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Jack FM 'down the drain' in latest NYC ratings

WNEW

> No doubt about that. And somebody commented that at least
> WNEW is up. How embarrassing that has to be, a perrenial
> dog like WNEW beating CBS-FM.
>
> Yecch.
>

WNEW was a dog these past few years, but now I don't think they are. I've been listening a lot lately and they're sounding pretty good. Things are looking up for them. <P ID="signature">______________
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Adult Hits

> OK, let's look at the entire country's Jack/V.H. station
> scorecard:
>
> L.A.- #1 25-54
> Nashville- #1 25-54
> Indianapolis- #1 25-54
> Minneapolis- Top 5 25-54
> St. Louis- #1 25-54
> Phoenix- #2 25-54
> Seattle- Top 5 25-54
> Dallas- Top 7 25-54
> Baltimore- Top 8 25-54
> Austin- #2 25-54
>
> And those are just the stations who've been on for more than
> a few months.
> I could keep going, but it's pretty obvious that other than
> New York and just
> a few other markets where Jack has been on for more than a
> few months, Jack is
> doing very well.

Obviously Adult Hits is doing very well in many markets, but we can't get too ahead of ourselves Cat. The format is still new and it is too early to call it an "official" success. Like you have said, Adult Hits is in its honeymoon period.
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Re: NYC ratings

> > > All that aside, however- Jack isn't a "fad" format.
> Look
> > > all over the country- in nearly every market it's on,
> it's
> >
> > > not only doing well, it's doing GREAT. NYC is the
> > exception
> > > and it can all be chalked up to HOW the whole saga
> > happened.
> >
> > I don't think you can say that at all. I would NOT call
> the
> > Denver Jack (first one in the U.S. and now on the air for
> > two years) or the Chicago Jack (still pretty new)
> successful
> > at all. Even beyond that, the history shows that after
> the
> > massive TV and marketing barrage is over initially, it
> > doesn't necessarily hold its numbers. Dallas Jack has
> been
> > having those problems.
> >
> > I need to do a little more research on the others but I
> > think you very much overstate your point. I will grant
> you
> > that L.A. is doing very well.. and this is because Kevin
> > Weatherly is very sharp and is tailoring it smartly in a
> > city with a large transient population. And if you
> observe
> > it, the marketing is quite a bit different from the
> others.
> >
> > And then there are the clones... a lot of duds out there
> > including Entercom's Mike in Boston and Charlie in
> Portland,
> > and Bonneville's horrible Max in San Francisco.
> >
>
>
> Keep in mind that the Denver Jack is in Fort Collins CO. The
> signal doesn't fully cover the Denver market. From what I
> understand the signal sounds better in Cheyenne Wyoming than
> it does in the Southern half of the Denver metro.
>
> I do agree that Jack and it's copycats are seeing a wide
> range of success and failures. While you listed most of the
> duds, you left out some of the success stories such as
> Jack/Nashville and the Arch/St Louis.
>
> As for NYC, an additional reason for it's rough start could
> be sister station WXRK. Jack might be doing better if XRK
> was still alternative. Their current format might be too
> close to Jack, especially since the NY Jack leans
> rock,perhaps in an effort to distance themselves from Mix?
>

You bring up some good points. I would think it is an effort to distance themselves from Mix. Jack is probably targeting PLJ the most.
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Re: NYC ratings

> > I think you misinterpreted what I'm saying. You're right
> > it's not as simple as frequencies- it's how those
> > frequencies were/are being used. Their feeling was that
> if
> > they put Jack on 102.7, it would be just another doomed
> > format on a doomed frequency and they'd not have gotten
> much
> > bang for their buck from a PR angle. Unfortunately, they
> > got a TON of PR by putting Jack on 101.1 but it was all
> BAD
> > PR and I truly don't think they counted on that. They
> could
> > have saved themselves by bringing the Oldies back on
> another
> > frequency ("we listened to you, New York!") but pride
> often
> > gets in the way. Now, it's too late.
>
> If they put CBS-FM back on the air, which I think they will
> end up doing by Summer 2006, they'll be forgiven.

Not happening. Aerosmith: "Dream On"
>
> > Most of the blame, and I've been very outspoken about
> this,
> > does fall to Viacom/Infinity for the way they botched this
>
> > whole thing.
>
> I assume 'botched' you mean putting Jack on in the first
> place, right?
>
>
> > In Dallas, they're Top 7 25-54 (hardly "luster fading")
>
> It is when you were once top three.

