general. It could be that WJMK never evolved much past start-up mode and even the most unique and refreshing approach can get stale if it isn't evolved-this may be what's happened in Chicago. In New York, they also just hired a PD in the past month or so- what both stations do from here is anybody's guess. I do believe it does make a statement about localized radio, though- it could be the most successful V.H. stations (so far) did a better job customizing themselves to their markets (LA, St Louis, Phoenix, Seattle, etc.) and those who just signed-on and hoped for the best didn't get far.

 

[dan_greenberg1500]

The Jack in Seattle is beginning to stumble as well. Granted its in much better shape than the NYC and Chicago stations, but its on its last leg. I think the difference between these stations is that listeners in some markets see through the crap this type of station offers and it never gets off the ground while in some other markets, the fad temporarily catches on until people just get tired of it.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Jack

On their "last leg"? Are you daffy? They've been on-air about a year and have had quite an impact so far, recent numbers notwithstanding.Stations go up, stations go down- no radio station, regardless of how well it's programmed or marketed, is immune to ups and downs. EVERY radio station in America either goes up or down, literally every rating period.Let's keep a little dip in perspective, especially during a Winter book.

 

[dan_greenberg1500]

I realize stations go up and down. Can you list for me though one Jack station that peaked, dropped 4-5 slots, then shot up once again? I don't think there is a Jack station out there that has done that. Granted the Seattle Jack is alot better(ratings wise) than the others around the country, but the same could be said about a few years back with Jack in Dallas when it first launched. How is that one doing now? These stations don't rebound, they peak and then slowly tumble until they are no longer a major player in the market.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Jack

my point is that most stations don't drop like you describe nor go right back up like that. You're looking at things in generalities and then casting that over all Jack stations. To say "they don't rebound, they peak then slowly tumble"- it is WAY too early in the "Jack" game to make such a statement since most haven't been on-air long enough to truly guage success or failure. I find it amusing that radio folks who don't like or get the Jack/VH approach apply standards on them that they wouldn't on almost any other format- why is that? I think it's because most are jockless and that alone gives many in radio the excuse to instantly hate the format because it might not include them if they never hire jocks.What about the stations in Phoenix, St. Louis, Indy, Vegas, Louisville, Austin and other places that are doing really well? Jack in Dallas did good but not great and right now they're soft. PLUS, please keep in mind that when you talk about a station does well, drops then rebounds-most Variety Hits/Jack stations haven't been on the air long enough to even have a chance to do that. Most have been on the air around a year, certainly less than 2. Give them a chance, at least the same chance you'd give any new station. Most newly-launched stations build to success slowly, not overnight.

 

[dan_greenberg1500]

You're right most of those stations you listed are just starting out. However Jack in Dallas launched back in 2003 to rave reviews and now it is crap in that market. So when you look at Jack overall you see one of two options for the format, it either kicks ass at the start and then stumbles or it never gets going in the 1st place as the case here in Chicago and NYC. Sure there will be a success story somewhere out there in some market of the format being a consistent player for many years to come because it just happens to click with the listeners in that town, but overall that will not be the case for the majority of Jack stations. Sure they will turn a profit because of the cheap road they have taken, but none of them will ever remain a big player in the market.

 

[JeremyAndrews]

You're right most of those stations you listed are just starting out. However Jack in Dallas launched back in 2003 to rave reviews and now it is crap in that market. So when you look at Jack overall you see one of two options for the format, it either kicks ass at the start and then stumbles or it never gets going in the 1st place as the case here in Chicago and NYC. Sure there will be a success story somewhere out there in some market of the format being a consistent player for many years to come because it just happens to click with the listeners in that town, but overall that will not be the case for the majority of Jack stations. Sure they will turn a profit because of the cheap road they have taken, but none of them will ever remain a big player in the market.

KRBV switched to Jack July 1st 2004 to be exact.

 

[PhilJSmith67]

How well are the Jack stations doing in Canada, where it's been on in some markets for five years? Is it collapsing up there, too?

 

[dan_greenberg1500]

You know I am unsure of exact numbers but a few of them were struggling enough to where they changed their whole "Jack" approach and brought jocks on.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Sure there will be a success story somewhere out there in some market of the format being a consistent player for many years to come because it just happens to click with the listeners in that town, but overall that will not be the case for the majority of Jack stations. Sure they will turn a profit because of the cheap road they have taken, but none of them will ever remain a big player in the market.

