Jack-Chi worse than Jack-NY

[OldiesCat1]

Jack

Dan, you must not know this yet. OldiesCat is a lackey for the format. CBS must blast all over his head. You can't tell him that the format's a joke because he has some insane belief that it's his savior.

Dan- if you don't this responder, he/she is a victim of a Jack station somewhere, evidenced by his/her bitter-beer-face trashing of the Jack format. I do not work for CBS doing the Jack format and do not see Jack as a radio savior. Whether you seriously consider discource with a contender or a pretender, that's up to you. But he/she does not have an objective viewpoint toward Jack- they don't get it, they just hate it, period.

 

[musicloverII]

Re: Jack

You're an apologist for the format. (Moderator Edit). You're in love with Jack, really, get some help.

Dan, you must not know this yet. OldiesCat is a lackey for the format. CBS must blast all over his head. You can't tell him that the format's a joke because he has some insane belief that it's his savior.

Dan- if you don't this responder, he/she is a victim of a Jack station somewhere, evidenced by his/her bitter-beer-face trashing of the Jack format. I do not work for CBS doing the Jack format and do not see Jack as a radio savior. Whether you seriously consider discource with a contender or a pretender, that's up to you. But he/she does not have an objective viewpoint toward Jack- they don't get it, they just hate it, period.

 

[Jammerz]

I thought we were discussing why Jack-FM wasn't working. It isn't about whether JACK-FM has jocks or not. Again, a jockless format CAN succeed-- if the programming is interesting and resonates with a large enough audience. Jack-FM works in smaller markets? Good, but it's not working fabulously here in Chicago. And it's not working in New York. Which leaves me to believe even more that the JACK concept doesn't work in a large or major market which is already saturated with radio signals and a choice of a variety of formats. It seems to work best in markets with limited radio signals and limited variety of formats. Personally, I don't think re-inventing yourself as a wannabe imitation of your newer-technology competitor is looking forward. I still believe that it is the wrong approach. The reason why iPods and MP3 players are taking off is because of the personalization. Radio is a mass-market medium. iPods are a personal-market medium. Radio cannot possibly compete on that ultimate level. The success of the iPod is from the personal customization-- hence, why it comes with earplugs and not speakers. Until technology allows terrestrial radio listeners to customize their own playlists, radio needs to focus on its own strengths that makes it unique and different from iPods, satellite radio, Internet radio, and other technology. And yes, terrestrial radio needs to also make the constant push for improving its own delivery (HD radio, RDS, digital radio, etc.). Back to the subject of variety hit formats. Variety hits formats seem to work if programmed well and specifically for a market that doesn't have enough variety on enough radio signals. Its success is better in medium to small markets. But major markets like here in Chicago, if you hear a song or a jock that you don't like, then all you have to do is switch the station. If you want to listen to alternative, where do you go? Q101. You could listen to all the alternative music you want until you have the urge to listen to oldies music. That's when you switch to True Oldies or Real Oldies, listen all you want, until you have the urge to listen to hip-hop. No lack of stations here. Now I have the urge to listen to rock, so I'll tune into The Loop. Wow, I'm in the mood to hear dance hits. So I'm going to tune to... uh.... hmmm. Okay, let's listen to active rock instead. Uh.... ahem. Variety hits formats will only attract samples of occasional listeners in major markets but will not compel them to stay. I just can't believe that there are enough listeners out there who will enjoy listening to Metallica next to Ace of Base next to Rupert Holmes next to J. Geils Band next to Men Without Hats next to Black Eyed Peas. You're bound to run into a song that loses that listener to another station, or even worse, their own CDs and iPod players. I can't see how you could build any TSL on that model. Eventually, how could you convince an advertiser to spend money on spots that will run on a station that can't offer any assurances that the listeners will even stay longer than 15 minutes at a time? Is it me just having a "corporate radio" mentality, or am I being realistic? Again, I would love to hear the counterviews on this.