I agree with you on this. From being in the Top 3 falling to 7, isn't good. Its like WLTW falling to 7. CC would be devestated I bet.
>
>
> > in Chicago, it's just too early to tell (though until
> Phase
> > 3 of the Summer book, they'd been on a slow but consistent
>
> > rise 25-54).
>
> Look at the history of Jack stations. It's clear that if
> they don't get a big spie in the beginning, there's nothing
> to be had in terms of ratings.
>
>
> It is way, WAY too early in this game to start
> > talking about sophomore slumps, especially when most
> > Jack-type stations have been on-air less than a year.
>
> When I say 'sopohomore slumps' I mean that in the
> second-year sense. It's fair game in Dallas and Denver.

Sophomore slumps would be appropriate to use for Dallas and Denver since both of those stations are in its 2nd year.
>
>
> > My suspicion is that had just about any other station in
> NY
> > (other than the top 5 or so biggies) flipped to Jack, the
> > negative feelings toward the format would be far less.
>
> How about maybe that New York listeners don't like such a
> cookie-cutter format?

It seems like New Yorkers go the "safe route". Cookie Cutter may be fine with them.
>
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Jack FM

I agree. They don't have the guts.
>
> K Rock's days are numbered, they should flip that station to
> oldies, but its not happening.
>
> >
> >
> > > Down the drain, it's dramaticly for Jack FM. What are
> they
> >
> > > going to do with this ratings. This is not good.
> > >
> >
>
 
Adult Hits

But if you think about how radio works, remember that it's usually more difficult for a new radio station to make quick inroads because people are generally hesitant to change habits. The existing/incumbent stations always have the advantage of habit, comfort and familiarity.

That many (most) of these Jack-type stations have made such a spash so quickly is surprising to me. I'm not sure I really believe in these "honeymoon periods" these days. They either like it or they probably don't- if their Programmers can continually find ways to keep it sounding fresh, they'll be fine. If they allow it to become stale, the growth will slow.


>
> Obviously Adult Hits is doing very well in many markets, but
> we can't get too ahead of ourselves Cat. The format is still
> new and it is too early to call it an "official" success.
> Like you have said, Adult Hits is in its honeymoon period.
> >
>
 
Jack-agencies

> The proof in the pudding will be how those stations are
> doing in 12-18 months. Ad agencies are going to be skeptical until then.

***the information I'm getting is that ad agencies LOVE the Jack stations. To them, it's much hipper and "now" than, for instance, the Oldies station was to them. That's half the battle and right now Jack is apparently winning over the "agency geeks" in huge numbers.


> Sure, some of these stations will enjoy some short-term
> success, but there are indications that some of these
> markets will not hae these numbers this time next year.


***What indicators are you referring to that Jack's numbers in some of these markets will be lower a year from now?
 
NYC

> I assume 'botched' you mean putting Jack on in the first place, right?

***Not at all. They just picked the wrong station to flip, then when (if) they realize they screwed-up big time, they failed to respond.


> It is when you were once top three(Dallas).

***I don't buy that. They're #7 25-54, which is very healthy. What radio station in America can you name that never goes up and down- they all do, all the time. I know about 30 other stations in Dallas who'd gladly trade their
25-54 rank with Jack's.


> Look at the history of Jack stations. It's clear that if
> they don't get a big spie in the beginning, there's nothing
> to be had in terms of ratings.

***WHAT HISTORY? Most have been on-the-air less than six months. At this point, you can't draw any good conclusions from such a short "history".
>

> How about maybe that New York listeners don't like such cookie-cutter format?

***Real world calling. Nobody in NY thinks it's a "cookie-cutter" format except for radio people. We live in a much more media-savvy world than everyday listeners do- they have no knowledge or concept of "cookie-cutter radio", especially since the only Jack 99.9% of New Yorkers have ever heard or heard of is at 101.1 FM.
 
Re: NYC ratings

Sorry, my friend- it's not at all the same. WLTW has been a perennial #1 for year after year in NYC. Jack in Dallas has never been near that point, so it's not the same at all.

There are the WLTWs and WJRs and the KMOX heritage stations who are always at or near the top in their markets- it's not a fair comparison to make to a fairly new, up-and-coming station.


> I agree with you on this. From being in the Top 3 falling to
> 7, isn't good. Its like WLTW falling to 7. CC would be
> devestated I bet.
 
Re: Jack FM 'down the drain'

> > they'd be idiots to give up on it at this point, but they
> > totally, 100% botched this one. They are at a point of no
>
> > return and the 3rd trend of the book did show an increase
> > (who knows if that's a trend or just a luck-out). They
> > really have no choice now but to stay the course and be
> > super-extra patient. They shot themselves in the foot and
>
> > this wound will take a long time to heal.
> >
> > Had they brought Oldies back to another freq, they could
> > have saved the day. Problem with that premise: it made
> > sense.
>
> K Rock's days are numbered, they should flip that station to
> oldies, but its not happening.
>
> Krock's holding it's own, when Stern goes of course they will take a big hit but they will still be better nubers and billing wise than Jack.
 