Well, the thing is since neither you or I can predict the future, there's no real point to your statement.I get a strong whiff of "they don't have jocks so I think they're crap" from you and many others. We in radio need to put our egos aside when looking at how radio is done today and in the future and try to understand that just because Jack isn't being done the way radio "should be" (in many minds), that doesn't mean it can't be successful. Most of the anti-Jack crowd is made up of personalities who see the no-jock approach as some sort of big-picture conspiracy to get rid of jocks, cut expenses, etc. While I believe most of these stations will need to look at some personality component to be successful long-term, I'm perfectly OK with the scenario that listeners really do dig a station that doesn't have the typical DJ "here's so-and-so and look at my bio on the website and we'll be at this car dealer Saturday afternoon" clutter- if they (the listeners) prefer no jocks and they like the music, it should be THEY who decides how we do radio. It doesn't mean ALL radio has to be that way but if this approach works for THEM, who are you or I to criticize it?If you want to hang on to the good ole days of radio the way it used to be, go ahead- but those who refuse to think foward will definitely be left behind.

 

[dan_greenberg1500]

"I'm perfectly OK with the scenario that listeners really do dig a station..."Do they really dig it though? If so wouldn't the numbers in some of these bigger markets be a little higher? The fact that these stations either never get off the ground or peak and then slide down until they are a non factor means that a samll minority actually dig them. So when you look at personality driven stations that put a Jack to shame numbers wise in a particular market means that the majority of listeners actually "dig" that type of station.And as a jock, sure I think Jack stations suck and hope they fail, but the truth is is that there are plenty of other stations to work at in each market that don't have the same approach. So I hold no ill will towards stations like this, I just think if people really dug these stations, the numbers would definitely reflect that.

 

[Jammerz]

As one who has even proposed and developed jockless formats to station groups/owners, I don't fall into the category that OldiesCat1 described ("radio industry people who think that a jockless station is a failure"). I actually believe that a jockless station can be successful if the programming is UNIQUE and is appealing to a large segment of the market. I definitely prefer live DJs whenever it is possible, because it is the live interaction, localism, and personality that really separates radio from iPods and MP3 players. There are circumstances, unfortunately, when jocks are just too expensive. But here in Chicago? And with CBS Radio? There is NO shortage of money to hire jocks. Yes, yes, yes... the concept of JACK-FM was supposed to be jockless. But sarcastic and angst-ridden sweepers in a monotone voice just seems like the station doesn't care if you listen or not. And if the station doesn't sound like it cares, then why the heck should the listener care at all? Hell... even Scott Shannon's pre-recorded sweepers at True Oldies 94.7 have much more personality and energy. There's a jockless station with at least consistent ratings.I am in Jack-FM's prime demo, but I cannot stand listening to the station. And no... it's not because I'm in the industry. It's because after one or two songs, they play a grating song or two that makes me switch to another station. If a station can't hold my interest for even ten minutes, then I just move on to another. Maybe it's my generation's short-attention span. Jack-FM was supposed to be the answer to the iPod, but it just sounds like somebody else's terribly-programmed iPod. WJMK actually makes me reach for my own iPod or switch to satellite radio a lot quicker. The variety-hits format was supposed to break the mold of traditional radio formats which center on specific music genres or niches. The variety hits concept was to attract listeners from all sorts of musical tastes. In my observations, it seems that the actual result is even more niched with an even smaller audience. The music is AWESOME and GREAT for those loyal listeners, but their numbers seem to be much smaller-- making station growth an even greater challenge. I would be interested in hearing any thoughts and counterviews to make sure that I'm not missing anything here.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Variety Hits was developed as a reaction to radio listeners who were screaming, "we've had it with the repetition" of most library-based formats. They were tired of narrow music and short playlists, they're totally over inane DJ chatter and they totally embraced the idea that a radio station could sort of be like their iPod- popular music from a wide era span.The fact they've signed-on as jockless has ZERO to do with money- in fact, many of these stations continue to pay displaced talent contracts. It was done this way to be different, unpredictable and unique and I think they've done just that. They've created buzz and in nearly every case, revenue is up (in some cases dramatically) over previous formats.Personally, some of the VH stations who've begun to add some personality component are doing well- WARH in St Louis, KPKX Phoenix are two great examples. However, if listeners aren't screaming for DJs and the stations are doing well in the ratings and revenue, why do these sour grapes jocks believe it's radio's duty or responsibility to keep them employed? It is THEIR RESPONSIBILITY to showcase their talent and have a vision for the future of radio so they are a valuable commodity. Perhaps if some of these frustrated and bitter jocks worked harder and developed their talent past "that was-this is" and blabbering about things they are interested in they might not be so paranoid about being replaced. I believe 99% of the anti-Jack sentiment stems from weak and paranoid jocks who see the so-far jockless approach as an afront to their mediocre careers, that some stations will say, "hey, they like our station without DJ chatter- let's keep giving them what they want". And, since radio is in the business of attracting listeners and generating revenue based on their listenership, HOW they do that is up to them. And, those with the fear of being left behind: either get with the program and find ways to re-invent yourself or get out. Either way, please shut up.