 

[OldiesCat1]

PERSONALLY I think the Jack premise is fine but most of the actual "Jack" franchise stations are TOO wide. Go look at the hour-by-hours of stations like KPKX in Phoenix, WARH St Louis, WLUE in Louisville, Bob in Austin; those music mixes seem to make sense- quite a wide era spread but without all the way-out-there genres, which are definitely turn-offs. You bring up Metallica- good example, along with Beastie Boys, that I consider fringe music. You can put some of the country-to-pop crossover stuff like Shania or Tim McGraw in with those. Escape and Centerfold and The Safety Dance are all fine, IMHO, along with mid '70s to late '80s classic hits type titles, the mainstream '90s like Sheryl Crow, Dave Matthews and Matchbox Twenty and a few of today's choice currents and re-currents. No metal, no rap, no country because those genres are too polarizing.I also don't think market size has any bearing- but I do agree each station must be custom fit for it's individual market. Anybody who thinks this (or any other format) can be a "plug it in anywhere" proposition is w-r-o-n-g.(moderator edit).

 

[Jammerz]

Correct. No format is cookie-cutter and can be expected to work in just any market. All stations must adjust to their market accordingly. Ultimately, it's the programming that decides the station's fate. I've peeked at JACK-FM Chicago's playlist. Well over a thousand titles in its library, with its top rotated songs including Four Seasons "December 1963 (Oh What A Night)", Journey, Whitesnake, Daniel Powter "Bad Day", Lynryd Skynrd "Sweet Home Alabama", Abba, Yaz "Only You", Van Halen, and Kim Carnes. Guess I find it too strange to see Black Sabbath and Scorpions at the same station as Abba, Donna Summer, and Elton John. Meanwhile, with its weaker signal trimulcast, NINE-FM seems to have a much more female-friendly and younger variety. Also well over a thousand titles in its library, with its top rotated songs including Rihanna "SOS", Shakira "Hips Don't Lie", Daniel Powter "Bad Day", Madonna "Sorry", Nickelback "Savin' Me", Fort Minor "Where'd You Go", Bodyrockers "I Like The Way", etc. This station is at least more focused, but it certainly hasn't broken out in ratings or revenue. Though it may or may not be doing well within its target demo, in persons 12+, JACK-FM is an underperformer and a disappointment. Of all the major FM sticks, only WCKG is worse. (And don't even get me started on WCKG.) There are several suburban stations that enjoy higher to closer ratings than JACK-FM! In any case, JACK-FM's programming is certainly not making waves in Chicago. It almost seems like a waste of a great major market signal.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Though it may or may not be doing well within its target demo, in persons 12+, JACK-FM is an underperformer and a disappointment. Of all the major FM sticks, only WCKG is worse. (And don't even get me started on WCKG.) There are several suburban stations that enjoy higher to closer ratings than JACK-FM! In any case, JACK-FM's programming is certainly not making waves in Chicago. It almost seems like a waste of a great major market signal.

Again- hung up on Chicago and NY. The format is doing well in dozens of markets, so it may not be a bad idea to take a little time and do some homework so you can discuss the topic with an informed point of reference.And, NOBODY guages a station's success on 12+. There are stations all over the country who are out of the top 10 12+but thriving 18-34, 18-49, 25-54. The real world of radio rarely even peeks at 12+ and nobody makes strategic or tactical decisions looking at 12+.

 

[Jammerz]

Eager to pounce on ruining my credibility to defend your favorite format, huh? And we were getting along so civil and well...Contrary to opinion of those who want to claim that they know everything about radio and sales, there is value to Persons 12+ ratings. Local businesses pondering the possibility of advertising on radio do not have initial access to the specific breakdowns. They see the 12+ numbers in the local newspapers, and some make their decision to advertise using those very numbers. Are the 12+ numbers the absolute pass/fail grade for a station? Of course, absolutely not! Since we can't discuss specific numbers in specific demo breakdowns on this message forum (Radio-Info does not have the license to publish specific ratings information.), I referred to publicly-accessible numbers that everyone here could use and confirm. My, my, my. I guess I was just too damn considerate.Hung up on Chicago? Well, of course! We are discussing JACK-FM WJMK CHICAGO, aren't we? This is the CHICAGO board, isn't it? We were discussing its performance HERE. I could have sworn that I did write that variety hits formats could perform well in other markets if programmed correctly. Let's see what I wrote just a few responses ago: Variety hits formats seem to work if programmed well and specifically for a market that doesn't have enough variety on enough radio signals. Its success is better in medium to small markets.Wow. Sounds like I conceded that JACK-FM could work-- in the right market. But just because it works in other markets does not mean it works here. Whoa... deja vu. I could have sworn I read someone write the following: Anybody who thinks this (or any other format) can be a "plug it in anywhere" proposition is w-r-o-n-g.Sorry. It seems I'm getting too defensive here. But even you started the thread pointing out that WJMK was sinking in 25-54. What was your point of starting the thread?