Re: NYC ratings

> Totally disagree.
>
> Biggest factor in all this is how Viacom orchestrated it-
> very, very badly. They certainly flipped the wrong station
> and I suspect that if they'd flipped another (102.7 or 92.3)
> they wouldn't have created so much bad will for 101.1 FM.
> At this point, it's too late to go back so they may as well
> chew on the humble pie and hope New Yorkers can get past the
> fact they blew up a radio station many loved.
>
> All that aside, however- Jack isn't a "fad" format. Look
> all over the country- in nearly every market it's on, it's
> not only doing well, it's doing GREAT. NYC is the exception
> and it can all be chalked up to HOW the whole saga happened.
>
FAD, period. It is Jammin oldies where many jumped on the bandwagon before it was even proven anywhere else, its a fad man, period.
 
Re: NYC ratings

> OK, let's look at the entire country's Jack/V.H. station
> scorecard:
>
> L.A.- #1 25-54
> Nashville- #1 25-54
> Indianapolis- #1 25-54
> Minneapolis- Top 5 25-54
> St. Louis- #1 25-54
> Phoenix- #2 25-54
> Seattle- Top 5 25-54
> Dallas- Top 7 25-54
> Baltimore- Top 8 25-54
> Austin- #2 25-54
>
> And those are just the stations who've been on for more than
> a few months.
> I could keep going, but it's pretty obvious that other than
> New York and just
> a few other markets where Jack has been on for more than a
> few months, Jack is
> doing very well.
>

You are completely off the mark because the very definition of a fad format is one thatc omes on and racks up huge numbers intially then everyone else sees it and jumps on the bandwagon, yet the format in the long run has no legs. The stations you've posted are exactly what Im gtalking about Jack LA is not even a year old, what part of fad are you condused about man?.
>
> >
> > I don't think you can say that at all. I would NOT call
> the
> > Denver Jack (first one in the U.S. and now on the air for
> > two years) or the Chicago Jack (still pretty new)
> successful
> > at all. Even beyond that, the history shows that after
> the
> > massive TV and marketing barrage is over initially, it
> > doesn't necessarily hold its numbers. Dallas Jack has
> been
> > having those problems.
> >
> > I need to do a little more research on the others but I
> > think you very much overstate your point. I will grant
> you
> > that L.A. is doing very well.. and this is because Kevin
> > Weatherly is very sharp and is tailoring it smartly in a
> > city with a large transient population. And if you
> observe
> > it, the marketing is quite a bit different from the
> others.
> >
> > And then there are the clones... a lot of duds out there
> > including Entercom's Mike in Boston and Charlie in
> Portland,
> > and Bonneville's horrible Max in San Francisco.
> >
>
 
Re: Jack-agencies

> > The proof in the pudding will be how those stations are
> > doing in 12-18 months. Ad agencies are going to be
> skeptical until then.
>
> ***the information I'm getting is that ad agencies LOVE the
> Jack stations. To them, it's much hipper and "now" than,
> for instance, the Oldies station was to them. That's half
> the battle and right now Jack is apparently winning over the
> "agency geeks" in huge numbers.
> THEN the agency geeks better go out and start buying the products they advertise cos NO ONE else will! WBZO FM "Oldies" on Long Island is BOOMING thanks to the CBS FM fiasco! Good for WBZO!
>
> > Sure, some of these stations will enjoy some short-term
> > success, but there are indications that some of these
> > markets will not hae these numbers this time next year.
>
>
> ***What indicators are you referring to that Jack's numbers
> in some of these markets will be lower a year from now?
>
 
Re: NYC ratings

> Sorry, my friend- it's not at all the same. WLTW has been a
> perennial #1 for year after year in NYC. Jack in Dallas has
> never been near that point, so it's not the same at all.
>
> There are the WLTWs and WJRs and the KMOX heritage stations
> who are always at or near the top in their markets- it's not
> a fair comparison to make to a fairly new, up-and-coming
> station.

I guess you're right about comparing heritage and new stations, but dropping from the Top 3 after being in the Top 3 consistently for about a year to a 7 hurts a little, at least the owners may be hurting. Thats a few places down.
>
>
> > I agree with you on this. From being in the Top 3 falling
> to
> > 7, isn't good. Its like WLTW falling to 7. CC would be
> > devestated I bet.
>
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Fad?

> >

We'll see in a year or so if this is a fad format.