 

[dan_greenberg1500]

Oldies,Every message you post, you make it sound like there was a high demand for this format. "Listeners were screaming"....give me a bleeping break, will ya. The format launched successfully in one market in the states and CBS decided it was the holy grail and blew up successful radio stations around the country to introduce this format. Again I ask if these listeners who were screaming for this wonderful format are actually out there, how come the stations in NYC and Chicago remain cellar dwellers and stations that have those blabbering personalities continue to kick its ass?

 

[wikhradio]

I am going to sorta stick out here, but I am going to bring up the Wausau WI market now, and use this as an example. We have 2 stations here with a "variety" approach. One, of course, is 97.9 Jack FM. I LOVED that station when it launched. Now, I may tune in once and a while, but not nearly as often. The music mix just sometimes is too extreme for any normal person. It launched in December.We also have another station here, called "94.7 The Peak". This station plays a large amount of classic hits, as well as some 80s Hits/New Wave (Soft Cell, Duran Duran, Buggles, Flock Of Seagulls, etc), and some 90s/Today Hot AC type hits (Train, Sheryl Crow, Sum 41, Crash Test Dummies, Fastball, etc). This station has HUGE selection, but doesn't go extreme too often. Presentation wise, it is the opposite of Jack. It has DJs, and only 1 liner for the TOH. The djs basically voice the station. It crossfades 2 songs, and then the dj talks, gives who played, and then it continues. Playlist? Over 1k songs. I think this presentation keeps fresher than the same liners all the time, and the huge jumps of genres that sometimes take place. This station launched in March.Overall? Right now, I am stuck on The Peak. The playlist is good, the djs and weather after every stopset are an added bonuses. It was weird not hearing liners at first, but I got used to it. I will post a log of what I hear on here later.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Oldies,Every message you post, you make it sound like there was a high demand for this format. "Listeners were screaming"....give me a bleeping break, will ya. The format launched successfully in one market in the states and CBS decided it was the holy grail and blew up successful radio stations around the country to introduce this format. Again I ask if these listeners who were screaming for this wonderful format are actually out there, how come the stations in NYC and Chicago remain cellar dwellers and stations that have those blabbering personalities continue to kick its ass?

Hey, if you want to continue in denial, that's your business. You're pissed CBS blew up their Oldies station and that's understandable. But you are very narrow in your thinking if you continue to use NY & Chicago as examples of all Variety Hits stations in America. More are finding success than failure. New York and Chicago do not determine trends for the rest of the country, as was in the 60s and 70s. It's the year 2006- wake up. If you don't want to respond to the listening public (who, in the end, make or break our radio stations), good luck.

 

[musicloverII]

Dan, you must not know this yet. OldiesCat is a lackey for the format. CBS must blast all over his head. You can't tell him that the format's a joke because he has some insane belief that it's his savior. We all understand that it's a joke but he and his choo-choo train friends worship this trainwreck. It's almost gone. Pretty soon CBS will sell their stations in the little tiny meaningless markets where Jack is doing better than the ones that count.If anyone's in denial it's the gobstopper boy known as OldiesCat. Any company thinking it can program radio as some piece of technology that people use should have their corporate charter revoked. It's ridiculous to think you can program what I, the guy down the block, the girl in the backseat wants to hear in 10 different format all on one station, it's stupid and a testament to how low in the gene pool radio management has gone to find their "geniuses". In Chicago and NYC (the markets that count) they're a laughing stock - just like OldiesCat. In L.A., like I've said, it's L.A., relationships last as long as the movie they're all working on, it's almost over there too. The Jack slogan: "Don't change the station we'll do it for you".

Oldies,Every message you post, you make it sound like there was a high demand for this format. "Listeners were screaming"....give me a bleeping break, will ya. The format launched successfully in one market in the states and CBS decided it was the holy grail and blew up successful radio stations around the country to introduce this format. Again I ask if these listeners who were screaming for this wonderful format are actually out there, how come the stations in NYC and Chicago remain cellar dwellers and stations that have those blabbering personalities continue to kick its ass?

Hey, if you want to continue in denial, that's your business. You're pissed CBS blew up their Oldies station and that's understandable. But you are very narrow in your thinking if you continue to use NY & Chicago as examples of all Variety Hits stations in America. More are finding success than failure. New York and Chicago do not determine trends for the rest of the country, as was in the 60s and 70s. It's the year 2006- wake up. If you don't want to respond to the listening public (who, in the end, make or break our radio stations), good luck.