 

[OldiesCat1]

Eager to pounce on ruining my credibility to defend your favorite format, huh? And we were getting along so civil and well...Contrary to opinion of those who want to claim that they know everything about radio and sales, there is value to Persons 12+ ratings. Local businesses pondering the possibility of advertising on radio do not have initial access to the specific breakdowns. They see the 12+ numbers in the local newspapers, and some make their decision to advertise using those very numbers. Are the 12+ numbers the absolute pass/fail grade for a station? Of course, absolutely not! Sorry. It seems I'm getting too defensive here. But even you started the thread pointing out that WJMK was sinking in 25-54. What was your point of starting the thread?

I don't read you as "defensive"- spirited discourse is how ideas are considered.I stand by my statement on 12+. Even IF a local paper publishes 12+ local ratings, the total effect on advertising is zilch. In 1977, maybe it was given some big-picture consideration. Honestly, today most in our industry laugh at anybody quoting 12+.If you'd like to Email me, I'd be happy to share specific demos. The discussion did start about Jack in Chicago but you did address the format's potential nationwide, so I responded. What bothers me is the "Anti-Jack" club hating the format for paranoid reasons. No radio format is for everybody, but the Jack Haters (like the screw loose who posted before this) try to make Jack appear to be a failing cure-all for radio- and it was never pitched nor designed to be that. About 99% Jack haters are driven by their own insecurities and their perspectives on why they don't like it are very personal and mean-spirited vs. why it may not work strategically OR (how about this) a BETTER IDEA on how to make it work or about a fresh, new format. I always love these loudmouths who trash radio for not trying new things but as soon as somebody tries a fresh approach, they assail it as "this isn't how radio should be done- no jocks, the variety is too wide, the imaging is this and that". It's easy to bitch about something without a better idea and it's THAT thinking that will get satellite into more and more homes & cars faster.

 

[musicloverII]

You stated... "I stand by my statement"Spoken like a true idealogue. No matter what. [EDIT]You act like there's some conspiracy against your "jack" as "jack haters" just want to ruin your right to bad radio. Many of us don't give a ------ if they play Tiny Tim all day long, if that's what people wanted we'd be behind it. IT'S NOT. In the markets that pay SALARIES to EMPLOYEES, like Chicago, NYC and soon to be others Jack is FAILING, it's falling or stagnating. The format's idea is great for novices who stutter and can't or shouldn't talk on the radio. MAJOR MARKETS deserve personality to some degree and just because the bleeding civ known as CBS, Infinity or whatever Mel left it as (bleeding thanks to him and now bleeding and destroying Sirius as well, what a path of destruction he leaves) needs to increase shareholder value doesn't mean listeners will help them do that. Throw in the towel, get out of the Turkish baths, Jack's a joke and the joke's on you. Like I said over and over and over and over and over... it's small town radio, "grab a disc, play it... what's that CD? I don't know, gimme it, but it's the Pink Panther theme? no biggie, we'll play it. For people with limited variety or people who've only been exposed to what major labels rammed down their throats in the past... Jack's fine, that's why it does so good in those "Open House Party Markets". It's small time, you can relate to that in more ways than one i"m sure.[/quote][EDIT*= Derogatory comment]

 

[Jammerz]

I'm not attacking you, nor am I attacking the format and wishing its demise. It is certainly viable in some markets, and if I had a smaller market radio station, I wouldn't put the format out of consideration if there is enough potential money involved. I was considering the possibility that it just doesn't have much impact here. I'm also not in full agreement with some of the reasoning that came out when the JACK-FM concept debuted. We all have a right to our own opinion. You're defending JACK-FM as a national format, which is fine. I was trying to move the discussion back to the focus of WJMK. This is similar to how people have pointed at me as a 'champion' of dance radio (especially here in Chicago), and I have to sit there defending why I know the format works in certain markets. Meanwhile, people criticize the format and try to deny its viability. And I tell them that I believe that the programming of a lot of dance radio stations for the past several years have been off-target, but the format works if executed correctly and specifically to the market it serves. There is no national "cure-all" format that you could plug in and wait for the great results. Same scenario. I still don't understand why you started this thread, pointing out WJMK's sagging ratings when you're an ardent supporter of the JACK-FM format. Almost seems counter-productive to your 'cause'. Do you believe that WJMK's programming is off? Why do you think WJMK's ratings are where they are today?By the way, thank you for your kind offer. The gesture is appreciated, but I also have my own resources as well.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Jack-Chi

(my "blah blah blah" was directed at Mr. Bitter Beer Face, aka musicloverII). I started the Jack-Chicago thread merely as an observation. When the direction began to turn into another "Jack sucks" thread, I merely intended to point out misinformation and incorrect assumptions.