> FAD, period. It is Jammin oldies where many jumped on the
> bandwagon before it was even proven anywhere else, its a fad
> man, period.
>
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Local Oldies

> > > The proof in the pudding will be how those stations are
> > > doing in 12-18 months. Ad agencies are going to be
> > skeptical until then.
> >
> > ***the information I'm getting is that ad agencies LOVE
> the
> > Jack stations. To them, it's much hipper and "now" than,
> > for instance, the Oldies station was to them. That's half
>
> > the battle and right now Jack is apparently winning over
> the
> > "agency geeks" in huge numbers.
> > THEN the agency geeks better go out and start buying the
> products they advertise cos NO ONE else will! WBZO FM
> "Oldies" on Long Island is BOOMING thanks to the CBS FM
> fiasco! Good for WBZO!

WLNG is oldies also and has always done well, but very true local oldies stations normally can do well, even with pre 1964 music. Its all about localism.

> >
>>
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Jammin' mutt format

Not the same- no Jammin' Oldies station ever had close to any of the success as today's most successful Jack stations. Never, EVER.
> >
> FAD, period. It is Jammin oldies where many jumped on the
> bandwagon before it was even proven anywhere else, its a fad man, period.
>
 
a fad?

It's only a "fad" if the success doesn't last.

Six or seven years ago, critics were calling reality TV shows a "fad"- they didn't all make it big but there are enough successful reality television shows racking up good ratings that nobody but nobody calls it a "fad" anymore.

If in a couple of years JACK dies off on most of it's current stations, then you're right.

BTW- this has been driving me crazy: why when something new is popular, radio geeks tend to brand them a "fad"? Something being a growing and popular trend isn't a "fad" unless the success is fleeting and never really attained. By the numbers in some markets, we may already be past that with Variety Hits.
>
> You are completely off the mark because the very definition
> of a fad format is one thatc omes on and racks up huge
> numbers intially then everyone else sees it and jumps on the
> bandwagon, yet the format in the long run has no legs. The
> stations you've posted are exactly what Im gtalking about
> Jack LA is not even a year old, what part of fad are you
> condused about man?.
> >
> > >
> > > I don't think you can say that at all. I would NOT call
>
> > the
> > > Denver Jack (first one in the U.S. and now on the air
> for
> > > two years) or the Chicago Jack (still pretty new)
> > successful
> > > at all. Even beyond that, the history shows that after
> > the
> > > massive TV and marketing barrage is over initially, it
> > > doesn't necessarily hold its numbers. Dallas Jack has
> > been
> > > having those problems.
> > >
> > > I need to do a little more research on the others but I
> > > think you very much overstate your point. I will grant
> > you
> > > that L.A. is doing very well.. and this is because Kevin
>
> > > Weatherly is very sharp and is tailoring it smartly in a
>
> > > city with a large transient population. And if you
> > observe
> > > it, the marketing is quite a bit different from the
> > others.
> > >
> > > And then there are the clones... a lot of duds out there
>
> > > including Entercom's Mike in Boston and Charlie in
> > Portland,
> > > and Bonneville's horrible Max in San Francisco.
> > >
> >
>
 
NYC ratings

I went back and double-checked: Jack in Dallas' peak 25-54 has been #5. In a market the size of Dallas, if you can consistently be top 10 25-54, you're considered a success (vs. being Top 10 in Savannah or Billings). Trust me, being #7 among about 50 signals is doing very well and nobody is whining about Jack's performance in Dallas.


> I guess you're right about comparing heritage and new
> stations, but dropping from the Top 3 after being in the Top
> 3 consistently for about a year to a 7 hurts a little, at
> least the owners may be hurting. Thats a few places down.
 
Re: Local Oldies

> > > > The proof in the pudding will be how those stations
> are
> > > > doing in 12-18 months. Ad agencies are going to be
> > > skeptical until then.
> > >
> > > ***the information I'm getting is that ad agencies LOVE
> > the
> > > Jack stations. To them, it's much hipper and "now"
> than,
> > > for instance, the Oldies station was to them. That's
> half
> >
> > > the battle and right now Jack is apparently winning over
>
> > the
> > > "agency geeks" in huge numbers.
> > > THEN the agency geeks better go out and start buying the
>
> > products they advertise cos NO ONE else will! WBZO FM
> > "Oldies" on Long Island is BOOMING thanks to the CBS FM
> > fiasco! Good for WBZO!
>
> WLNG is oldies also and has always done well, but very true
> local oldies stations normally can do well, even with pre
> 1964 music. Its all about localism.
>
> > >
> >>
>
Well,Manhattan is 'local' for NYC dwellers,depends on how you define 'local';the Nassau/Suffolk audience is a rather large market,it's not like 'oldies' are a hit in Dingleberry,Idaho!
 
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