 

[davideduardo]

In the markets that pay SALARIES to EMPLOYEES, like Chicago, NYC and soon to be others Jack is FAILING, it's falling or stagnating. The format's idea is great for novices who stutter and can't or shouldn't talk on the radio. MAJOR MARKETS deserve personality to some degree and just because the bleeding civ known as CBS, Infinity or whatever Mel left it as (bleeding thanks to him and now bleeding and destroying Sirius as well, what a path of destruction he leaves) needs to increase shareholder value doesn't mean listeners will help them do that. Throw in the towel, get out of the Turkish baths, Jack's a joke and the joke's on you. Like I said over and over and over and over and over... it's small town radio, "grab a disc, play it... what's that CD? I don't know, gimme it, but it's the Pink Panther theme? no biggie, we'll play it. For people with limited variety or people who've only been exposed to what major labels rammed down their throats in the past... Jack's fine, that's why it does so good in those "Open House Party Markets". It's small time, you can relate to that in more ways than one i"m sure.

[/quote]In LA, Jack has great ratings... excluding the Spanish language stations, it is the top English 25-54 player in town. What they have is Kevin, who is very good at editing the music flow for the right number of nice segues and also the right number of train wrecks to enhance the variety feel. He also makes the production zing, and they have production guys in the studio to do a lot of topical, time sensitive "between the songs" stuff that sound really terrific. LA is not a small time market. On the other hand, what Jack isn't is a collection of jocks cracking the mike to say nothing. Research is revealing a large pool of listeners or potential listeners who despise jocks and do not want to hear them talk. Jack in LA did not eliminate jocks to save money. They did it because there is a large niche for that music with no talk.

 

[OldiesCat1]

Jack

I second that emotion.

 

[rockandroll]

Not that I am a big fan of Jack, but check out Louie in Lousiville, they are doing OK and they have jocks. I think the jocks make the difference. :

 

[the golden boy]

I am a supporter of Jack FM and have been for quite some time. I, too, wish that Jack was doing better in Chicago and New York, but I don't have the answers as to how they could, if it can do any better at all. In the case of New York, perhaps, it could be that people are still ticked that WCBS-FM's oldies format was replaced with Jack. I'm willing to bet that the same results would've happened if WCBS-FM replaced the oldies with adult contemporary or CHR. Replacing a popular station usually turns out disastrous at the start. While the Jack detractors have the right to feel how they want to feel, some were already declaring it a disaster from the start and were predicting format changes in six months. I'm afraid, too, that the disappointing numbers in Chicago and New York are giving detractors ammunition to declare it a national failure, despite that fact that Jack is doing well in other places like Los Angeles and Nashville. Detractors will also have a field day the day that a Jack station changes format and they will say something like, "See, we told you it wouldn't work."Since Jack/variety hits is relatively new to American radio, it still needs more time to see where its future is headed. In five years from now, we could be talking about Jack/VH as a fad to reflect on and laugh at, or it could still be a player in markets all across the U.S. We'll see.

 

[djdanska]

If they would program jack like it was supposed to be, it would be much better. I feel this is nothing but a half-a** attempt. I don't mind 9fm. Jack just irritates me. Play a true variety.

 

[dave73]

I gave a chance when it first came out, and it turned me off. I don't like listening to liners that sounds like they don't give a rat's a**. Even Nine FM is getting annoying with some of their liners. At home during the summertime, I rarely listen to Nine FM due to getting bleedover from WHFB Benton Harbor Michigan. I usually listen to it at work in Lowell Indiana, where it's heard the best. At home, I tend to listen to my Sirius satellite radio a lot more. In Chicago, if the variety format did to the other stations is force them to tweak their own formats. Some have done better in ratings since responding to the variety format. WTMX is an example, though they have no real competition.